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33 PPM for a Vanguard Veteran with Relic Blade and Storm Shield.

So, for 2 PPM, you get +1 Attack and +1 Wound, at the cost of -2 Strength. (And a pistol, but that's mostly irrelevant.) Except not every Vanguard Veteran can take a Relic Blade.

I'm not gonna call Vanguard Veterans bad-they're certainly not!-but to say that it's 12 points for +1 Wound and Attack is misguided at best.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I did with a 4+ Invuln on the Custodes. BGV still won.

Interseting. Cause the math shows otherwise.

Custodians go even if they get charged. and win drastically if they pull off the charge. Even without a shooting phase.
BG (cahrge) vs custodes
13x.66= 8.66
8.66x.5 = 4.33
4.33x.5= 2.16 x2 = 1 kill with 1 damage wasted.

Return damage
6x.82 = 4.92
4.92x .66 = 3.25
3.25x .5 = 1.62 (cant get 1.6 wounds so it's ether 1 or 2.) That averages to 3.25 though which is a kill.

It only gets better from there. The marines lost 6 attacks and the custodians only lost 3.

Custodes average 2.5 wounds on the charge and a wound from shooting. This with average 2 kills and sometimes kill 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I did with a 4+ Invuln on the Custodes. BGV still won.

Interseting. Cause the math shows otherwise.

Custodians go even if they get charged. and win drastically if they pull off the charge. Even without a shooting phase.
BG (cahrge) vs custodes
13x.66= 8.66
8.66x.5 = 4.33
4.33x.5= 2.16 x2 = 1 kill with 1 damage wasted.

Return damage
6x.82 = 4.92
4.92x .66 = 3.25
3.25x .5 = 1.62 (cant get 1.6 wounds so it's ether 1 or 2.) That averages to 3.25 though which is a kill.

It only gets better from there. The marines lost 6 attacks and the custodians only lost 3.

Custodes average 2.5 wounds on the charge and a wound from shooting. This with average 2 kills and sometimes kill 3.

You just compared 135 point unit to a 105 point unit. No dip the Custodes won. They had a close to 30% point advantage.

Also, your odds of killing two BGV with two failed saves is 1/9. Since the shooting is flat 2, the first failed save (if they fail a save against the guns) kills a guy guaranteed, and the next two wounds (if they GET two wounds) each have to roll a 3.

Bullgryns should stay 35 and get buffed in their book. We don't want a race to the bottom again.

 JNAProductions wrote:
33 PPM for a Vanguard Veteran with Relic Blade and Storm Shield.

So, for 2 PPM, you get +1 Attack and +1 Wound, at the cost of -2 Strength. (And a pistol, but that's mostly irrelevant.) Except not every Vanguard Veteran can take a Relic Blade.

I'm not gonna call Vanguard Veterans bad-they're certainly not!-but to say that it's 12 points for +1 Wound and Attack is misguided at best.

Relic blade is overcosted. No reason to ever take over a power fist. Which on a VV is 4 points cheaper than a BG full setup. Honsetly I'd take BG over that unit but only because that is too much weapon for a 2 attack model. BG are fine. We can see they are fine by comparing them to custodians. Ogryns need to improve a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I did with a 4+ Invuln on the Custodes. BGV still won.

Interseting. Cause the math shows otherwise.

Custodians go even if they get charged. and win drastically if they pull off the charge. Even without a shooting phase.
BG (cahrge) vs custodes
13x.66= 8.66
8.66x.5 = 4.33
4.33x.5= 2.16 x2 = 1 kill with 1 damage wasted.

Return damage
6x.82 = 4.92
4.92x .66 = 3.25
3.25x .5 = 1.62 (cant get 1.6 wounds so it's ether 1 or 2.) That averages to 3.25 though which is a kill.

It only gets better from there. The marines lost 6 attacks and the custodians only lost 3.

Custodes average 2.5 wounds on the charge and a wound from shooting. This with average 2 kills and sometimes kill 3.

You just compared 135 point unit to a 105 point unit. No dip the Custodes won. They had a close to 30% point advantage.

Also, your odds of killing two BGV with two failed saves is 1/9. Since the shooting is flat 2, the first failed save (if they fail a save against the guns) kills a guy guaranteed, and the next two wounds (if they GET two wounds) each have to roll a 3.

Okay...so...the more expensive unit won. As you'd expect. Because it is better.

Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
33 PPM for a Vanguard Veteran with Relic Blade and Storm Shield.

So, for 2 PPM, you get +1 Attack and +1 Wound, at the cost of -2 Strength. (And a pistol, but that's mostly irrelevant.) Except not every Vanguard Veteran can take a Relic Blade.

I'm not gonna call Vanguard Veterans bad-they're certainly not!-but to say that it's 12 points for +1 Wound and Attack is misguided at best.

Relic blade is overcosted. No reason to ever take over a power fist. Which on a VV is 4 points cheaper than a BG full setup. Honsetly I'd take BG over that unit but only because that is too much weapon for a 2 attack model. BG are fine. We can see they are fine by comparing them to custodians. Ogryns need to improve a bit.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Bladeguard are to cheap. You can't compare stuff to bladeguard veterans. Almost everything will look to expensive.

They are 10 points less than a custodian. Which seems totally fair for -1s -1t -1 bs -1ws and a worse shooting weapon. I guess custodians are OP. LOL. wait we know they are!

"BGV are fine if you compare them to an OP unit."

That's your own words, just summarized. BGV are fine compared to Custodian Guard. And you said Custodian Guard are OP.

Not to mention, if you actually compare them point-to-point, BGV are better than the Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay...so...the more expensive unit won. As you'd expect. Because it is better.

Spoilered for excessive sarcasm.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
33 PPM for a Vanguard Veteran with Relic Blade and Storm Shield.

So, for 2 PPM, you get +1 Attack and +1 Wound, at the cost of -2 Strength. (And a pistol, but that's mostly irrelevant.) Except not every Vanguard Veteran can take a Relic Blade.

I'm not gonna call Vanguard Veterans bad-they're certainly not!-but to say that it's 12 points for +1 Wound and Attack is misguided at best.

Relic blade is overcosted. No reason to ever take over a power fist. Which on a VV is 4 points cheaper than a BG full setup. Honsetly I'd take BG over that unit but only because that is too much weapon for a 2 attack model. BG are fine. We can see they are fine by comparing them to custodians. Ogryns need to improve a bit.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Bladeguard are to cheap. You can't compare stuff to bladeguard veterans. Almost everything will look to expensive.

They are 10 points less than a custodian. Which seems totally fair for -1s -1t -1 bs -1ws and a worse shooting weapon. I guess custodians are OP. LOL. wait we know they are!

"BGV are fine if you compare them to an OP unit."

That's your own words, just summarized. BGV are fine compared to Custodian Guard. And you said Custodian Guard are OP.

Not to mention, if you actually compare them point-to-point, BGV are better than the Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay...so...the more expensive unit won. As you'd expect. Because it is better.

Spoiler:

Hey, I have an idea! Let's compare 550 points of Infantry Squads (100 guys) to 105 points of BGV!

Let's see, that's...

200 shots
100 hits
33.33 wounds
5.56 unsaved

The BGV shoot back and charge, killing five Guard. They then fall back, meaning they can't shoot, and the rest get...

180 shots
90 hits
30 wounds
5 unsaved

That's the entire squad dead! Wow, Infantry Squads are super OP!

Spoilered for excessive sarcasm.

Costodians as an army are OP. Gaurd are not the primary reason they are one of the weaker units they have access too they just have to take them. It is their hq's and stupid PA upgrades that are an issue.

Excessive sarcasm not necessary. Bladegaurd are often compared to custodians as they are very similar units.

We've touched a bit on this before, but if we want to make both Ogryn and Bullgryn worth taking, Bullgryn need to focus more on their defensive stats, while Ogryn should be more like a glass cannon. Both should be upped to 4W a pop, with the Brute Shield giving a 4+ invuln. Make grenadier gauntlets pistol D6 shots to make them usable in CC and instead of avalanche of muscle, make it based around the bullgryn having a veritable shield wall where if they receive a charge that enemies do that do against them do not count as charging when being triggering abilities or rules that require that condition (i.e. attacking first, shock assault, other abilities).

Ogryn keep Avalanche of Muscle, which gets improved to +2A on the charge, while making Ripper Guns S5 AP-1 D2 for both range and their melee profile, and for the shooting profile they auto hit when they're in half range of their weapon, they already mention how it is geared towards filling the air with lead to counteract the Ogryn's lack of accuracy. Make the Ripper Gun melee profile +1AP and +1D on the charge and now you have a unit where you absolutely tear things up in CC, but needs to get there and have the drop on people first.

 Grimskul wrote:
We've touched a bit on this before, but if we want to make both Ogryn and Bullgryn worth taking, Bullgryn need to focus more on their defensive stats, while Ogryn should be more like a glass cannon. Both should be upped to 4W a pop, with the Brute Shield giving a 4+ invuln. Make grenadier gauntlets pistol D6 shots to make them usable in CC and instead of avalanche of muscle, make it based around the bullgryn having a veritable shield wall where if they receive a charge that enemies do that do against them do not count as charging when being triggering abilities or rules that require that condition (i.e. attacking first, shock assault, other abilities).

Bullygryn keep Avalanche of Muscle, which gets improved to +2A on the charge, while making Ripper Guns S5 AP-1 D2 for both range and their melee profile, and for the shooting profile they auto hit when they're in half range of their weapon, they already mention how it is geared towards filling the air with lead to counteract the Ogryn's lack of accuracy. Make the Ripper Gun melee profile +1AP and +1D on the charge and now you have a unit where you absolutely tear things up in CC, but needs to get there and have the drop on people first.

I think you goofed on the names. Second one should be Ogryns, right?

On the whole, 100% agreed that they should have more clearly defined roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Excessive sarcasm not necessary. Bladegaurd are often compared to custodians as they are very similar units.

But when you compare them, you should compare point to point.

Not model to model.

Hell, even model-to-model, I can name a target that Custodian Guard are worse at than BGV. Any T4 W2 MEQ profile-so Tacticals, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Suppressors...

BGV get more hits in the first round of combat (8.67 round one) and not that much less in later rounds (6.67), wounding the same, saving the same until Assault Doctrine, and killing on a failed save.
Custodian Guard get less hits round one (7.5) and more on later rounds (7.5 still), wounding the same, saving the same, and doing an average of 5/3 damage because they can't overkill.

BGV do 9.63 damage on the first round and 7.41 on each later round.
Guard do 6.94 on each round. Because of d3 damage, they do LESS damage than BGV even when they hit more.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
BGV are a little bit too cheap, but this is beating a dead horse.

Bullgryn seem about right to me.

A bladegaurd is a vangaurd veteran with +1 wound and +1 attack. 23 points with just a storm sheild.

You trying to tell me that a MCPS and +1 W and attack is worth more than 12 points? (VV - BG)
But a custodian getting +1 S +1 T +WS +BS and a better melee and shooting weapons is worth less than 10? (BG to custodian)

The master crafted power sword is . . . uh. . . a pretty big deal, lol. And you can Transhuman them. And they have heavy bolt pistols.

And let's not forget that Vanguard Vets are also pretty nicely priced right now.

Really it's not as if they're way OP or anything. I think some of the balance issue we're seeing is the lack of xenos codexes bringing them up to 9th edition par.

Xeno's really just laying all his cards on the table, isn't he? Let me see if I can summarize:

-BGV are fine because Custodes are good too. Also Custodes are OP.
-You have to consider Custodes having a 4+ invuln because you'd never use Custodes without them. Here's a comparison ignoring Chapter Tactics for BGV.
-If you do a specific matchup and work the math in such a way that you take exactly average results and dismiss damage remainders (what's a bell curve?), it skews the results in a way that make BGV look less great.
-Custodes beat BGV 1-on-1 so obviously BGV are fine. It doesn't matter if BGV are significantly cheaper, of course the cheaper model will lose.

Am I missing anything?

 catbarf wrote:
Xeno's really just laying all his cards on the table, isn't he? Let me see if I can summarize:

-BGV are fine because Custodes are good too. Also Custodes are OP.
-You have to consider Custodes having a 4+ invuln because you'd never use Custodes without them. Here's a comparison ignoring Chapter Tactics for BGV.
-If you do a specific matchup and work the math in such a way that you take exactly average results and dismiss damage remainders (what's a bell curve?), it skews the results in a way that make BGV look less great.
-Custodes beat BGV 1-on-1 so obviously BGV are fine. It doesn't matter if BGV are significantly cheaper, of course the cheaper model will lose.

Am I missing anything?

LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

A custodian player complained BG vets are too cheap while playing custodians. I find it hilarious.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Xeno's really just laying all his cards on the table, isn't he? Let me see if I can summarize:

-BGV are fine because Custodes are good too. Also Custodes are OP.
-You have to consider Custodes having a 4+ invuln because you'd never use Custodes without them. Here's a comparison ignoring Chapter Tactics for BGV.
-If you do a specific matchup and work the math in such a way that you take exactly average results and dismiss damage remainders (what's a bell curve?), it skews the results in a way that make BGV look less great.
-Custodes beat BGV 1-on-1 so obviously BGV are fine. It doesn't matter if BGV are significantly cheaper, of course the cheaper model will lose.

Am I missing anything?

LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

A custodian player complained BG vets are too cheap while playing custodians. I find it hilarious.

Who is the custodes player?

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Xeno's really just laying all his cards on the table, isn't he? Let me see if I can summarize:

-BGV are fine because Custodes are good too. Also Custodes are OP.
-You have to consider Custodes having a 4+ invuln because you'd never use Custodes without them. Here's a comparison ignoring Chapter Tactics for BGV.
-If you do a specific matchup and work the math in such a way that you take exactly average results and dismiss damage remainders (what's a bell curve?), it skews the results in a way that make BGV look less great.
-Custodes beat BGV 1-on-1 so obviously BGV are fine. It doesn't matter if BGV are significantly cheaper, of course the cheaper model will lose.

Am I missing anything?

LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

A custodian player complained BG vets are too cheap while playing custodians. I find it hilarious.

Who is the custodes player?

Maybe me? I mean, I own...

8 Custodes models. I've played games with them, way back in early 8th.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

Yeah, the breakdown where you magic away some of the damage the BGVs are doing by assuming average results rather than considering a bell curve, and compare two units that are nowhere near equivalent cost... in a thread about whether a unit is overpriced.

JNA's math is more right. The BGV win.

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

Yeah, the breakdown where you magic away some of the damage the BGVs are doing by assuming average results rather than considering a bell curve, and compare two units that are nowhere near equivalent cost... in a thread about whether a unit is overpriced.

JNA's math is more right. The BGV win.

Nothing wrong with the math.
I even posted it. D3 is superior to flat 2 vs 3 wound models. Maybe that is what is blowing your mind. It doesn't matter if you deal 4 wounds to a 3 wound model. That is what I was saying about wasted damage.

Custodians will never not have a 4++ save. Disingenuous to even consider them without it. BGV though will quite often...As say...UM/White Scars/IF/DA/ Salamanders....have no melee benefit for BGV from their tactic.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

Yeah, the breakdown where you magic away some of the damage the BGVs are doing by assuming average results rather than considering a bell curve, and compare two units that are nowhere near equivalent cost... in a thread about whether a unit is overpriced.

JNA's math is more right. The BGV win.

Nothing wrong with the math.
I even posted it. D3 is superior to flat 2 vs 3 wound models. Maybe that is what is blowing your mind. It doesn't matter if you deal 4 wounds to a 3 wound model. That is what I was saying about wasted damage.

Custodians will never not have a 4++ save. Disingenuous to even consider them without it. BGV though will quite often...As say...UM/White Scars/IF/DA/ Salamanders....have no melee benefit for BGV from their tactic.

And Custodes will frequently be rolling normally, while Marines almost always have RR1s to-hit and to-wound. Custodes are also more expensive in PPM-they SHOULD be better than Bladeguard.

But against a T4 W2 profile, which is very common, they're not. Even past the first round of combat (after Shock Assault) they do less damage.

Edit: Wait wait wait-you just claimed that BGV don't benefit from White Scars? You know, the +1 Damage on the charge super doctrine? The advance or fall back and charge chapter tactic?

Or the DA "+1 to-hit if you didn't move" which applies every round after the first chapter tactic?

Or the Salamanders "Reroll a wound roll each activation" and has the +1 to-wound strat?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL the break down was done above you can draw whatever conclusions you want.

Yeah, the breakdown where you magic away some of the damage the BGVs are doing by assuming average results rather than considering a bell curve, and compare two units that are nowhere near equivalent cost... in a thread about whether a unit is overpriced.

JNA's math is more right. The BGV win.

Nothing wrong with the math.
I even posted it. D3 is superior to flat 2 vs 3 wound models. Maybe that is what is blowing your mind. It doesn't matter if you deal 4 wounds to a 3 wound model. That is what I was saying about wasted damage.

Custodians will never not have a 4++ save. Disingenuous to even consider them without it. BGV though will quite often...As say...UM/White Scars/IF/DA/ Salamanders....have no melee benefit for BGV from their tactic.

And Custodes will frequently be rolling normally, while Marines almost always have RR1s to-hit and to-wound. Custodes are also more expensive in PPM-they SHOULD be better than Bladeguard.

But against a T4 W2 profile, which is very common, they're not. Even past the first round of combat (after Shock Assault) they do less damage.

Edit: Wait wait wait-you just claimed that BGV don't benefit from White Scars? You know, the +1 Damage on the charge super doctrine? The advance or fall back and charge chapter tactic?

Or the DA "+1 to-hit if you didn't move" which applies every round after the first chapter tactic?

Or the Salamanders "Reroll a wound roll each activation" and has the +1 to-wound strat?

IDK how you play custodians. But Captains are literally everywhere and they should be. Not to mention trajen and the -1 to hit banner (probably the most OP thing in the army). Yeah missed a few of those. Thought that salamanders lost the reroll wound thing in the codex. Point is. There are plenty of marines that don't have melee tactics. There are 0 custodians running around with 5++.

Xeno has a point that, when it comes to melee, not a lot of Chapters outside the custom ones affect it, whereas Custodes are always on with a 4++.

We can make the claim of "what about Doctrines" but that's T3 earliest.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I did with a 4+ Invuln on the Custodes. BGV still won.

Interseting. Cause the math shows otherwise.

Custodians go even if they get charged. and win drastically if they pull off the charge. Even without a shooting phase.
BG (cahrge) vs custodes
13x.66= 8.66
8.66x.5 = 4.33
4.33x.5= 2.16 x2 = 1 kill with 1 damage wasted.

Return damage
6x.82 = 4.92
4.92x .66 = 3.25
3.25x .5 = 1.62 (cant get 1.6 wounds so it's ether 1 or 2.) That averages to 3.25 though which is a kill.

It only gets better from there. The marines lost 6 attacks and the custodians only lost 3.

Custodes average 2.5 wounds on the charge and a wound from shooting. This with average 2 kills and sometimes kill 3.

Let's just correct Xeno's as usual faulty maths.

105 points of BGV kills a 45 point custode in 1 turn (42% return)
135 points of Custodes kills a 35 point BGV in 1 turn (26% return)

But Custodes are the OP undercosted unit?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xeno has a point that, when it comes to melee, not a lot of Chapters outside the custom ones affect it, whereas Custodes are always on with a 4++.

We can make the claim of "what about Doctrines" but that's T3 earliest.

DA get +1 to-hit on every turn after the first, or on all turns if they got charged.
White Scars can fall back and charge to get Shock Assault again.
Salamanders get a hit reroll (thought it was wound reroll, which is my bad)

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xeno has a point that, when it comes to melee, not a lot of Chapters outside the custom ones affect it, whereas Custodes are always on with a 4++.

We can make the claim of "what about Doctrines" but that's T3 earliest.

DA get +1 to-hit on every turn after the first, or on all turns if they got charged.
White Scars can fall back and charge to get Shock Assault again.
Salamanders get a hit reroll (thought it was wound reroll, which is my bad)

Thats assuming White Scars have a chance to fall back to begin with. The far most useful part of their rules is the Advance + Charge, and why I'm always assuming White Scars fight first. Dark Angels we have to assume no movement as well. I also don't bother to count in Salamanders for anything because they're overly reliant on Strats and the reroll rule they had was made strictly worse that I don't even consider it. The main take aways to affect the math then are:
1. Blood Angels +1 To Wound on the very first round
2. White Scars and Black Templars charge rules, which means they'll be fighting first
3. Iron Hands 6+++
For the main tactics. Successor Tactics include:
1. +1 to hit IF you charge, so this varies a lot
2. 6 to hit is an auto wound
3. 6 to hit counts as two hits

So like I said, there ACTUALLY isn't a lot, and who knows how Custodes will be treated in their codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xeno has a point that, when it comes to melee, not a lot of Chapters outside the custom ones affect it, whereas Custodes are always on with a 4++.

We can make the claim of "what about Doctrines" but that's T3 earliest.

DA get +1 to-hit on every turn after the first, or on all turns if they got charged.
White Scars can fall back and charge to get Shock Assault again.
Salamanders get a hit reroll (thought it was wound reroll, which is my bad)

Thats assuming White Scars have a chance to fall back to begin with. The far most useful part of their rules is the Advance + Charge, and why I'm always assuming White Scars fight first. Dark Angels we have to assume no movement as well. I also don't bother to count in Salamanders for anything because they're overly reliant on Strats and the reroll rule they had was made strictly worse that I don't even consider it. The main take aways to affect the math then are:
1. Blood Angels +1 To Wound on the very first round
2. White Scars and Black Templars charge rules, which means they'll be fighting first
3. Iron Hands 6+++
For the main tactics. Successor Tactics include:
1. +1 to hit IF you charge, so this varies a lot
2. 6 to hit is an auto wound
3. 6 to hit counts as two hits

So like I said, there ACTUALLY isn't a lot, and who knows how Custodes will be treated in their codex.

Fair enough.

Point-for-point, tacticless BGV still beat Custodian Guard.
And model-to-model, tacticless BGV are still better against T4 W2 models.

But yeah, a decent chunk of BGV won't have a useful Chapter Tactic.

Bullgryns need buffed for sure. I'd say that that kind of abhuman needs another wound for sure. I like their points per model at the moment though.


Normal Ogryn on the other hand have been stupid for 15+ years. They need that +1 wound, buffs to their shooting weapon (more shots and strength please) AND need a points drop. For the last 5 editions of the game they have been a complete joke and waste of points.

While we're on the subject, I like the idea of Nork giving an Ogryn/Bullgryn/Ogryn bodyguard aura bonus. Frankly, an army with 3 full units of Ogryn/Bullgryn lead by Nork would look awesome.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xeno has a point that, when it comes to melee, not a lot of Chapters outside the custom ones affect it, whereas Custodes are always on with a 4++.

We can make the claim of "what about Doctrines" but that's T3 earliest.

DA get +1 to-hit on every turn after the first, or on all turns if they got charged.
White Scars can fall back and charge to get Shock Assault again.
Salamanders get a hit reroll (thought it was wound reroll, which is my bad)

Thats assuming White Scars have a chance to fall back to begin with. The far most useful part of their rules is the Advance + Charge, and why I'm always assuming White Scars fight first. Dark Angels we have to assume no movement as well. I also don't bother to count in Salamanders for anything because they're overly reliant on Strats and the reroll rule they had was made strictly worse that I don't even consider it. The main take aways to affect the math then are:
1. Blood Angels +1 To Wound on the very first round
2. White Scars and Black Templars charge rules, which means they'll be fighting first
3. Iron Hands 6+++
For the main tactics. Successor Tactics include:
1. +1 to hit IF you charge, so this varies a lot
2. 6 to hit is an auto wound
3. 6 to hit counts as two hits

So like I said, there ACTUALLY isn't a lot, and who knows how Custodes will be treated in their codex.

Fair enough.

Point-for-point, tacticless BGV still beat Custodian Guard.
And model-to-model, tacticless BGV are still better against T4 W2 models.

But yeah, a decent chunk of BGV won't have a useful Chapter Tactic.

Now trust me I'm not saying BGV aren't a fantastic deal, I just think that the comparison towards Custodes isn't FAIRLY accurate as we have yet to see what the codex will do for them yet.

This unit versus unit debate is interesting and all, but we all know that even if 40k were to be perfectly balanced it wouldn't be by making every unit that does a given thing exactly equal at it. The fact that BGV and Custodes are close enough and Custodes haven't had their 9th edition changes tells me that those two things are already better balanced than most of 40k.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
This unit versus unit debate is interesting and all, but we all know that even if 40k were to be perfectly balanced it wouldn't be by making every unit that does a given thing exactly equal at it. The fact that BGV and Custodes are close enough and Custodes haven't had their 9th edition changes tells me that those two things are already better balanced than most of 40k.

Which is another fantastic point. GW is gak at balance and until y'all demand more from their rules writers, you won't get what you deserve. Each of us is a king and queen in our own right, so act like it with thr product you're buying!

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I did with a 4+ Invuln on the Custodes. BGV still won.

Interseting. Cause the math shows otherwise.

Custodians go even if they get charged. and win drastically if they pull off the charge. Even without a shooting phase.
BG (cahrge) vs custodes
13x.66= 8.66
8.66x.5 = 4.33
4.33x.5= 2.16 x2 = 1 kill with 1 damage wasted.

Return damage
6x.82 = 4.92
4.92x .66 = 3.25
3.25x .5 = 1.62 (cant get 1.6 wounds so it's ether 1 or 2.) That averages to 3.25 though which is a kill.

It only gets better from there. The marines lost 6 attacks and the custodians only lost 3.

Custodes average 2.5 wounds on the charge and a wound from shooting. This with average 2 kills and sometimes kill 3.

Let's just correct Xeno's as usual faulty maths.

105 points of BGV kills a 45 point custode in 1 turn (42% return)
135 points of Custodes kills a 35 point BGV in 1 turn (26% return)

But Custodes are the OP undercosted unit?

I was comparing 3 models vs 3 models. to see if the more expensive unit would win against the lesser expensive one. I think if BGV were OP - they would cost less and kill more. Turns out that isn't the case. Faulty math is a false claim. The math is correct you just think I should be using 4 BGV instead of 3 because it makes the points closer - which is fine - that isn't what I was trying to do. CG are also troops...objective secured...have tanglefoot as an option so good luck charging them.

Also...The Custodians actually kill 2 on average if you include a shooting phase and can easily kill 3 depending on their damage rolls....which I also included in the posts previous. You seem to be neglecting the fact each CG has a MC bolt rifle essentially with bs 2+. These units are very competive...both of them are. It is an absolute absurdity to claim 1 is significantly better than the other.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xeno has a point that, when it comes to melee, not a lot of Chapters outside the custom ones affect it, whereas Custodes are always on with a 4++.

We can make the claim of "what about Doctrines" but that's T3 earliest.

DA get +1 to-hit on every turn after the first, or on all turns if they got charged.
White Scars can fall back and charge to get Shock Assault again.
Salamanders get a hit reroll (thought it was wound reroll, which is my bad)

Thats assuming White Scars have a chance to fall back to begin with. The far most useful part of their rules is the Advance + Charge, and why I'm always assuming White Scars fight first. Dark Angels we have to assume no movement as well. I also don't bother to count in Salamanders for anything because they're overly reliant on Strats and the reroll rule they had was made strictly worse that I don't even consider it. The main take aways to affect the math then are:
1. Blood Angels +1 To Wound on the very first round
2. White Scars and Black Templars charge rules, which means they'll be fighting first
3. Iron Hands 6+++
For the main tactics. Successor Tactics include:
1. +1 to hit IF you charge, so this varies a lot
2. 6 to hit is an auto wound
3. 6 to hit counts as two hits

So like I said, there ACTUALLY isn't a lot, and who knows how Custodes will be treated in their codex.

Fair enough.

Point-for-point, tacticless BGV still beat Custodian Guard.
And model-to-model, tacticless BGV are still better against T4 W2 models.

But yeah, a decent chunk of BGV won't have a useful Chapter Tactic.

Agreed - this was my claim mostly. Mainly that it is absurd to claim CG have a 5++ though that is actually true in rule. It will just never not have a 4++.

Comparing units in a straight fight is going to miss how these they might face off on the table. I'd be curious to see bat reps of Custodes against marines with BGV - I bet you'd find few direct engagements like proposed. Custodes are as competitive as marines so they're doing something right.

Expecting units to be analogues all the time doesn't necessarily equate to balance. Custodes can come with less point efficient versions of BGV and excel in other areas.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Comparing units in a straight fight is going to miss how these they might face off on the table. I'd be curious to see bat reps of Custodes against marines with BGV - I bet you'd find few direct engagements like proposed. Custodes are as competitive as marines so they're doing something right.

Expecting units to be analogues all the time doesn't necessarily equate to balance. Custodes can come with less point efficient versions of BGV and excel in other areas.

Absolutely. 3 bgv is the only way I run them if I run them at all. I have a SW friend who takes 9 sometimes. 3v3 is probably the most common way these units will meet. The reality is unless you are playing full melee marines you are going to have a few more gaurd units and several hqs bearing down on you as well. You are only getting that first round of combat and they are smoked.