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So in light of DA getting a super fluffy new codex which hands out free transhuman stratagem on every Deathwing unit and other Ravenwing goodies. I think it is time for a proper Ultramarines supplement with a similar idea behind the fluffiness and free stratagems applied across your whole army.

I think...with Ultramarines being masters of battlefield adaptability. All Ultramarines Core units should be able to change their doctrines every turn just like the adaptive stratagem - best part is -since every unit in a DA army can be able to get this ability. So should the Ultramarines be able to choose their doctrine every turn for every core unit. No limits! Now we can be super adaptive and fluffy on the table. For this ability I suggest that it should be free as in no additional point cost for these rules. It's not OP cause it's limited to core units only. Who is on board for this?

Great! And as a result you can't receive this benefit if you take anything outside the Troops selection! There. Now we're apples to apples.

Marines being envious of Marines is not a good look.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Great! And as a result you can't receive this benefit if you take anything outside the Troops selection! There. Now we're apples to apples.

I included the Core restriction. Which is vastly limiting!

Realistically...It is impossible to make every unit in an Ultramarines army benefit. Where literally every unit in a DA army could have free transhuman. Plus just think. It wouldn't even been that good. You gonna choose tactical almost every time anyways so...it's almost like it does nothing for you turn 2 and 3...honestly the most important turns.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Great! And as a result you can't receive this benefit if you take anything outside the Troops selection! There. Now we're apples to apples.

I included the Core restriction. Which is vastly limiting!

Realistically...It is impossible to make every unit in an Ultramarines army benefit. Where literally every unit in a DA army could have free transhuman. Plus just think. It wouldn't even been that good. You gonna choose tactical almost every time anyways so...it's almost like it does nothing for you turn 2 and 3...honestly the most important turns.

Troops is more than fair. Core is exceedingly generous when DW is restricted to a single type along with some character limitations and costs.

Can we please discuss Dark Angels in the already existing thread instead of making another, obviously sarcastic troll post?

a_typical_hero wrote:
Can we please discuss Dark Angels in the already existing thread instead of making another, obviously sarcastic troll post?

Yea, I'll stop feeding it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Great! And as a result you can't receive this benefit if you take anything outside the Troops selection! There. Now we're apples to apples.

Well, technically, in order to make it truly "apples to apples" you would have to allow a certain number of specific units to be upgraded to "Extra Ultramariny" status, where they would gain no other benefits besides not breaking the "Extra Ultramarineness" of the detachment, for a set points cost.

But yeah, agreed with A_typical_hero, Xeno is obviously being more than a bit sarcastic here.

Xeno: Defends absurd Marines post 2.0 piling up mountains of free special rules.

Xeno after DA previews: This is insane why do they get things for free I dont.

Me as Word Bearers: I can't even...

 Eldarain wrote:
Xeno: Defends absurd Marines post 2.0 piling up mountains of free special rules.

Xeno after DA previews: This is insane why do they get things for free I dont.

Me as Word Bearers: I can't even...

Yeah. I’m in the odd position of agreeing with Xeno that DA are too much.

But of course, all Loyalist Marines are too much right now.

 Eldarain wrote:
Xeno: Defends absurd Marines post 2.0 piling up mountains of free special rules.

Xeno after DA previews: This is insane why do they get things for free I dont.

Me as Word Bearers: I can't even...

I believe I made it abundantly clear. The issue with 8.5 marines was Dev doctrine super doctrine stacks with certain supplements...and a few warlord traits that certain chapters had that allows stupid shenanigans like...auto turn 1 charge with assult cents (which were generously priced to begin with). That combined with several chapter tactics being buffed for no reason...like the 2 best solid tactics getting buffed hard...IF ignore cover was literally already the best tactic but they decided to give free bolter drill stratagem to the whole army....oh BTW...that is still there. Then we had Ironhands with the 6+ FNP which would have been the go to space marine build if vehicles could get the tactic pre 8.5. Anyways - that is the stuff that was busted. 8.5 was a joke. Pretty much everything that came after that was also a joke though...Custodians and Harlequins both got insane buffs. Yet...Don't see anyone complaining about that.

Anyways...this post is obviously satire. However...it is seriously the same level of bonkers you are getting with DA right now. Seriously it wouldn't even be as strong. LOL.

Give me a rational argument why its okay for every unit in an army to get free transhuman but not free adaptive strategy? You could also argue as well this would be a more fluffy rule for Ultras than for deathwing. Deathwing should get rules coming out of deep strike or something...not free durability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Give me a rational argument why its okay for every unit in an army to get free transhuman but not free adaptive strategy?

Well a good # of you complain that things that should be inherent to units got turned into strats & want that changed.
What's more integral to a SM, who is the very definition of transhuman, than having such a strat turned into a general rule?
Maybe the other SM & CSM flavors will eventually get this as an errata?

ccs wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Give me a rational argument why its okay for every unit in an army to get free transhuman but not free adaptive strategy?

Well a good # of you complain that things that should be inherent to units got turned into strats & want that changed.
What's more integral to a SM, who is the very definition of transhuman, than having such a strat turned into a general rule?
Maybe the other SM & CSM flavors will eventually get this as an errata?

Sharing a name does not make something fluffy.

A Marine being more likely than not to avoid getting wounded by a Lasgun? Makes sense, fluffy.
A Marine having 50/50 odds of getting wounded by a Bolter? Makes sense, fluffy.
A Marine having better odds of avoiding getting wounded by a Lascannon than a Leman Russ? Hell no.

 catbarf wrote:
Marines being envious of Marines is not a good look.

Well that's what happens when GW decides to stack rules on top of rules on top of rules. Supplements are a mistake.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Give me a rational argument why its okay for every unit in an army to get free transhuman but not free adaptive strategy?

Write me a DA list.

I mean DA are basically Codex Compliant, can't they just use the basic space marine list and take plasma weapons?

 Da Boss wrote:
I mean DA are basically Codex Compliant, can't they just use the basic space marine list and take plasma weapons?

No, at least not if they want their terminators and bikers to have ObSec. Plus they don't really get anything special for using plasma weapons unless you count spending 2CP for Weapons From the Dark Age.

Why do they need ObSec and special rules for using plasma weapons? Bit of a weird response.

The weirdness with this list stems from trying to manufacture difference for this faction of marines who are essentially very similar to Ultramarines, just with edgier background and a special paintjob for their bikers and terminators. What's the point? The units are already available, they don't need special rules if you want to run them. Just run them.

Yeah. I’m in the odd position of agreeing with Xeno that DA are too much.

But of course, all Loyalist Marines are too much right now.

This was inevitable. I warned everyone months ago that GW's over-focus on Marines and the rules for marines was eventually going to turn in on itself and create a black whole of self hating marine players who are also jealous of other marines while also claiming there's nothing wrong with marines, that would, eventually, consume all data on the net.

It was bound to happen. I warned you all. Don't come crying to me in a few days when we're all suddenly living in a South Park episode.

 Da Boss wrote:
Why do they need ObSec and special rules for using plasma weapons? Bit of a weird response.

The weirdness with this list stems from trying to manufacture difference for this faction of marines who are essentially very similar to Ultramarines, just with edgier background and a special paintjob for their bikers and terminators. What's the point? The units are already available, they don't need special rules if you want to run them. Just run them.

Why would you assume you could build a good DA list that's just marines with plasma weapons?

 Da Boss wrote:
Why do they need ObSec and special rules for using plasma weapons? Bit of a weird response.

The weirdness with this list stems from trying to manufacture difference for this faction of marines who are essentially very similar to Ultramarines, just with edgier background and a special paintjob for their bikers and terminators. What's the point? The units are already available, they don't need special rules if you want to run them. Just run them.

Just because Deathwing and Ravenwing have historically been self-contained armies, is all, even if they were more fluffy than competitive choices back in 3rd. Yeah, you could take special detachments with a standard Marine codex, but then you'd have no obsec and you'd be down a bunch of CP.

In a world without Supplements, I wouldn't have a problem with something like:

Ravenwing detachments can only take Bikes, Attack Bikes, ATVs, Bike Characters, Outriders, Speeders, and Flyers; Bikers and Outriders count as Troops and have Obsec;

Deathwing detachments can only take Terminators and variants, Terminator-armored characters, Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders; non-Character Terminators count as Troops and have Obsec


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Yeah. I’m in the odd position of agreeing with Xeno that DA are too much.

But of course, all Loyalist Marines are too much right now.

This was inevitable. I warned everyone months ago that GW's over-focus on Marines and the rules for marines was eventually going to turn in on itself and create a black whole of self hating marine players who are also jealous of other marines while also claiming there's nothing wrong with marines, that would, eventually, consume all data on the net.

It was bound to happen. I warned you all. Don't come crying to me in a few days when we're all suddenly living in a South Park episode.

Love it, though it feels like we've been living in one for four years at this point anyway.

 catbarf wrote:
Marines being envious of Marines is not a good look.

This is the way..
But lets not forget there is nothing wrong and we should wait and see. This is the way.

Was the original post not facetious?

 fraser1191 wrote:
Was the original post not facetious?

I'm not so sure...

EDIT: It was facetious in the sense that it wasn't a literal suggestion that the Ultras need more buffs. It was, however, an earnest complaint from one Marine flavor - a pretty good one at that - about the DA?

It was facetious in the sense that it wasn't a literal suggestion that the Ultras need more buffs. It was, however, an earnest complaint from one Marine flavor - a pretty good one at that - about the DA?

It's pretty simple. I don't get the confusion here. It's the conversation Dakka's been having for months - "Marines are too good, but there's nothing wrong with them, but also they need more buffs, unless it's those marines, but I'm not talking about them, I mean these marines, who are not as good as the other marines, but better than those other marines. Marines are perfect."

It's like you haven't even been paying attention.

Transhuman should be -1 to wound, not how it is currently.

The current version makes no difference in durability against S4 and below weapons while being vastly op against s8+ weapons and makes any +1 to wound rules/stratagems completely pointless.

It's bad design.

I would keep Arcane Genetic Alchemy as it is because in the case of the Custodes it makes more sense for them, imo.

Tycho wrote:

It was facetious in the sense that it wasn't a literal suggestion that the Ultras need more buffs. It was, however, an earnest complaint from one Marine flavor - a pretty good one at that - about the DA?

It's pretty simple. I don't get the confusion here. It's the conversation Dakka's been having for months - "Marines are too good, but there's nothing wrong with them, but also they need more buffs, unless it's those marines, but I'm not talking about them, I mean these marines, who are not as good as the other marines, but better than those other marines. Marines are perfect."

It's like you haven't even been paying attention.

Is "You" Fraser or me? 'Cause I'm totally in the boat that says Marines are having way too much everything, that one marine flavor complaining about a better one is ironic enough to sweep aside the Bronze age, and that this is basically how non-Marine players have likely been feeling since August of 2019.

It is pretty hilarious, in an ironic way.

Probably happened with the most fitting chapter too.

It seems we have this discussion every time a new Marine book is released with something in it that the previous books don't have.

If nothing else, it's a good argument for Marines all being in a single book. At least then they would all get updated at the same time.

 insaniak wrote:
It seems we have this discussion every time a new Marine book is released with something in it that the previous books don't have.

If nothing else, it's a good argument for Marines all being in a single book. At least then they would all get updated at the same time.

I though the thing that keeps coming up with every marine book is that there is no problems with marines, they are in fact not powerful enough and we should wait and see and not get angry for no reason?
Could have sworn I read this before somewhere...