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2021/10/31 15:50:29
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
I don't think I ever contended that CA don't attempt to balance the multiplayer game? I questioned how much of the balancing comes from actual youtubers and in turn how much filters down into singleplayer.
This whole thing started because we were talking about a 100 cap on WoM reserves, which comes from a blog which was talking specifically about campaign mechanics. We've taken a bit of a step to start talking about minor tweaks of unit costings in multiplayer, lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/31 15:52:36
2021/10/31 21:45:27
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I don't think I ever contended that CA don't attempt to balance the multiplayer game? I questioned how much of the balancing comes from actual youtubers and in turn how much filters down into singleplayer.
This whole thing started because we were talking about a 100 cap on WoM reserves, which comes from a blog which was talking specifically about campaign mechanics. We've taken a bit of a step to start talking about minor tweaks of unit costings in multiplayer, lol.
No, we haven't taken any sort of step at all. I was pointing out the stat changes, which affect both SP and MP, but don't mean much to SP, except for specific players that are really obsessive about stats (since the math difference is less than experience rank differences and difficulty setting tweaks). As an aside, I was pointing out that cost is tweaked simultaneously with unit stats, but has no meaning in SP- hence they don't do MP and SP separately. They just do the one patch that affects both 'branches' of the game, despite how relatively unpopular multiplayer is. They balance both and it ALL filters down into SP, except for things like cost, which don't apply (except indirectly, as a unit that gets a lower cost in MP might get its stats reduced to compensate, and that stat reduction will still affect the unit in SP)
I was pointing to the patch notes to reinforce what I've been repeatedly telling you with yet more evidence, since you're randomly rejecting the idea that their MP streamer stable is where much of the balancing tweaks come from, despite the fact that CA openly talks about it on CA sponsored and broadcast streams.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/31 21:47:22
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/10/31 23:40:40
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
Voss wrote: I was pointing to the patch notes to reinforce what I've been repeatedly telling you with yet more evidence, since you're randomly rejecting the idea that their MP streamer stable is where much of the balancing tweaks come from, despite the fact that CA openly talks about it on CA sponsored and broadcast streams.
Yeah and I just am not willing to take some marketing talk as indicative of what contributions occur in house. *shrugs*
I know they do occasionally listen to streamers, and I know they have events with streamers, and I know CA makes balance tweaks to MP, I've even seen CA reps watching and commenting on youtubers on their streams.
To me those things aren't evidence that "much of the balance" comes from input from streamers, or that the 100 WoM reserve cap originated from some MP balancing (especially when the blog we're talking about is discussing some pretty broad changes to how WoM work *specifically* on the campaign map, with channelling stances, building or losing WoM over multiple turns, etc). You mention unit costs that have nothing to do with SP, but on the flip side WoM reserves have a bunch of inputs with buffs and debuffs in SP that don't exist in MP at all.
In addition to streamer's comments, they likely gather statistics on how units perform in game, perhaps even statistics on how much certain units are used, their own experiences (it seems like at least some folk at CA actually play their games), internal playtesters, external playtesting, and so on. I have no doubt that the comments of streamers and other gamers plays into that soup, how significant an ingredient it is just seems like conjecture to me, then extrapolating that to a cap on WoM in campaign mode of a game that hasn't even been released to streamers yet, I'm not even sure why we're wasting time discussing it
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/31 23:48:32
2021/11/01 00:56:41
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
Overread wrote: I've never really got on with MP or even Skirmish all that well with TW games - mostly because I hit choice paralysis in terms of how to build an army.
Esp with regard to the fact that you don't just buy units, but levels on units. So you hit the "Do I just go all in basic levels and more units; or elites or some elites or what just what!"
Which is a learning curve thing for each army in terms of learning how to use the points system to buy a functional powerful force. It's just a curve I've never really put time into learning
You want no more than you can micro effectively and a lot of higher tier units aren't worth their point cost, especially on mounts. It's not all comparable to SP since all lords/heroes are missing their leveled up skills. Magic isn't anywhere near as effective in general because players usually have the good sense not to blob. Lord sniping spells are probably more valuable.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
2021/11/03 03:50:23
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
It seems oddly fitting and typical that I'm _far_ more excited for the Slaanesh and Nurgle magic lores than the Tzeentch lore. I've felt that way about pretty much every chaos army book and codex.
Particularly Slaanesh. Enough damage spells to be satisfying, but with a lovely buff, excellent debuffs and an outright denial spell. There are some tasty treats with nurgle, but being able to bump attack and AP, while decreasing enemy melee defense and /or offense is nigh-irresistible.
----
Also the Cav update for TW2 finally got pushed out to the live game. Though they're still calling it the Cavalry Beta, which makes 'Cavalry Beta Live!' an impressive misuse of terminology.
Kind of hate it?
Stat-wise, he's unsurprisingly woeful. But... wow. At 20 defense and 50 Armor, if he's attacked at all, he's in trouble. Trash units will do a surprising amount of damage.
Faction effects are... meh?
Bonus to hero action success is fine.
Enemy reinforcement prediction is new... but as a player I suspect you'll learn those anyway. A bonus to know a system timer is a weirdly useless meta-ability
Your own reinforcement time is OK... but I don't fight battles with reinforcements much. If I have to use them, I usually go for autoresolve anyway, because there's just too much to micro.
That's a lot of stuff I don't care about, that only matter in specific circumstances. In a one-on-one fight, its like having no faction effects at all.
Lord effects- some big defensive bonuses, almost to the point of immunity. Fine.
Unlock other lores means... giving up an item slot AND losing some of your own spells. And it de facto counts as a legendary lord effect, effectively 'eating' one (often LL's will have 3 or more abilities). That's really harsh.
Given the way it works, and the spells gained, I'd take Light or Life and never put points into Treason or Firestorm. But the drawbacks make the ability really inflexible, and you can only take one lore at a time.
Aside: Hero-wise, the iridescent horror does all the heavy lifting in actions. I don't usually even bother to use the abilities the cultist has (and speed research seems to be gone)
May well wait to play Tzeentch until a DLC lord.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/11/03 17:51:04
I am pleased that Kairos is rubish in h-t-h - he was awful on the tabletop in melee as he is blind to the present
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
For whatever reason, I didn't expect Greasus and Skrag. (really should have though, given its the main 'faction' leader and the big wizard for the army).
Had to pull out the old 8th edition army book. I'd forgotten how... unexciting the Ogre Special Characters were. Skrag has some potential for interesting mechanics, though. His cauldron has potential both in battle (buffing himself and Gorgers) and on the campaign.
Greasus, I assume, will have some sort of faction or lord effects on trade, money and/or upkeep.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/04 04:16:27
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/11/04 04:58:21
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've long thought that Grom's cauldron was a test bed for the eventual Ogre Kingdom release. I suspect Skrag will get an Ogre version of that.
Yeah, I was thinking of Grom as well. But maybe army buffs by sheer quantity of meat, as well as type.
I wonder if either will get a from-scratch mount option, the way Thrott (and some of the Pirates) did. Greasus had the unfortunate quality of being absurdly slow, and for Skrag, dragging that big old pot across the battlemap is going to be painful.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/11/04 13:41:11
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2021/11/04 15:19:02
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
2021/11/04 17:46:31
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
Apparently its also going to be on the Microsoft store, and part of their game pass. I found that useful last year for games I wasn't sure of (outer worlds and imperator rome) and got to dig into them for a month. There was a $1 special on the pass at the time, so it was really cheap to check stuff out and then cancel the sub.
They intend to support cross-store multiplayer, but the big issue is you can't mix and match games on different platforms. If you've already got 1 & 2 on Steam and you get 3 elsewhere, you won't get everything from old games unlocked when Mortal Empires++ finally comes out.
The FAQ page also has a lot of links to other subjects they've covered (factions, magic, sieges, etc)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/04 17:47:50
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/11/04 17:58:42
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
The MS store system sounds interesting and being on something like game pass will likely help secure sales on either store for people new to the series. For established it makes no real difference so long as the MP remains cross compatible, since all those on steam right now will almost certainly get 3 on steam to unlock all the mortal empires content and anything else.
Apparently its also going to be on the Microsoft store, and part of their game pass. I found that useful last year for games I wasn't sure of (outer worlds and imperator rome) and got to dig into them for a month. There was a $1 special on the pass at the time, so it was really cheap to check stuff out and then cancel the sub.
They intend to support cross-store multiplayer, but the big issue is you can't mix and match games on different platforms. If you've already got 1 & 2 on Steam and you get 3 elsewhere, you won't get everything from old games unlocked when Mortal Empires++ finally comes out.
The FAQ page also has a lot of links to other subjects they've covered (factions, magic, sieges, etc)
Wait, so is it going to be free on game pass, or do you still have to pay for it?
I had game pass for a while and I remember the free game selection wasn't brilliant, most games you had to pay extra and while the prices were discounted, it wasn't a hell of a lot better than steam sale prices.
I eventually got rid of game pass because I'd go months without playing a game, then play only one game for months, so it made more sense just to buy individual games when they went on sale.
2021/11/05 02:49:37
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
Apparently its also going to be on the Microsoft store, and part of their game pass. I found that useful last year for games I wasn't sure of (outer worlds and imperator rome) and got to dig into them for a month. There was a $1 special on the pass at the time, so it was really cheap to check stuff out and then cancel the sub.
They intend to support cross-store multiplayer, but the big issue is you can't mix and match games on different platforms. If you've already got 1 & 2 on Steam and you get 3 elsewhere, you won't get everything from old games unlocked when Mortal Empires++ finally comes out.
The FAQ page also has a lot of links to other subjects they've covered (factions, magic, sieges, etc)
Wait, so is it going to be free on game pass, or do you still have to pay for it?
Anything on game pass is covered by the monthly sub (if you want to buy them there is also sometimes a discount). The trick with games like this is it _doesn't_ include DLC. You have to pay for those, and if you haven't bought the base game, you'll lose access to everything if you let the sub go. Though apparently according to this, FreeLC will be available.
I had game pass for a while and I remember the free game selection wasn't brilliant, most games you had to pay extra and while the prices were discounted, it wasn't a hell of a lot better than steam sale prices.
It is limited (they claim 'over a hundred' at the moment, and also EA play is bundled in and I don't know if those are counted or not) and it cycles games out from time to time. It is better than it used to be, and there are some future perks from MS buying up Bethesda and Obsidian- future games by them will be on the pass on day 1, since they're part o fthe .
Its an iffy thing, depending on what games you actually value. For this, for me? Completely useless, as I've got 1 & 2 and all the DLC on steam already.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/11/05 04:07:10
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
My Ogres! They're beautiful!
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Looks like a map has been released, it looks like a curved version (spherical planet viewed from the top) stretching from the old world to the dragon isles at the bottom, then up to the chaos region in the north. Though perhaps it'll extend further to the east and west? It doesn't look like much of Cathay is on the part they show.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, there is probably a good 25% cutoff to either side and a little below too. Plus I doubt it will quite look like that in-game due to being able to change your perspective. Papers maps are always a little weird compared to the "real" thing.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ogres leaked!
Banners went up before they were meant to. Whoops!
As for Kairos, his unique abilities seem pretty gakky. Manipulate reinforcements during battles, and give up your own powers for a few others.
I know why I would be googling the new jersey governors race... but why were you? Also, how oddly scientifically specific of you to research whether or not ph can denature proteins
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2021/11/05 22:47:48
Subject: Re:Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, there is probably a good 25% cutoff to either side and a little below too. Plus I doubt it will quite look like that in-game due to being able to change your perspective. Papers maps are always a little weird compared to the "real" thing.
Yeah, that map is really grossly distorted. I didn't expect it to go so deep into the empire, but so much is squished and stretched that I doubt the campaign map will really look much like that. (Mortal Empires++, on the other hand... Well. They had to make some serious compromises on the current one)
There's also a lot of erroneous assumptions in the video. We know from the Kairos blog that he starts next to Cathay (probably near the Riverlands- his location on his stat screen is 'The Volary- Eastern Steppes'), so closer to Slaanesh's domain, and as far as he could be from the Realm of the Sorcerer). The speculation for Ulthuan and Naggarond seems right out. ME++ is the place for that.
---
Another cool Ogre video though. Love the 'Maw' spell.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/11/06 00:02:52
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Ogre Kingdoms Trailer pg 12, Release Date : February 17, 2022"
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, there is probably a good 25% cutoff to either side and a little below too. Plus I doubt it will quite look like that in-game due to being able to change your perspective. Papers maps are always a little weird compared to the "real" thing.
Yeah, that map is really grossly distorted. I didn't expect it to go so deep into the empire, but so much is squished and stretched that I doubt the campaign map will really look much like that. (Mortal Empires++, on the other hand... Well. They had to make some serious compromises on the current one)
There's also a lot of erroneous assumptions in the video. We know from the Kairos blog that he starts next to Cathay (probably near the Riverlands- his location on his stat screen is 'The Volary- Eastern Steppes'), so closer to Slaanesh's domain, and as far as he could be from the Realm of the Sorcerer). The speculation for Ulthuan and Naggarond seems right out. ME++ is the place for that.
---
Another cool Ogre video though. Love the 'Maw' spell.
I did also notice Khorne was maybe supposed to be a main enemy for Kislev, but in that map you'd have to go through Nurgle to get to Khorne from Kislev.
But we don't know what that map represents, maybe it's mortal empires where things have been shuffled around, maybe there'll be bastions of the different Gods within the lands themselves and you just teleport into the different God's realms rather than physically walking through them.
This is a version taken from Cody Bond's video and posted on reddit...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/06 00:10:55
2021/11/06 01:46:18
Subject: Total War : Warhammer 3 "Delayed, "Early 2022", Cathay Reveal Sept 14"
Seems weird that for all the Cathay hype, they're squished off to the far right of the map, with the (supposed) Great Bastion taking up no space at all, whereas the Darklands, the far east of the Empire, Norsca and the Chaos Wastes being more important. Hell, the Dragon Isles and the waters around them take up more space than the Great Bastion. Great for Malus I suppose, but not so good for Lady Cold & Aloof.
chaos0xomega wrote: I know why I would be googling the new jersey governors race... but why were you? Also, how oddly scientifically specific of you to research whether or not ph can denature proteins
Not my desktop. Screenshot came from somewhere else. I don't even know what the game is on that website!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/06 01:48:55
