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 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah-they've got the OmniScramblers, right? The whole "No setting up within 12 inches" thing?

That's good. That's a good rule.

Yup, and it extends to the entire squad as long as a single Infiltrator is still kicking, so even in mixed teams the Eliminators are also blocking out redeploys. The formation also retains forward deployment and the Phobos keyword which allows for a host of shenanigans (of the WLT, Psychic and stratagem varieties) leaning into the board control / disruptor role. With a single CP they can insta redeploy in turns 2-5 for things like Deploy Scramblers or Engage or whatever your secondaries may need (or simply to line up a better shot on a juicy character target).

 JNAProductions wrote:

Rivener wrote:
A Deathwatch Spectrus Kill Team with 5 Eliminators using Mortis Rounds while within range of the RR1’s to-hit and to-wound auras can plausibly pop a guy a turn, but the dice must be with you.

Running the numbers...

5 shots
175/36 hits, which adds 1,225/1,296 Mortal Wounds
1,225/324 wounds against T3 and T4, 1,225/432 against T5
2,450/972 or 1,225/486 unsaved against T3/4; 2,450/1,296 or 1,225/648 against T5
1,225/243 damage against T3/4, 1,225/324 against T5

So that's roughly 6 damage to a T3/4 target, a little under 5 to a T5 target. And considering Deathwatch have great access to RR1s to-hit and to-wound, seems viable to me. This assumes a 3+/5++, by the way-adjust damage by 3/4ths (not counting the mortal) for a 4++.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Deathmarks are outstanding. Str 5 ap-2 with mortals on 6's to wound and they hit on 2's. Between them and Ctans. Crons probably have the best anti character build which is also doubly good against elite infantry with high inuve saves as well. Yeah. It is Viable.

I mean, compared to the Eliminators at 30 PPM (assuming you need/want the other 5 Spectrus dudes already, otherwise, if they're considered deadweight, the much less shiny 54 PPM)...

Oh wow, Deathmarks are only 18 PPM? Neat. So they are, per shot...

1 shot
5/6 hits, for 5/36 Mortal Wounds
10/18 or 5/9 against T3/4, 5/12 against T5
20/54 or 10/27 against T3/4, 10/36 or 5/18 against T5

About half a point of damage per shot to T3/4, about 2/5ths against T5.

That's a little less than half as effective as the Eliminators. So I'd rate Eliminators higher on raw firepower, at the very least.

Raw perhaps - but less consistent and will less total potential mortal damage. Also 2 on demand stratas for crons. Ignore cover which will work for thw hole phase and also 6's to hit auto wound for gauss + and ability to make another hit auto would. Before even factoring in dynasty traits or protocols. True marines also have some good traits BUT overall a 3 man unit with 2 wounds is a lot easier to remove than t5 1 wound models with reanimation. Durability is a big factor in why the deathmarks are a better choice.

The vindicare can sometimes do good work. Id leave most others at home.

If you’re solely factoring in the number of shots, I think you’re overlooking other benefits.

Whilst it is unlikely any given Sniper unit could drop any given character in a single round of shooting, the potential remains.

Just by having them on the field, ideally in a solid firing position, you’re informing where your opponent’s characters can safely go.

If they’ve leaned heavily into Buff Bubbles? That’s a fair amount of control you’ve just leveraged, even if the never really bother targeting enemy characters.

They can also pay dividends later in the game, knocking remaining wounds off etc.

Best assasin right now in my opinion is a Squad of 10 Allarus Terminators, DSing into RF range of a character, shooting 40 (With strat) S4 AP1 D2 shots into a character, and then 10d3 shots of S4 AP3 D1 shots into the same character. They can also character target. And then they charge, use slayer of tyrants, and engage in melee, which is 40 attacks at S8 or 40 attacks at S6 With +1 to wound, ap 2 Dd3 damage. Any character in the game that survives that save Mortarion can't be killed, and you need to run, because it's immortal, and now it's mad.

I get some good use of out Deathmarks. They're good at picking off supporting crew, like Banners or psychers, can intercept reserves by shooting them with the stratagem, and they're harder to kill than some give them credit for with their Toughness 5, 3+ save and RP. They have their issues, mind you, but at least they have the CORE keyword.

The most viable sniper probably isn't the mathematically most efficient, rather the one you would like to have in your force anyway (i.e. custodes terminators are good regardless of sniping). That said, the mathematical king of snipers is the AM command squad, 33 points for 4 rifles.

Shooting at your generic T4/3+/4++ marine captain I get:
Astra militarum command squad: 25.5 points per 1 damage inflicted (would take 3 full units for a reasonable chance to kill - 99 points)
Eliminators: 43.2 points per 1 damage
Deathmarks: 43.2 points per 1 damage
Vindicare: 51.4 points per 1 damage (this is adjusting for deadshot and headshot averages, so is subject to the most variance)
Marine Scouts: 56.2 points per 1 damage

AM can easily push the efficiency even higher as Cadian regiment/orders/old grudges can increase chance of damage, or rope in vet squads for even more rifles.

Admech Arquebus Rangers pop up once in a while within effective tournament lists. If you include the Raiders as a Sniper unit, as they have the ability to target characters and generate mortal wounds, then they're an absolute powerhouse.

 Argive wrote:
WHat do they slot in as ?

Coz running a patrol + battalion is not abad way to set up an army and still have sort of okayish CP.

But yeah I think vindicare with its headhsot rule (the MW one) is by far the best sniper unit.

They don't use any slot.

 Techpriest_ wrote:
Admech Arquebus Rangers pop up once in a while within effective tournament lists. If you include the Raiders as a Sniper unit, as they have the ability to target characters and generate mortal wounds, then they're an absolute powerhouse.

S7 sniper shots and a troop choice. Indeed, there is much to like in them

Audustum wrote:

 Argive wrote:
WHat do they slot in as ?

Coz running a patrol + battalion is not abad way to set up an army and still have sort of okayish CP.

But yeah I think vindicare with its headhsot rule (the MW one) is by far the best sniper unit.

They don't use any slot.

Those guys are mean. I think taking two as imperials could do the work.. The LOS rules now maybe favour eliminators a bit more.

For a brief moment before Imperial armour compendium I would have said a good sniper unit is a wraith seer with EC and d cannon + Mark of hunter trait.
Alas. 24" LOs ignoring ST10 D3 -4 D6d shots with EC rerolls.

A Dreaming Shadow Death Jester equipped with Cegorach's Lament and The Jest Inescapable pivotal role, using the stratagem An Example Made. That's 3 shots at 48" with a BS of 2+. Each hit roll of 2-5 causes two hits, each roll of 6 causes 3 hits. Strength 6, AP-3, all wound rolls of 6 cause an additional mortal wound. The target cannot get cover bonus to saving throw. Not bad for 50 points + 1 CP.

For 310 points + 2 CP you can annihilate characters with a Dark Creed Coven Tantalus.

 Oaka wrote:
A Dreaming Shadow Death Jester equipped with Cegorach's Lament and The Jest Inescapable pivotal role, using the stratagem An Example Made. That's 3 shots at 48" with a BS of 2+. Each hit roll of 2-5 causes two hits, each roll of 6 causes 3 hits. Strength 6, AP-3, all wound rolls of 6 cause an additional mortal wound. The target cannot get cover bonus to saving throw. Not bad for 50 points + 1 CP.

For 310 points + 2 CP you can annihilate characters with a Dark Creed Coven Tantalus.

Hasnt the jester combo been nerfed ?

Maybe, I'm running through the rules on the app.

I think one shouldn't underestimate out of phase sniper action -- I use a combo of castigate (inquisition psyker) and then malstrom (gaurd psyker) to soften up (or maybe drop) an enemy's characters before shooting kicks off.

Also, unlike actual snipers, you aren't targeting with shooting -- so company veterans don't simply negate all your firepower by existing (even if they are untargetably tucked behind LOS blocking cover, but still 2.9 inches away, from the target.)

I think it also dpends entirly on what you are firing at. A warlock is T3 2W 4++ .. Any sniper dedicated unit in the game can kill it.

 Blackie wrote:
Orks and Adepta Sororitas don't have snipers. Drukhari have just a weapon that could be added to an Haemonculus or a unit of Wracks that can bypass the Look Out Sir Rule but they don't have a unit of snipers or a character that is really good in that job.

I haven't played snipers in over 20 years of 40k. Not once. Among the 5 factions I've played since 3rd edition only Harlequins had a sniper and I've always considered it pretty meh, so I never played it, and Space Wolves with their scouts which I also never liked. Not interested in Primaris.

I still consider snipers a luxury, they can be completely avoided without regrets.

I mean, technically Orks do? But it is so RNG reliant it's crazy. Giving a shokk mek opportunist then using Da jump on him can give you the ability to fire that potentially powerful gun at a character. You could either ruffle the hair of the toughest characters, or blow them off the map. So, a maybe? (the loss of the relic shokka does drop the likleyhood of a kill though.)

I can't speak to the cost effectiveness of snipers as I have none (in my Sororitas army), but I've been held in check in terms if movement, deployment, and battle plan (due to my slightly squishy and very aura-dependent army) by a single Vindicare and 10 Ratlings. Even when they don't make their points back, they bottleneck my play, force me to slow down and cling to LoS blockers, and limit the utility of my bodyguard units. I'd take a Vindi in a heartbeat just for that effect alone.

 MacPhail wrote:
I can't speak to the cost effectiveness of snipers as I have none (in my Sororitas army), but I've been held in check in terms if movement, deployment, and battle plan (due to my slightly squishy and very aura-dependent army) by a single Vindicare and 10 Ratlings. Even when they don't make their points back, they bottleneck my play, force me to slow down and cling to LoS blockers, and limit the utility of my bodyguard units. I'd take a Vindi in a heartbeat just for that effect alone.

Doesn’t the vindi prevent gaining the bonuses for a « pure » army ?

 addnid wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I can't speak to the cost effectiveness of snipers as I have none (in my Sororitas army), but I've been held in check in terms if movement, deployment, and battle plan (due to my slightly squishy and very aura-dependent army) by a single Vindicare and 10 Ratlings. Even when they don't make their points back, they bottleneck my play, force me to slow down and cling to LoS blockers, and limit the utility of my bodyguard units. I'd take a Vindi in a heartbeat just for that effect alone.

Doesn’t the vindi prevent gaining the bonuses for a « pure » army ?

No, assassin's and inquisitors were fixed to not prevent that.

I find Illic Nightspear to be worth taking, usually alongside a group of rangers. They have the versatility of deep strike and rangers are troops (objectives) and protection for illic. the rangers sniper ability is nice but often the don't do much damage more there for points grabbing and harasment. Illic on the other hand with voidbringer is a nail driver for characters, hit on 2's, would on 2's, ap-3 D3 and extra mortal wound on 6 to wound.

I don't think Dark eldar have any useful snipers. Even if you go dark technomancers and boost hex rifles it's not that valid. Oddly the helm of spite wargear item seems to do a lot more damage than hex rifles ever manage. It works like deny the witch except if you succeed in denying the witch the enemy psyker takes perils of the warp. If perils kills the enemy they basically blow up and cause mortal wound around them which can really annoy small units, elite infantry and enemy heroes. It's far better than any sniper ability, wargear item or ability.

It's rather impressive actually. It's definitely caused some of my opponents with psykers in range to choose not to use a psychic power just so they don't blow their brains out their ass and take a nearby chunk of their army with them. Sadly any army without psykers doesn't care and shockingly that's quite a few armies now (admech, dark eldar, custodes, tau and necrons and some others i may have forgotten).

DE doesn't have snipers..... but they have the best snipper in the game.

Tantalus in Dark Creed, 1CP stratagem to target characters. Its only 12 Str 8, -3ap, 2D shots.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
DE doesn't have snipers..... but they have the best snipper in the game.

Tantalus in Dark Creed, 1CP stratagem to target characters. Its only 12 Str 8, -3ap, 2D shots.

For those of us that can afford forge world . Sadly i can't.

A necron overlord with the arrow of eternity makes a potentially very effective sniper.

Once.

1 single shot that will likely be blocked by a single invuln save. I prefer snipers that aren't invalidated by a 50/50 roll. Weight of fire makes for good kills against most characters in 9th. I say for the cost, it kinda depends on the character. SoS can one shot a psyker pretty well, and the Vindy can take out anything 5 wounds or less, pretty effectively.

I saw Sly Marbo used pretty effectively once as well. Popped out from hiding, and shot a SM Captain to death with his double shoot and then charged a wounded Librarian next to him, and stabbed him to death. It was pretty hilarious. And he's only 55 points I think. He gets 6 shots at S5 ap0 D1 that can wound on 2+, attacking he gets 5 S5 AP0 D1 attacks, that wound on 2+. The Explosive trap trick of his is also good for D3/D6 mortals depending on the roll. And then he can disappear again. All that for 55 points.

I often use psykers from different schools of imperium to get several "sniper" style psyker skills that can be stacked on one target, like malstrom + castigate (for example). The result is you can snipe down a character whose invuln shields might otherwise make that difficult -- or you can soften one up so much that the vindicaire can kill it by yawning.

 Matt Swain wrote:
A necron overlord with the arrow of eternity makes a potentially very effective sniper.

Once.

Is there a way to make him target characters?

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I find Illic Nightspear to be worth taking, usually alongside a group of rangers. They have the versatility of deep strike and rangers are troops (objectives) and protection for illic. the rangers sniper ability is nice but often the don't do much damage more there for points grabbing and harasment. Illic on the other hand with voidbringer is a nail driver for characters, hit on 2's, would on 2's, ap-3 D3 and extra mortal wound on 6 to wound.

Illic is flat 3D

However he is only Heavy 1.
Ive run illic with 10 rangers and an autarch with reaper launcher and mark of hunter (before he got legended) in at least 3 games. And sadly between them I have managed to kill maybe 1 sorcerer. Its very hard to get a bead with all the elements on single target unless you suicide the rangers/illic but then your hitting on 3s/4s or your oponent has no characters or knows whats he doing so he hides them well so meh.

But I have found rangers really good at plinking off last wounds on doomed vehicles/big targets

I think irylith might be a good character hunter/suicide dropper. He has a small base and is fairly easy to hide when DS.
And he pumps out some serious dakka.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
DE doesn't have snipers..... but they have the best snipper in the game.

Tantalus in Dark Creed, 1CP stratagem to target characters. Its only 12 Str 8, -3ap, 2D shots.

The most common competitive DE build includes a fair number of snipers, doesn't it?

Haemonculi and Acothysts equipped with Hexrifles in a Dark Technomancers detachment when fielded in significant enough numbers can threaten key aura characters. Most of the teeth of the list is in the D2 splinter cannons and D2 ossefactors and their ability to pop MEQs but the ~7 or so hexrifles are generally fairly solid at bringing down a key aura somewhere on the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer the op's question: No.

GW's balancing decisions are often pretty driven by players feelings rather than an attempt to make every unit or option strictly useful, and if they've learned anything from their releases throughout 8th, it's that people REALLY REALLY REALLY liked how near-invulnerable and crazy OP characters and special characters were throughout 8th, and they REALLY REALLY hated it when some new thing came out that could kill them.

9th talked a big game about how characters were now going to be vulnerable, but the 'within 3" rule is basically just a palliative. If you kill a character by first denying them the within 3" rule, odds are decent you also would have killed them under the old system.