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 Imateria wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The new Lelith stats are k. I just wish they'd lift her to str 5 without any combat drugs so she could wound marines on 3s.

She's S4, at least, with her blades giving her +1S.

That's not an insignificant thing for an Elf.

It would help if you had any clue about the characters old rules. She could already hit at S4, with AP-4 and thanks to her old warlord trait making 6's to hit count as 3 hits she averaged 9 hits on the charge. With the 6's to hit ability baked into her datasheet now I'm expecting the warlord trait to change so she actually hits less than before and though she can fight twice she has to survive the counter attacks first.

Hitting has never been her problem, at S4 and D1 wounding and killing anything other than chaff has been very difficult, and for a gladiator who is supposed to specialise in 1 on 1 combat it's utterly ridiculous.

Might have been better to cause Mortal Wounds on 6's.

Ignoring her explosive 6s she is downing 1.2 marines per assault or 2.4 if you account her double attack if she kills a model.

If she goes against a character with a 4++ save then her lethality goes down to 0.365(0.486 against 5++), again ignoring explosive 6s. That's... nothing special to speak of.

Mind you this is only with what we know as there might be a plethora of extra rules that might follow.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Ignoring her explosive 6s she is downing 1.2 marines per assault or 2.4 if you account her double attack if she kills a model.

If she goes against a character with a 4++ save then her lethality goes down to 0.365(0.486 against 5++), again ignoring explosive 6s. That's... nothing special to speak of.

Mind you this is only with what we know as there might be a plethora of extra rules that might follow.

I hope so. So far most of the stuff seems to be rolling her old rules into the her base Attacks or the weapon's Strength and AP. Even then her AP has had a downgrade, as before it was -4.
I thought her whole theme was showing how she was so good she could pick out the weakpoints in fancy power armor using just a set of ordinary knives.

Iracundus wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Ignoring her explosive 6s she is downing 1.2 marines per assault or 2.4 if you account her double attack if she kills a model.

If she goes against a character with a 4++ save then her lethality goes down to 0.365(0.486 against 5++), again ignoring explosive 6s. That's... nothing special to speak of.

Mind you this is only with what we know as there might be a plethora of extra rules that might follow.

I hope so. So far most of the stuff seems to be rolling her old rules into the her base Attacks or the weapon's Strength and AP. Even then her AP has had a downgrade, as before it was -4.
I thought her whole theme was showing how she was so good she could pick out the weakpoints in fancy power armor using just a set of ordinary knives.

I agree. With what we've seen she is okay at blending T3 with bad armor and not much else. She'll blend through 8 Hormagaunts with her current stats and second attack included. I mean, she's going to be fine against other Eldar, but against the reigning meta she's not going to do much.

I do think that GW has put themselves into a bit of a bind by making Marines so strong and at 2 wounds. One can't help but compare everything to Marine stats.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Ignoring her explosive 6s she is downing 1.2 marines per assault or 2.4 if you account her double attack if she kills a model.

If she goes against a character with a 4++ save then her lethality goes down to 0.365(0.486 against 5++), again ignoring explosive 6s. That's... nothing special to speak of.

Mind you this is only with what we know as there might be a plethora of extra rules that might follow.

I hope so. So far most of the stuff seems to be rolling her old rules into the her base Attacks or the weapon's Strength and AP. Even then her AP has had a downgrade, as before it was -4.
I thought her whole theme was showing how she was so good she could pick out the weakpoints in fancy power armor using just a set of ordinary knives.

I agree. With what we've seen she is okay at blending T3 with bad armor and not much else. She'll blend through 8 Hormagaunts with her current stats and second attack included. I mean, she's going to be fine against other Eldar, but against the reigning meta she's not going to do much.

I do think that GW has put themselves into a bit of a bind by making Marines so strong and at 2 wounds. One can't help but compare everything to Marine stats.

yeah, one of the strongest CQC character in the lore, ffs
But Jain zar, one of the strongest melee phoenix lord can kill 2/3 marine if you roll good enought, soo...
The only really good rule you can give her is that she ignores all saves, otherwise she will die to any semi-decent cqc unit before she can attack again at the end of the phase

 Imateria wrote:
As usual, GW are making sure the galaxy's premier gladiator couldn't fight a random space marine captain to a standstill, D1 on the knives is the real problem here.

...but she totally can do that. She beats AFAIK any standard marine captain loadout, up to and including TH/SS, she just takes both fight phases in a battle round to do it.

She can't one shot him, true, she only deals 3/5 unsaved wounds on average.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
As usual, GW are making sure the galaxy's premier gladiator couldn't fight a random space marine captain to a standstill, D1 on the knives is the real problem here.

...but she totally can do that. She beats AFAIK any standard marine captain loadout, up to and including TH/SS, she just takes both fight phases in a battle round to do it.

She can't one shot him, true, she only deals 3/5 unsaved wounds on average.

So I think its a fair assumption that any aura she ends up with will not effect herself. So even if succubi continue to provide a re roll to hit she won't benefit herself.

She misses on 1's but gets 2 hits on a 6. Essentially she has 7 attacks that average 7 hits then at strength 4. So she will inflict 3.5 wounds before saves verse T4.

Any marine captain is going to have a minimum of a 4++ and 6 wounds. So her ap being -3 and no longer -4 won't factor as much in this instance and ironically makes her worse at killing line infantry lol. Thats 1.75 wounds after saves and she can't fight again as she didn't kill anything.

No idea how your figuring she kills a captain of any variety, it's even worse if the captain is in gravis lol.

Well, I hope to expect extra rules for her hair, quicksilver dodge, Combat drug synergy and a suitably killy warlord trait. I think she'll be decent. She's currently 90pts iirc.

obviously I'm assuming she'll keep her current "A League Apart" and "Quicksilver Dodge" rules, like how Drazar kept his Lethal Precision rule and Tormenters rule despite those not being previewed, and how Jain Zar kept her War Shout and Acrobatic rule despite those not being previewed.

This is just how GW tends to preview new models for existing units, unless the full statblock gets leaked. They talk about the new rules and the rules that got changed.

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
As usual, GW are making sure the galaxy's premier gladiator couldn't fight a random space marine captain to a standstill, D1 on the knives is the real problem here.

...but she totally can do that. She beats AFAIK any standard marine captain loadout, up to and including TH/SS, she just takes both fight phases in a battle round to do it.

She can't one shot him, true, she only deals 3/5 unsaved wounds on average.

So I think its a fair assumption that any aura she ends up with will not effect herself. So even if succubi continue to provide a re roll to hit she won't benefit herself.

She misses on 1's but gets 2 hits on a 6. Essentially she has 7 attacks that average 7 hits then at strength 4. So she will inflict 3.5 wounds before saves verse T4.

Any marine captain is going to have a minimum of a 4++ and 6 wounds. So her ap being -3 and no longer -4 won't factor as much in this instance and ironically makes her worse at killing line infantry lol. Thats 1.75 wounds after saves and she can't fight again as she didn't kill anything.

No idea how your figuring she kills a captain of any variety, it's even worse if the captain is in gravis lol.

Even assuming she keeps her ability to reroll hit and wound rolls against Characters that only pushes her up to 3 wounds against a T4, 4++ characters and less than 2 against anything T5, 4++.

 Rinkydink wrote:
Well, I hope to expect extra rules for her hair, quicksilver dodge, Combat drug synergy and a suitably killy warlord trait. I think she'll be decent. She's currently 90pts iirc.

Lelith does not use Combat Drugs - thats kinda her thing IIRC.

Hopefully keeps her dodge and all the rest.

She used to just ignore all armour....

They'll need to change stim injection strat to make attacks D2. That will make her decent.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
As usual, GW are making sure the galaxy's premier gladiator couldn't fight a random space marine captain to a standstill, D1 on the knives is the real problem here.

...but she totally can do that. She beats AFAIK any standard marine captain loadout, up to and including TH/SS, she just takes both fight phases in a battle round to do it.

She can't one shot him, true, she only deals 3/5 unsaved wounds on average.

She doesn't get both fight phases in that fight. She only gets a second fight phase if she destroys a model. Which is fine if you want to murder guardsmen, but useless one-on-one.

the_scotsman wrote:
obviously I'm assuming she'll keep her current "A League Apart" and "Quicksilver Dodge" rules, like how Drazar kept his Lethal Precision rule and Tormenters rule despite those not being previewed, and how Jain Zar kept her War Shout and Acrobatic rule despite those not being previewed.

This is just how GW tends to preview new models for existing units, unless the full statblock gets leaked. They talk about the new rules and the rules that got changed.

Why would you assume those things?

She had Natural perfection and they just debunked your theory in this preview as it changed.

BTW I will be shocked if Drazhar still fights twice. The fact that they gave Lelith a fight twice ability with much higher restrictions makes me even more confident in those feelings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
As usual, GW are making sure the galaxy's premier gladiator couldn't fight a random space marine captain to a standstill, D1 on the knives is the real problem here.

...but she totally can do that. She beats AFAIK any standard marine captain loadout, up to and including TH/SS, she just takes both fight phases in a battle round to do it.

She can't one shot him, true, she only deals 3/5 unsaved wounds on average.

So I think its a fair assumption that any aura she ends up with will not effect herself. So even if succubi continue to provide a re roll to hit she won't benefit herself.

She misses on 1's but gets 2 hits on a 6. Essentially she has 7 attacks that average 7 hits then at strength 4. So she will inflict 3.5 wounds before saves verse T4.

Any marine captain is going to have a minimum of a 4++ and 6 wounds. So her ap being -3 and no longer -4 won't factor as much in this instance and ironically makes her worse at killing line infantry lol. Thats 1.75 wounds after saves and she can't fight again as she didn't kill anything.

No idea how your figuring she kills a captain of any variety, it's even worse if the captain is in gravis lol.

Even assuming she keeps her ability to reroll hit and wound rolls against Characters that only pushes her up to 3 wounds against a T4, 4++ characters and less than 2 against anything T5, 4++.

Exactly, and her double fight relying on destroyed models makes her very awkward to use even verse massed infantry once you consider how successful charges are completely verse multiple targets and then how casualty removal and pile ins work.

BTW the single damage makes her tough even verse things with a 6+++ like Ork boyz near a painboy, GSC near a banner or other DE if PFP still works the same.

Don't even get me started with necrons, she will bounce off them in spectacular fashion. Especially warriors, even in min units sizes since they will reanimate in between her attack sequences.

Voss wrote:
She doesn't get both fight phases in that fight. She only gets a second fight phase if she destroys a model. Which is fine if you want to murder guardsmen, but useless one-on-one.

If you assume she gets 8 attacks rerolling all hits and wounds, she should get 9.33 hits (someone check this), 7 wounds, so 3.5ish go through a 4++ save. That's not too bad - and you don't need to fluke the luck too much to do 5.

There's a lot of ifs, but she could be okay on the table if remaining at 90ish points.

Without those rules its quite a bit worse.

 bullyboy wrote:
They'll need to change stim injection strat to make attacks D2. That will make her decent.

Shes straight edge though. It would be a background change to give her access to drugs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Voss wrote:
She doesn't get both fight phases in that fight. She only gets a second fight phase if she destroys a model. Which is fine if you want to murder guardsmen, but useless one-on-one.

If you assume she gets 8 attacks rerolling all hits and wounds, she should get 9.33 hits (someone check this), 7 wounds, so 3.5ish go through a 4++ save. That's not too bad - and you don't need to fluke the luck too much to do 5.

There's a lot of ifs, but she could be okay on the table if remaining at 90ish points.

Without those rules its quite a bit worse.

She needs two things for my money.

1. The impaler to remain an option (needs to be on the sprue so I am doubtful)

2. She needs to keep her current league apart rerolls.

I'll fully admit it's still too early to completely call it, but working with what we know right now she isn't really anything special. A pair of shredders handle light infantry better, from a safe range and earlier in the turn and she will bounce off all but scrub level characters. Which is kind of sad coming from a cyber punk murder gladiator who's entire shtick is one v one dueling.

Lelith is 7 attacks at WS2+, S4, AP-3, D1, 6s to-hit generate an extra hit.

Without rerolls, she gets 1 hit per attack on average.
With rerolls, she gets 7/6 hits per attack, for 8 and 1/6th hit in a round.

Against MEQ (no rerolls) she does 3.5 wounds and 2.92 damage. Enough to body a Marine on average.
Assuming 7 hits (since I don't know how to do exploding 6s on Anydice) she has an 86.21% chance of killing at least one Marine, netting her a second round of fighting. Also a 32.27% chance of killing two, and a measly 2.35% chance of three. (Assuming the MEQ have no defensive buffs.)

Against a Captain (T4, 3+/4++) she does 3.5 wounds and 1.75 damage.
With full rerolls, she does 3.06 damage.
Anydice says that with 8 hits, she has a 13.74% chance of doing 5 wounds and a 3.60% chance of 6 wounds.
Anydice says that with 9 hits, she has a 21.66% chance of doing 5 wounds, and a 7.40% chance of 6 wounds.
Up the Captain to T5, and the odds change to...
8 hits: 4.24% chance of 5 wounds, .75% of 6 wounds, and .08% chance of 7 wounds
9 hits: 7.39% chance of 5 wounds, 1.72% chance of 6 wounds, and .26% chance of 7 wounds

Considering the massive variety in Captain builds, if someone wants me to run a duel between them, let me know what build is preferred.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming 7 hits (since I don't know how to do exploding 6s on Anydice).

2+ to hit and exploding dice makes it auto-hit on average as for every 1 you get a 6 that adds the lost attack back

 kodos wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming 7 hits (since I don't know how to do exploding 6s on Anydice).

2+ to hit and exploding dice makes it auto-hit on average as for every 1 you get a 6 that adds the lost attack back

I know that. I said that. But there are times where you'll miss an attack and not generate an extra to make up for it, or times when you hit with everything and get extras. I don't know how to put that into anydice, and doing it by hand would be REALLY tedious.

 kodos wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming 7 hits (since I don't know how to do exploding 6s on Anydice).

2+ to hit and exploding dice makes it auto-hit on average as for every 1 you get a 6 that adds the lost attack back

That's good if you want to determine average amount of damage. Less if you want to calculate odds of causing X damage which is often more relevant info.

Not adding much, but by my calculations, with 8 attacks (assuming strife, may change), exploding 6s and reroll hits and wounds she has approximately a 20% chance to do 5 wounds to a T4 4++ character. So you wouldn't need much of an additional buff to take things over into quite reasonable.

Tyel wrote:
Not adding much, but by my calculations, with 8 attacks (assuming strife, may change), exploding 6s and reroll hits and wounds she has approximately a 20% chance to do 5 wounds to a T4 4++ character. So you wouldn't need much of an additional buff to take things over into quite reasonable.

I mean, you already needed 3 special rules to get to that 20% chance.

 Imateria wrote:
I mean, you already needed 3 special rules to get to that 20% chance.

I guess never say never when it comes to DE, but I'd expect she'd retain the rerolls and *some* form of chapter tactic.

Since I expect power from pain to be reworked *AND* (I know, greedy), DE to get a whole new mechanic to rival doctrines/protocols/Nurgle's Gift, there's clear scope for something that boosts her offensive power. (See also stratagems etc that could just make her 2 damage or something.)

 Mr Morden wrote:
Interesting no mention of "Core" in the Palatine.

I wonder if we are (as normal now with GW) no options.

Lelith - not keen on new model (luckily still have older one) and as others have said need to see what her abilities are like to tell if she is back to glory days.

To me it seems likely its worded that way to match the current sisters codex, which currently has no Core keyworded units, which could also imply Sisters arent getting an updated codex just yet. Admech didnt get a new codex with all their units with Engine War, the same could be said for Sisters. It would be rather annoying and stupid for them to do that but I wouldnt put it past GW.

Remember this box was supposed to be out months ago, as was the DE codex, then there was the preview with the new SoB mech which means a codex is definitely soonish but the box likely still has all the old paperwork for the original release date so they want that out before the new codex to avoid causing even greater confusion by doing it the other way around, or even simultaneously.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Remember this box was supposed to be out months ago, as was the DE codex, then there was the preview with the new SoB mech which means a codex is definitely soonish but the box likely still has all the old paperwork for the original release date so they want that out before the new codex to avoid causing even greater confusion by doing it the other way around, or even simultaneously.

Yeah.

Production problems could obviously shift things around, but based on what we've seen I'd expect Orks/Ad Mech/Sisters to be the next wave of codexes - order to be determined.

 deffrekka wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Interesting no mention of "Core" in the Palatine.

I wonder if we are (as normal now with GW) no options.

Lelith - not keen on new model (luckily still have older one) and as others have said need to see what her abilities are like to tell if she is back to glory days.

To me it seems likely its worded that way to match the current sisters codex, which currently has no Core keyworded units, which could also imply Sisters arent getting an updated codex just yet. Admech didnt get a new codex with all their units with Engine War, the same could be said for Sisters. It would be rather annoying and stupid for them to do that but I wouldnt put it past GW.

We got new necron rules like new overlord with zero mention of core despite new necron codex being known.

It just means codex isnt' coming literally on same day as palatine is out. Aka no preorder on 20th. That's all.

If it had core it would be USELESS until codex comes. Same as necron abilities would have been USELESS had they had core right from the get go rather than coming with codex.

You are overthinking. For all the article reveals sister codex could be preorder on 27th.

Tyel wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Remember this box was supposed to be out months ago, as was the DE codex, then there was the preview with the new SoB mech which means a codex is definitely soonish but the box likely still has all the old paperwork for the original release date so they want that out before the new codex to avoid causing even greater confusion by doing it the other way around, or even simultaneously.

Yeah.

Production problems could obviously shift things around, but based on what we've seen I'd expect Orks/Ad Mech/Sisters to be the next wave of codexes - order to be determined.

I'd assume Admech (we have seen box art in the new style, and they are included in Charadon) first, then orks (new models have been teased for them alongside the new admech, lelith, and Palatine who is coming out in a battlebox), and sisters last of the three (Sisturians shown off more recently than the other models)

Daemons could also sneak in somewhere pretty easily to tie into Belakor with a 40k release- would be an easy codex plus cards only release.

I remember there being a marine chapter playing whack-a-mole with the arch-arsonists, every time they assumed they got him, another one popped up. Does anyone remember who they were?

 Jidmah wrote:
I remember there being a marine chapter playing whack-a-mole with the arch-arsonists, every time they assumed they got him, another one popped up. Does anyone remember who they were?

Well in 5ed Ork Codex it was specifically Ultramarines that were keeping orks in check by doing that.