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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Notably, if she fails to body a MEQ, she just stops cold. Though that'll only happen about 15% of the time, according to AnyDice.

And she may still be +1A from Strife, which cuts that down a little. She may also give herself reroll 1s if Necrons are any indication.

Potentially true... But that's a 95 point buffing unit that does pretty much the same damage. With no Relics, Strats, or Chapter Tactics to improve themselves.

As mentioned above, she blends GEQs better... But that's not an issue in the current game, really.

I don't think it's that she doesn't have a role...it's that her role is weird and doesn't fit what it should be.

In general, "cheap cut price horde blender" is not really what a legendary duelist should excel at.

This is a problem with aeldari generally at this point - after so many years of stat inflation for imperium units, aeldari have been turned more and more into bargain basement garbage with cheap points but low power level, and that feels weird and out of keeping with how things ought to work.

A lot of people were hoping that GW would actually remedy this situation in the 9th edition aeldari books, but from what we've seen so far, DE is still going to be a bargain basement cheap garbage codex. Just with slightly better bargain basement garbage stats.

And she's also in direct competition with Drazar, with his new statline if he keeps his fight twice always special rule he's just...100% better lelith. Against all targets. He's 130pts vs 90pts which is a good chunk, but man if he keeps all his current special rules he just kills fething ANYTHING he touches. And he works with all subfactions, so he is 100% in direct competition with lelith. I havent run the numbers but he gets 2 fewer attacks (assuming lelith gets the Strife +1) but they're S5 with +1 to wound, so I think drazar actually does kill equal or more GEQs than lelith, and hes massively superior vs eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else.

Also, what I'd consider the most likely statline changes for regular succubi would make them better than lelith for a lot of stuff too. +1A, and the glaive with D2 and no more -1 to hit would make a regular el cheapo succubus really quite good at killing MEQs, the thing the game is actually for at this point.

If the Blood Glaive is still there, a Red Grief Succubus would definitely be better then Lelith.

the_scotsman wrote:
And she's also in direct competition with Drazar, with his new statline if he keeps his fight twice always special rule he's just...100% better lelith. Against all targets. He's 130pts vs 90pts which is a good chunk, but man if he keeps all his current special rules he just kills fething ANYTHING he touches. And he works with all subfactions, so he is 100% in direct competition with lelith. I havent run the numbers but he gets 2 fewer attacks (assuming lelith gets the Strife +1) but they're S5 with +1 to wound, so I think drazar actually does kill equal or more GEQs than lelith, and hes massively superior vs eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else.

Also, what I'd consider the most likely statline changes for regular succubi would make them better than lelith for a lot of stuff too. +1A, and the glaive with D2 and no more -1 to hit would make a regular el cheapo succubus really quite good at killing MEQs, the thing the game is actually for at this point.

Drazhar is actually hitting at S6, with a flat 3 damage. We've yet to see his duel blades profile but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got 7 attacks at S5, that virtually makes him better against everything than Lelith.

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
And she's also in direct competition with Drazar, with his new statline if he keeps his fight twice always special rule he's just...100% better lelith. Against all targets. He's 130pts vs 90pts which is a good chunk, but man if he keeps all his current special rules he just kills fething ANYTHING he touches. And he works with all subfactions, so he is 100% in direct competition with lelith. I havent run the numbers but he gets 2 fewer attacks (assuming lelith gets the Strife +1) but they're S5 with +1 to wound, so I think drazar actually does kill equal or more GEQs than lelith, and hes massively superior vs eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else.

Also, what I'd consider the most likely statline changes for regular succubi would make them better than lelith for a lot of stuff too. +1A, and the glaive with D2 and no more -1 to hit would make a regular el cheapo succubus really quite good at killing MEQs, the thing the game is actually for at this point.

Drazhar is actually hitting at S6, with a flat 3 damage. We've yet to see his duel blades profile but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got 7 attacks at S5, that virtually makes him better against everything than Lelith.

Yeah, that's kind of my default assumption. S6 damage three with a +1 to wound (I'd expect him to keep as its keyed to INCUBI only) makes him a legitimate threat to everything up to and including tanks. He wounds knights on 4s. He's got a fairly similar statline and a bit higher threat level as a smash captain with no mobility wargear, which makes sense as he doesn't bring as much of a buff capability as "All Core within 6 reroll 1s to hit"

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

She doesn't kill a fething warlock on a bike in the fight phase on average.

I don't give a gak if she's 5 points and as such technically vastly undercosted, her combat is hilariously anemic compared to any respectable combat character. S4 D1 is fething pathetic, even with seven attacks with AP3 and WS2+.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

She doesn't kill a fething warlock on a bike in the fight phase on average.

I don't give a gak if she's 5 points and as such technically vastly undercosted, her combat is hilariously anemic compared to any respectable combat character. S4 D1 is fething pathetic, even with seven attacks with AP3 and WS2+.

Also she is a one off special character. You cant take more than one.
If you compare her to the likes of Ragnar its cringe bad..

For sure her make or break point will be any special rules. As is it's hard to deny she's hilariously weak compared to characters in her weight class.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think it's that she doesn't have a role...it's that her role is weird and doesn't fit what it should be.

In general, "cheap cut price horde blender" is not really what a legendary duelist should excel at.

This is a problem with aeldari generally at this point - after so many years of stat inflation for imperium units, aeldari have been turned more and more into bargain basement garbage with cheap points but low power level, and that feels weird and out of keeping with how things ought to work.

A lot of people were hoping that GW would actually remedy this situation in the 9th edition aeldari books, but from what we've seen so far, DE is still going to be a bargain basement cheap garbage codex. Just with slightly better bargain basement garbage stats.

I hear you, but I also feel like Lelith's current rules ran into the opposite problem. I always feel like she's okay at killing characters, but pretty bad at killing everything else. She's not known only for dueling. I'd rather have her prove her prowess against mooks and then have a bit of tension when going up against their boss. And I definitely don't want her to have arbitrarily high damage characteristics or whatever that lets her auto delete daemon princes.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I hear you, but I also feel like Lelith's current rules ran into the opposite problem. I always feel like she's okay at killing characters, but pretty bad at killing everything else. She's not known only for dueling. I'd rather have her prove her prowess against mooks and then have a bit of tension when going up against their boss. And I definitely don't want her to have arbitrarily high damage characteristics or whatever that lets her auto delete daemon princes.

Given she's not pointed dissimilar to a daemon prince and has no psychic, no force-multiplier-role, etc.. she should auto-delete a Daemon Prince (and Daemon Princes generally should come down on toughness, attacks, etc.. if they keep their re-roll 1s, psychics, etc.. , or go up to 200+ points, which is what Eldar pay for DP-style models like the Avatar or Yncrane).

I might actually prefer something where Lelith has fewer Attacks but inflicts MW on infantry and monsters. The idea being she lands deliberate blows with such precision that mortal armor is no protection at all and even things like energy fields, her senses are so fine tuned she can sense tiny flickers or weakpoints and pierce them with her otherwise vanilla ordinary steel knives.

The thing is, the Dark Eldar don't lack for chaff blenders so making Lelith another chaff blender doesn't really add anything new to the faction as a whole. While Drazhar might do damage through sheer number of high strength attacks doing multiple Damage, a contrast might instead be for Lelith to be the precision scalpel. A few more precise hits rather than the hurricane of blows that Drazhar is depicted as being.

Mortal wounds would be perfect for Lelith.

Yeah, I 'd prefer GW to take a step back from constant stat inflation and actually think about their design choices. I'd love to see Lelith with fewer attacks but each one extremely lethal so instead of just "moar numbers!!111!!!" we get something a little more nuanced.

You could even justify her being weaker against hordes because she doesn't care about them and prefers to hunt the enemy characters, the trade-off being she's really good against those characters. Maybe even give her a rule that scales her damage or attacks up depending on the enemy's wounds or attacks characteristics.

GW is recently taking that road fortunately.

Models like the nightbringer are extremely scary, but not due to the stats.

Suppose for example that Lelith ignores all saves, or has a rule similar to the tyranid artifact. After the fight roll a dice. If you get a number higher than the enemy remaining wounds, you slay the model.

I remember when GW made a post on warhammer community where all 40k characters had a tournament showdown

Lelith won, even vs a freaking solitaire

i am really courius now

Spoletta wrote:
GW is recently taking that road fortunately.

Models like the nightbringer are extremely scary, but not due to the stats.

Suppose for example that Lelith ignores all saves, or has a rule similar to the tyranid artifact. After the fight roll a dice. If you get a number higher than the enemy remaining wounds, you slay the model.

Its an issue with GW's shortsighted design where they constantly introduce stop-gap measures to fundamental problems.

Plethora of FnP's, invuls and now damage reduction mechanics all to try and stem the problem of excessive lethality while at the same time introducing mechanics to avoid or bypass the very mechanics they use to patch up the problem.

If lelith has any additional special rules of note, it will be rules that she already has. They would have previewed "ignores all saves" or something similarly incredible.

If she still has "A cut above" and the CoS +1A on the charge, as well as her 3++ dodge, she will be perfectly functional, as "Selfish Version" of a space marine captain that trades the much more powerful "reroll 1s to hit with almost everything in the codex" aura for a narrower "reroll 1s to hit only in close combat with 3 units" aura, and gains extra killing power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't had a computer for a month so caught back up on Warhammer Community articles, am I crazy or is Lelith's melee so dogshit that she only kills a single marine on average if she doesn't double fight?

Jesus Christ.

Apparently at 90 pts shes betetr then a smash captain... So ive been told.. That is of course until you factor in relics, traits and doctrines.

She doesn't kill a fething warlock on a bike in the fight phase on average.

I don't give a gak if she's 5 points and as such technically vastly undercosted, her combat is hilariously anemic compared to any respectable combat character. S4 D1 is fething pathetic, even with seven attacks with AP3 and WS2+.

I'm sorry, but according to the fluff she's just a puny eldar, it's honestly overpowered that she should be able to kill one space marine. In a single round of combat? Come on, don't you KNOW what a space marine is? Maybe a guardsman, like not a catachan but a normal run of the mill guardsman, it's OK if she can fight one of those.

 InVerno wrote:
I remember when GW made a post on warhammer community where all 40k characters had a tournament showdown

Lelith won, even vs a freaking solitaire

i am really courius now

3++ is decent and the attacks will add up.

The problem is that in a game things don't exist in a vacuum. She can charge something, do little. Your opponent can then just psychic/counter-charge to reliably delete. Which is generally why assault has to be auto-clear unless you have a mountain of defensive abilities (see DG/DA Terminators).

But at the same time, she's probably still 90 points. She's 2/3rds the price of Drazar - and nowhere near a Daemon Prince. Depending on things to be seen, she may be a suitable upgrade on a Succubus if you were going to take one. As I've said, you wouldn't need many bonuses to push her over to have a probable 1st turn kill on a range of 100 point characters. If for example Power From Pain gave +1 S on turn 3 or something.

Tyel wrote:

 InVerno wrote:
I remember when GW made a post on warhammer community where all 40k characters had a tournament showdown

Lelith won, even vs a freaking solitaire

i am really courius now

3++ is decent and the attacks will add up.

The problem is that in a game things don't exist in a vacuum. She can charge something, do little. Your opponent can then just psychic/counter-charge to reliably delete. Which is generally why assault has to be auto-clear unless you have a mountain of defensive abilities (see DG/DA Terminators).

But at the same time, she's probably still 90 points. She's 2/3rds the price of Drazar - and nowhere near a Daemon Prince. Depending on things to be seen, she may be a suitable upgrade on a Succubus if you were going to take one. As I've said, you wouldn't need many bonuses to push her over to have a probable 1st turn kill on a range of 100 point characters. If for example Power From Pain gave +1 S on turn 3 or something.

with No Escape you don't necessarily NEED to pull a turn 1 kill for her to be effective. If she can grab a character and survive their attacks, she can be quite inconvenient.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/16/we-raided-codex-drukhari-and-found-7-rules-youll-want-to-see/

article with rules sneak peek. TRUEBORNS ARE BACK BABY

Master Arcons, Succubi, Haemonculai!

Raiding force is PERFECT now!

Trueborns? Colour me surprised.

Do they cost points?

PenitentJake wrote:
Master Arcons, Succubi, Haemonculai!

Raiding force is PERFECT now!

yeah, no need to bring 3 patrols if you dont want to anymore.
Poisoned tongue actually getting a dope obsession too.
And the way its worded makes me think poisoned might be getting different values depending on the weapon?

Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

Me!

Excited about the changes to Detachments. The 8th Edition execution of Drukhari detachments was certainly a mess.

At the same time - Power from pain is kinda nerfed. No more 6+ FNP. 6++ save now on turn 1...kinda not great.

Trueborn though....2+ to hit all the time? Depending on how many master archons you can bring this could actually be quite good.

Poisoned tongue got a sweet buff. I wonder what will happen with the other kabals?

It seems pretty implied the Bloodbrides will be back, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
At the same time - Power from pain is kinda nerfed. No more 6+ FNP. 6++ save now on turn 1...kinda not great.

Trueborn though....2+ to hit all the time? Depending on how many master archons you can bring this could actually be quite good.

Poisoned tongue got a sweet buff. I wonder what will happen with the other kabals?

I dare say that turn 2 advance and charge makes it easier to stay in cover and then come out swinging more reliably so the loss of FNP only hurts big boys, but I'll bet we'll see -1D sprinkled throughout.

The table is a bunch better overall.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Trueborns? Colour me surprised.

Do they cost points?

Seems like it. Hopefully not too many, because the benefit for them is fairly minor - they ignore BS modifiers, get +1ld and get BS2+ basically. So, one buff really only ever applies to the dude you give a heavy weapon or if you happen to be fighting one of the few untis in the game with a built-in -1 to hit, and the other is rarely going to come up because

Overall impressions:

The good: Everything but Power from Pain, basically. I love it all as long as it's properly costed (looking at you, super minor trueborn buff that's mostly just fun for the fluff). Better combat drugs, upgraded HQs that let you actually fight enemy HQs, poisoned tongue reworked into something that looks pretty solid, raiding force is fething AMAZING... yeah. A+. Looks awesome, very excited for the codex.

The bad: Power from Pain. Going from 6+FNP and to 6++ is a biiiiiiiiiiiig nerf. And the fact that they've just moved it over and made it our "equivalent" to doctrines is just...bad. Real real bad. Every unit that already had an invuln save gets no benefit (though I anticipate the haemie covens "inured to pain" is going to turn into a -1 damage ability and that's why Wracks dropped from 12ppm to 8ppm as they get no benefit from -1d and basically just drop from 5++ 6+FNP to 6++, ironically becoming LESS durable than kabalites and...honestly, probably Wyches too, despite durability being their supposed thing.

A man can dream that Dodge goes from "6++ out of combat 4++ in combat" to soemthing like "-1 to hit, 4++ in combat" but if not, wyches also just...don't get anything from PFP turn 1.