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I would be fine with a simple 2 pt bump to each terminator in Deathwing. I just don't know why they allowed access to standard terminators, otherwise they could have pointed them differently.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't know why we are comapring one factions broken rule to another. We have nothing to compare the DG rule to...for DA we literally have space marines which are the exact same units that cost the same without the rule (a clear imbalance).
DG units do in fact cost more for their DR on a lot of their units too - do they not? The only difference here is competitively. flat 2 damage weapons are going bye bye. Now only d3 flat 3+ or mass 1 damage. Both rules are just absurd though. The only counter to wound on a 4+ is don't bring big guns at all. Which means youll lose vs high toughness lists flat out. This is advantage DA all the way.
It really is funny that people are actually defending this. This is the point we are at now...where army wide -1 damage and 4+ max to wound are actually entertained as being balanced lol. You guys truly are helpless. If you ever wonder why the game never gets balance this is why. The community as a whole does not want balance.
Why does this bother you now though? It's been a year and a half of Loyalist favouritism with free rules that aren't accounted for in their points far above and beyond the other factions.
Why is this egregious but Loyalists compared to the rest was fine?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't know why we are comapring one factions broken rule to another. We have nothing to compare the DG rule to...for DA we literally have space marines which are the exact same units that cost the same without the rule (a clear imbalance).
DG units do in fact cost more for their DR on a lot of their units too - do they not? The only difference here is competitively. flat 2 damage weapons are going bye bye. Now only d3 flat 3+ or mass 1 damage. Both rules are just absurd though. The only counter to wound on a 4+ is don't bring big guns at all. Which means youll lose vs high toughness lists flat out. This is advantage DA all the way.
It really is funny that people are actually defending this. This is the point we are at now...where army wide -1 damage and 4+ max to wound are actually entertained as being balanced lol. You guys truly are helpless. If you ever wonder why the game never gets balance this is why. The community as a whole does not want balance.
Why does this bother you now though? It's been a year and a half of Loyalist favouritism with free rules that aren't accounted for in their points far above and beyond the other factions.
Why is this egregious but Loyalists compared to the rest was fine?
bullyboy wrote: I would be fine with a simple 2 pt bump to each terminator in Deathwing. I just don't know why they allowed access to standard terminators, otherwise they could have pointed them differently.
Ehh - 2 points would still be to cheap for that rule IMO but at least that would be something. If it was a 2 point upgrade I probably wouldn't have said anything.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bullyboy wrote: I would be fine with a simple 2 pt bump to each terminator in Deathwing. I just don't know why they allowed access to standard terminators, otherwise they could have pointed them differently.
Ehh - 2 points would still be to cheap for that rule IMO but at least that would be something. If it was a 2 point upgrade I probably wouldn't have said anything.
At 2 more points they would cost as much as blightlords. I'm not sure they are on the same level if you don't limit your scope to resilience (even if you do to be fair, since they have a built in 4++).
Maybe they should give a discount to other SMs instead. Since it looks like you guys wants to run termies now, suddenly.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 20:59:06
Eldarain wrote: Why is this egregious but Loyalists compared to the rest was fine?
He would be explaining why it is fine and actually probably a bit underpowered if it was an UM rule.
I would have a legit hard time trying to convince anyone of that because they are literally bonus rules That only DA units get. There is no debating that it is unbalanced.
At this point you have no retort other than personal attacks. Rather weak ones too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 21:07:59
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Eldarain wrote: Why is this egregious but Loyalists compared to the rest was fine?
He would be explaining why it is fine and actually probably a bit underpowered if it was an UM rule.
I would have a legit hard time trying to convince anyone of that because they are literally bonus rules That only DA units get. There is no debating that it is unbalanced.
Don't sell yourself so short !
There are a ton of rules no other units get. Your sole point is "they share a book so it should be the same !". They never have been the same and it never bothered you before now.
Xenomancers wrote: At this point you have no retort other than personal attacks. Rather weak ones too.
As long as your point will be "I can't have it so they shouldn't either" and plastered everywhere, there won't be much more to do.
bullyboy wrote: I would be fine with a simple 2 pt bump to each terminator in Deathwing. I just don't know why they allowed access to standard terminators, otherwise they could have pointed them differently.
Ehh - 2 points would still be to cheap for that rule IMO but at least that would be something. If it was a 2 point upgrade I probably wouldn't have said anything.
At 2 more points they would cost as much as blightlords. I'm not sure they are on the same level if you don't limit your scope to resilience (even if you do to be fair, since they have a built in 4++).
Maybe they should give a discount to other SMs instead. Since it looks like you guys wants to run termies now, suddenly.
For sure. If it turns out these are upgrades that terms need to compete (that is entirely possible) though I doubt it - I take a squad of 5 to anchor a front line or push the weak side and they do that job just fine ESP if you are able to eliminate their heavy firepower - typically they don't get attacked and I put tiggy -1 to hit on them to discourage it even more. They are fair for their cost.
Wow...look at me. Claiming that a perfect average unit is fine and doesn't need free 2 CP stratagems to be viable.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bullyboy wrote: I would be fine with a simple 2 pt bump to each terminator in Deathwing. I just don't know why they allowed access to standard terminators, otherwise they could have pointed them differently.
Agreed. Giving Inner Circle to the standard Terminators just complicates the matter. It would be different if DA didn't already have their own dedicated terminator units, but they do. For the record, I'd say DWKs seem to be priced with the durability buff included, when compared to Deathshrouds.
38 points for T4 2+/5++ W3 is pretty damn good, especially when they have acceptable firepower and good melee.
I pay 9 PPM for a T4 5++/5+++ W1 model with no shooting and 1 S4 attack on a 4+ that rerolls wounds. They can get a -1 to-hit in a big squad (20+) but with the cap on hit modifiers...
Hell, let's say that 30 Plaguebearers get the charge on 7 Terminators. I'll assume no Overwatch, no buffs, no strats, nothing but their datasheets.
Spoiler:
Plaguebearers T1 31 attacks
31/2 hits
93/8 wounds
93/48 unsaved wounds, for just shy of 2 wounds.
18 Power Fist attacks
9 hits
45/6 or 15/2 wounds
30/6 or 5 unsaved wounds
40/9 failed saves
That's just shy of five dead Plaguebearers.
PT2 26 attacks
13 hits
39/4 wounds
39/24 or 13/8 failed saves. Finally a dead Terminator-I'll kill off the Sarge, since he's the weakest.
TT2 12 Power Fist attacks
6 hits
5 wounds
10/3 failed saves
80/27 dead Plagues, or three more
PT3 23 attacks
23/2 hits
69/8 wounds
69/48 or 23/16 failed saves, one Terminator is on two wounds
TT3 12 Power Fist attacks, for another three dead Plaguebearers
They now lose the -1 to-hit, but that's irrelevant due to the Fist's -1.
PT4 20 attacks
10 hits
30/4 or 15/2 wounds
15/12 or 5/4 failed saves, one Terminator on one wound
TT4 12 attacks, three dead
PT5 17 attacks
17/2 hits
51/8 wounds
51/48 failed saves, or another dead Terminator
TT5 10 attacks
5 hits
25/6 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves
200/81 dead, or another two
If the Plaguebearers somehow charge T1 (say, you infiltrated the Terminators as Raven Guard) and fight 7 Terminators for the entire game, with no support on either side...
2 Terminators die, for 76 points.
16 Plaguebearers die, for 144 points.
Plaguebearers-who's only way to deal damage is in melee, are slow, and who's only real power is being durable-lose the attrition game to less points of Terminators, who can make up for poor mobility with Deep Strike, have decent shooting, and who do NOT have Plaguebearers as a preferred melee target.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Eldarain wrote: Why is this egregious but Loyalists compared to the rest was fine?
He would be explaining why it is fine and actually probably a bit underpowered if it was an UM rule.
I would have a legit hard time trying to convince anyone of that because they are literally bonus rules That only DA units get. There is no debating that it is unbalanced.
Don't sell yourself so short !
There are a ton of rules no other units get. Your sole point is "they share a book so it should be the same !". They never have been the same and it never bothered you before now.
Xenomancers wrote: At this point you have no retort other than personal attacks. Rather weak ones too.
As long as your point will be "I can't have it so they shouldn't either" and plastered everywhere, there won't be much more to do.
First of all I don't think all terms should have this.
Second. It is a perfectly valid argument that if 1 armies terms can be wounded on a 2 plus by a las cannon that another chapters terms should not be wounded on a 4+ for no increase in resource expenditure. There is just no point in debating it further. If this is where this game is going - it is pretty much finished. People will just stop playing. Or at the very least - refuse to play against it - and I don't blame them.
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns. This game is so incredibly basic compared to real strategy games. It doesn't make the game less fun though. What makes the game less fun is obviously broken gak like this being defended and propagated across the whole game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 21:29:41
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Upgrade in cost should be pretty doable. Between all the chapter command or specilisms or whatever else, 9th has not been afraid to charge for keyword upgrades.
38 points for T4 2+/5++ W3 is pretty damn good, especially when they have acceptable firepower and good melee.
I pay 9 PPM for a T4 5++/5+++ W1 model with no shooting and 1 S4 attack on a 4+ that rerolls wounds. They can get a -1 to-hit in a big squad (20+) but with the cap on hit modifiers...
Hell, let's say that 30 Plaguebearers get the charge on 7 Terminators. I'll assume no Overwatch, no buffs, no strats, nothing but their datasheets.
Spoiler:
Plaguebearers T1 31 attacks
31/2 hits
93/8 wounds
93/48 unsaved wounds, for just shy of 2 wounds.
18 Power Fist attacks
9 hits
45/6 or 15/2 wounds
30/6 or 5 unsaved wounds
40/9 failed saves
That's just shy of five dead Plaguebearers.
PT2 26 attacks
13 hits
39/4 wounds
39/24 or 13/8 failed saves. Finally a dead Terminator-I'll kill off the Sarge, since he's the weakest.
TT2 12 Power Fist attacks
6 hits
5 wounds
10/3 failed saves
80/27 dead Plagues, or three more
PT3 23 attacks
23/2 hits
69/8 wounds
69/48 or 23/16 failed saves, one Terminator is on two wounds
TT3 12 Power Fist attacks, for another three dead Plaguebearers
They now lose the -1 to-hit, but that's irrelevant due to the Fist's -1.
PT4 20 attacks
10 hits
30/4 or 15/2 wounds
15/12 or 5/4 failed saves, one Terminator on one wound
TT4 12 attacks, three dead
PT5 17 attacks
17/2 hits
51/8 wounds
51/48 failed saves, or another dead Terminator
TT5 10 attacks
5 hits
25/6 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves
200/81 dead, or another two
If the Plaguebearers somehow charge T1 (say, you infiltrated the Terminators as Raven Guard) and fight 7 Terminators for the entire game, with no support on either side...
2 Terminators die, for 76 points.
16 Plaguebearers die, for 144 points.
Plaguebearers-who's only way to deal damage is in melee, are slow, and who's only real power is being durable-lose the attrition game to less points of Terminators, who can make up for poor mobility with Deep Strike, have decent shooting, and who do NOT have Plaguebearers as a preferred melee target.
Im here saying terminators are fine...I agree. They are fine. In fact I am including them in competitive 2000 points games and they do really well. Heck...mine can't even spend CP to got to a 4+ to wound.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
38 points for T4 2+/5++ W3 is pretty damn good, especially when they have acceptable firepower and good melee.
I pay 9 PPM for a T4 5++/5+++ W1 model with no shooting and 1 S4 attack on a 4+ that rerolls wounds. They can get a -1 to-hit in a big squad (20+) but with the cap on hit modifiers...
Hell, let's say that 30 Plaguebearers get the charge on 7 Terminators. I'll assume no Overwatch, no buffs, no strats, nothing but their datasheets.
Spoiler:
Plaguebearers T1 31 attacks
31/2 hits
93/8 wounds
93/48 unsaved wounds, for just shy of 2 wounds.
18 Power Fist attacks
9 hits
45/6 or 15/2 wounds
30/6 or 5 unsaved wounds
40/9 failed saves
That's just shy of five dead Plaguebearers.
PT2 26 attacks
13 hits
39/4 wounds
39/24 or 13/8 failed saves. Finally a dead Terminator-I'll kill off the Sarge, since he's the weakest.
TT2 12 Power Fist attacks
6 hits
5 wounds
10/3 failed saves
80/27 dead Plagues, or three more
PT3 23 attacks
23/2 hits
69/8 wounds
69/48 or 23/16 failed saves, one Terminator is on two wounds
TT3 12 Power Fist attacks, for another three dead Plaguebearers
They now lose the -1 to-hit, but that's irrelevant due to the Fist's -1.
PT4 20 attacks
10 hits
30/4 or 15/2 wounds
15/12 or 5/4 failed saves, one Terminator on one wound
TT4 12 attacks, three dead
PT5 17 attacks
17/2 hits
51/8 wounds
51/48 failed saves, or another dead Terminator
TT5 10 attacks
5 hits
25/6 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves
200/81 dead, or another two
If the Plaguebearers somehow charge T1 (say, you infiltrated the Terminators as Raven Guard) and fight 7 Terminators for the entire game, with no support on either side...
2 Terminators die, for 76 points.
16 Plaguebearers die, for 144 points.
Plaguebearers-who's only way to deal damage is in melee, are slow, and who's only real power is being durable-lose the attrition game to less points of Terminators, who can make up for poor mobility with Deep Strike, have decent shooting, and who do NOT have Plaguebearers as a preferred melee target.
Im here saying terminators are fine...I agree. They are fine. In fact I am including them in competitive 2000 points games and they do really well. Heck...mine can't even spend CP to got to a 4+ to wound.
You said they're average.
And I'm saying that, against a unit who's only contribution to damage is melee and negates a big advantage of Terminator melee (good AP), they come out far, far worse, assuming they somehow pull off a T1 charge.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
But again you've been fine with extreme points/CP free external imbalance for your faction since 2.0. Why is this internal imbalance so upsetting to you?
You have a 100+ Datasheet super faction with an 11 volume set of books for your 1 army. Can you not see how irritating it would be as a have not faction to see you complain about this?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns.
I was going to reply at your previous post seriously but this one just made me realise it was worthless (I must be slow).
Xenomancers wrote: First of all I don't think all terms should have this.
Second. It is a perfectly valid argument that if 1 armies terms can be wounded on a 2 plus by a las cannon that another chapters terms should not be wounded on a 4+ for no increase in resource expenditure. There is just no point in debating it further. If this is where this game is going - it is pretty much finished. People will just stop playing. Or at the very least - refuse to play against it - and I don't blame them.
I fail to see how this is any different to the rest of the loyalist Marines.
Examples:
- BA everything wounds better in melee than any other chapter while paying the same cost as them.
- White Scars everything can advance and charge or advance and shoot Assault weapons without penalty while paying the same cost as other chapters.
Why not complain about the Sanguinary Guard Death Masks? Or whatever Wulfen or TWC get.
I strongly disagree with your assumption that this will break the camel's back and people stop playing.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Xenomancers wrote: First of all I don't think all terms should have this.
Second. It is a perfectly valid argument that if 1 armies terms can be wounded on a 2 plus by a las cannon that another chapters terms should not be wounded on a 4+ for no increase in resource expenditure. There is just no point in debating it further. If this is where this game is going - it is pretty much finished. People will just stop playing. Or at the very least - refuse to play against it - and I don't blame them.
I fail to see how this is any different to the rest of the loyalist Marines.
Examples:
- BA everything wounds better in melee than any other chapter while paying the same cost as them.
- White Scars everything can advance and charge or advance and shoot Assault weapons without penalty while paying the same cost as other chapters.
Why not complain about the Sanguinary Guard Death Masks? Or whatever Wulfen or TWC get.
I strongly disagree with your assumption that this will break the camel's back and people stop playing.
First of all...if balance is the goal. All chapter tactics and super doctrines should be somewhat equal. They aren't but they are close.
It as not as if DA don't have a chapter tactic or a super doctrine...because they do.
These are irregular rules. They stand apart. Plus they are really really good rules too. That is the difference.
The way I would handle this would be the same way I would deal with a blood angels SG. If they costed the same as say a VV. With better stats/ weapons...I would demand the SG went up in price to accommodate for its increased potential.
You see what we are lead to believe is chapter tactics and other army traits are built into the cost of the model but herin lies the issue - the abilities aren't balanced at all. So you have a point. Why complain about Inner circle but not for other things...Well...I did complain about those. The issue is I just end up arguing with the same fan boys of each chapter or army who just want their stuff to be OP Beit ynnari/ IH/ IF/ or whatever. Or the completive army hoppers. No one wants an honest discussion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Heck, only one chapter can slap a -1 to-hit on any CORE unit at the start of the battle round. Complain about that.
Tiggy costs more than a libby by 45 points. If you want to argue that is OP be my guest. He is a solid libby and I'd probably take him at 140... the -1 to hit is more of a deterrence. Nothing forces you to shoot the unit because it is at the start of the shooting phase.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 22:04:53
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: First of all I don't think all terms should have this.
Second. It is a perfectly valid argument that if 1 armies terms can be wounded on a 2 plus by a las cannon that another chapters terms should not be wounded on a 4+ for no increase in resource expenditure. There is just no point in debating it further. If this is where this game is going - it is pretty much finished. People will just stop playing. Or at the very least - refuse to play against it - and I don't blame them.
I fail to see how this is any different to the rest of the loyalist Marines.
Examples:
- BA everything wounds better in melee than any other chapter while paying the same cost as them.
- White Scars everything can advance and charge or advance and shoot Assault weapons without penalty while paying the same cost as other chapters.
Why not complain about the Sanguinary Guard Death Masks? Or whatever Wulfen or TWC get.
I strongly disagree with your assumption that this will break the camel's back and people stop playing.
Once again, as I have to explain, Deathwing get the Dark Angels benefits ON TOP of Transhuman for no discernable reason.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
JNAProductions wrote: Heck, only one chapter can slap a -1 to-hit on any CORE unit at the start of the battle round. Complain about that.
Tiggy costs more than a libby by 45 points. If you want to argue that is OP be my guest. He is a solid libby and I'd probably take him at 140... the -1 to hit is more of a deterrence. Nothing forces you to shoot the unit because it is at the start of the shooting phase.
He also gets a lot more than just that.
For 40 points more than a Primaris Librarian, he gets...
-A much better melee weapon (mostly irrelevant, but hey!)
-An additional Denial
-An additional power known
-Extends his Psychic Hood to max range
-Gains +1 to cast all powers
-Can reroll psychic tests
-Grants a -1 malus to all attacks targeting a friendly CORE or CHARACTER unit at the start of the round
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns.
I was going to reply at your previous post seriously but this one just made me realise it was worthless (I must be slow).
Is this a copy pasta ?
Seems we have a world class champion here hah hah. What tournaments have you actually won then champ ? Since it apparently is so easy to win them. Dazzle us
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns.
I was going to reply at your previous post seriously but this one just made me realise it was worthless (I must be slow).
Is this a copy pasta ?
Seems we have a world class champion here hah hah. What tournaments have you actually won then champ ? Since it apparently is so easy to win them. Dazzle us
JNAProductions wrote: Hell, let's say that 30 Plaguebearers get the charge on 7 Terminators. I'll assume no Overwatch, no buffs, no strats, nothing but their datasheets.
Spoiler:
Plaguebearers T1 31 attacks
31/2 hits
93/8 wounds
93/48 unsaved wounds, for just shy of 2 wounds.
18 Power Fist attacks
9 hits
45/6 or 15/2 wounds
30/6 or 5 unsaved wounds
40/9 failed saves
That's just shy of five dead Plaguebearers.
PT2 26 attacks
13 hits
39/4 wounds
39/24 or 13/8 failed saves. Finally a dead Terminator-I'll kill off the Sarge, since he's the weakest.
TT2 12 Power Fist attacks
6 hits
5 wounds
10/3 failed saves
80/27 dead Plagues, or three more
PT3 23 attacks
23/2 hits
69/8 wounds
69/48 or 23/16 failed saves, one Terminator is on two wounds
TT3 12 Power Fist attacks, for another three dead Plaguebearers
They now lose the -1 to-hit, but that's irrelevant due to the Fist's -1.
PT4 20 attacks
10 hits
30/4 or 15/2 wounds
15/12 or 5/4 failed saves, one Terminator on one wound
TT4 12 attacks, three dead
PT5 17 attacks
17/2 hits
51/8 wounds
51/48 failed saves, or another dead Terminator
TT5 10 attacks
5 hits
25/6 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves
200/81 dead, or another two
If the Plaguebearers somehow charge T1 (say, you infiltrated the Terminators as Raven Guard) and fight 7 Terminators for the entire game, with no support on either side...
2 Terminators die, for 76 points.
16 Plaguebearers die, for 144 points.
Plaguebearers-who's only way to deal damage is in melee, are slow, and who's only real power is being durable-lose the attrition game to less points of Terminators, who can make up for poor mobility with Deep Strike, have decent shooting, and who do NOT have Plaguebearers as a preferred melee target.
In this scenario, both sides lost an equal number of points as the two forces stay tied up all game. Actual kills don't matter.
Heck, this math shows that throwing a 20 man blob of PBs at 10 Terminators is likely still a good trade for the DG player.
JNAProductions wrote: Hell, let's say that 30 Plaguebearers get the charge on 7 Terminators. I'll assume no Overwatch, no buffs, no strats, nothing but their datasheets.
Spoiler:
Plaguebearers T1 31 attacks
31/2 hits
93/8 wounds
93/48 unsaved wounds, for just shy of 2 wounds.
18 Power Fist attacks
9 hits
45/6 or 15/2 wounds
30/6 or 5 unsaved wounds
40/9 failed saves
That's just shy of five dead Plaguebearers.
PT2 26 attacks
13 hits
39/4 wounds
39/24 or 13/8 failed saves. Finally a dead Terminator-I'll kill off the Sarge, since he's the weakest.
TT2 12 Power Fist attacks
6 hits
5 wounds
10/3 failed saves
80/27 dead Plagues, or three more
PT3 23 attacks
23/2 hits
69/8 wounds
69/48 or 23/16 failed saves, one Terminator is on two wounds
TT3 12 Power Fist attacks, for another three dead Plaguebearers
They now lose the -1 to-hit, but that's irrelevant due to the Fist's -1.
PT4 20 attacks
10 hits
30/4 or 15/2 wounds
15/12 or 5/4 failed saves, one Terminator on one wound
TT4 12 attacks, three dead
PT5 17 attacks
17/2 hits
51/8 wounds
51/48 failed saves, or another dead Terminator
TT5 10 attacks
5 hits
25/6 wounds
50/18 or 25/9 failed saves
200/81 dead, or another two
If the Plaguebearers somehow charge T1 (say, you infiltrated the Terminators as Raven Guard) and fight 7 Terminators for the entire game, with no support on either side...
2 Terminators die, for 76 points.
16 Plaguebearers die, for 144 points.
Plaguebearers-who's only way to deal damage is in melee, are slow, and who's only real power is being durable-lose the attrition game to less points of Terminators, who can make up for poor mobility with Deep Strike, have decent shooting, and who do NOT have Plaguebearers as a preferred melee target.
In this scenario, both sides lost an equal number of points as the two forces stay tied up all game. Actual kills don't matter.
Heck, this math shows that throwing a 20 man blob of PBs at 10 Terminators is likely still a good trade for the DG player.
Because Terminators are incapable of falling back and having the rest of the army unload on them, if they're in a bad spot. Yup, that's an impossible situation!
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Where is it written this game is about balance ? Are Deathwing terminators too good ? Perhaps. That is all something that can be wiggled around in points and may end up doing so before long. That is the current GW way.
Make something, don't care how it comes out, if it sucks buff it, if it's good nerf it. Make your book redundant because of having small books made out of faqs and point adjustments. However we will see how the creep continues from here.
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns.
I was going to reply at your previous post seriously but this one just made me realise it was worthless (I must be slow).
Is this a copy pasta ?
Seems we have a world class champion here hah hah. What tournaments have you actually won then champ ? Since it apparently is so easy to win them. Dazzle us
You're talking to me ?
No Xenomancers, sorry should have quoted him not you
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
