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 Sasori wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

How is PFP not the Doctrine equivalent rule? Reads the same as Contagions/Protocols/Doctrines to me.

Yeah PfP is their doctrine equivalent. As far as the preview goes, they are lacking a disgustingly resilient/reanimation protocols/angels of death kind of rule.
Nobody has something equivalent to SM's "super doctrine" as far as I know.

 vipoid wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon.

One thing that gives me a sliver of hope is that the article says "By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities..."

It implies that Master Archons might be able to access alternative abilities, which could be nice.

That said, it seems weird to lock artefact and warlord traits to these.

And, honestly, the Soulhelm just looks like something Archons should have as standard.

IF they keep it similar to Marines upgrades.
Upgrading to master Archon mean 1 or 2 new abilities or upgrades to current ones. (quick example marine apotecaries can heal a fixed 3 heals per wound instead 1d3 and use a stratagem for free per round)

Access to a specific relic and warlord trait beyond the core ones.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Kabalites are 1 special per 5 and 1 heavy per 10 at the moment, and the Venom only holds 5 so there's no chance of getting 3 special and heavy weapons in the same boat. Raiders hold 10 though. The problem is that you have to take a Master Archon, which will cost you points, before you can upgrade 1 unit to Trueborn, which may also cost points. In and MSU army, 1 unit being slightly better than others isn't worth much.

So from what I can tell - we don't know what else master archon gives you or if it's just CP or point cost.

It must give you some kind of bonus other than being able to take a unit of trueborn right?

Marks of Chaos say... nope. Sometimes a GW keyword is... just a keyword. Hanging alone and afraid at the end of datasheet, interacting with nothing.
Though it could be like the SM 'Chapter Command' abilities, and give a bonus rule and access to... stuff. Given how crap archons are, the shown relic and warlord trait are irritating 'options' that feel mandatory unless something else is even more better.


Realspace raid is annoying. Both in the 'one of everything' requirement (for both troops and HQs) and just the messy word salad that's vaguely trying to convey rules adjustments.

dhallnet wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

How is PFP not the Doctrine equivalent rule? Reads the same as Contagions/Protocols/Doctrines to me.

Yeah PfP is their doctrine equivalent. As far as the preview goes, they are lacking a disgustingly resilient/reanimation protocols/angels of death kind of rule.
Nobody has something equivalent to SM's "super doctrine" as far as I know.

Yeah, I misspoke. It is equivalent to the doctrine, not the super-doctrine. The point I was trying to make was that Drukhari no longer have anything that applies army-wide no matter what, whether souping or not souping, like every other army in 9th so far gets. Unless they are hiding it from us, which would be pretty bizarre.

Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon.

One thing that gives me a sliver of hope is that the article says "By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities..."

It implies that Master Archons might be able to access alternative abilities, which could be nice.

That said, it seems weird to lock artefact and warlord traits to these.

And, honestly, the Soulhelm just looks like something Archons should have as standard.

IF they keep it similar to Marines upgrades.
Upgrading to master Archon mean 1 or 2 new abilities or upgrades to current ones. (quick example marine apotecaries can heal a fixed 3 heals per wound instead 1d3 and use a stratagem for free per round)

Access to a specific relic and warlord trait beyond the core ones.

Oh, that's rather disappointing then.

Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

They did but we don't know if they didn't get anything else. As far as we know, they could get a a new army wide rule, a special rule for coven/cult/kabal like DAs have with ravenwing/deathwing or nothing at all.

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

I'm really hoping there's a decent list and not just one or two.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

Well as the dust settles and more codices get released you'll definitely see Death Guard less.

Only thing I can say is that the book made playing Death Guard actually fun. The 8th edition codex was a chore that got a sliver of a lifeline in War of the Spider.

Personally I think Death Guard will be played less because the next codices might actually get the same round of "fun". I mean, I can definitely see myself playing Death Guard less if Drukhari is a super fun codex. That's what has kinda surprised me in the past 3 codices is that they actually feel fun to play and I do hope GW manages to pull a hat trick and do the same for all the upcoming codices.

My codex doesn't need to be top tier, but if it is fun to play I am all for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Not necessarily. If other armies get their signature weapons converted to knock off heavy bolters, that's a pure boon for DG armies.

They'll always have a space in the meta as a hard counter to reliance on multi-damage weapons.

In a meta that is heavy on Space Marines Death Guard are there to punish those who obsessively tailor their list towards anti-Space Marine.

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

I'm really hoping there's a decent list and not just one or two.

Nah, itll be the same as chapter master/master apoth etc. One ability, one warlord trait and one relic for each one.

Would it be better if it had a list of abilities, given we have all of three hq choices? Yes. Am I expecting that at all? Noo.

I'm also sadly not expecting a list of invisible wargear ala crons. Sadface.

"By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities and a powerful Relic for the taking."

Reading the words, I took "unlocking new abilities" to mean... there'd be some options.

But I can equally see how you'd describe the outlined rule and optional warlord trait as "abilities". Which is probably more likely.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

I'm really hoping there's a decent list and not just one or two.

Not going to lie, I fully expect its just that once per game fight twice ability, that warlord trait and that relic.

Which makes me wonder what the 'master succubus' gets, because seriously I'd want all those things on the better combat character.

It makes me laugh that an Archon with the once per game fight twice with no conditions and the Djin Blade makes Lelith look utterly terrible as a character duelist (her actual job).

I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

I have to say I'm fairly surprised.. there's actual rules so tahts good.

Looking forward to all the stratagems.

I think they made the detachments needlessly complicated yet again to the point an FAQ will be needed.

Looking forward to seeing what stratagems / traits will be available if any.

You guys think there will be faction traits ?

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

dhallnet wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

They did but we don't know if they didn't get anything else. As far as we know, they could get a a new army wide rule, a special rule for coven/cult/kabal like DAs have with ravenwing/deathwing or nothing at all.

Yeah, but wouldn't that be a bizarre thing not to include in an article titled "We Raided Codex: Drukhari and Found 7 Rules You’ll Want To See"? Wouldn't a new faction-wide rule be the very top of the list?

I mean it's GW so what makes sense isn't always what happens. But you would definitely think a new faction rule would have been front and center if it existed.

yukishiro1 wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

They did but we don't know if they didn't get anything else. As far as we know, they could get a a new army wide rule, a special rule for coven/cult/kabal like DAs have with ravenwing/deathwing or nothing at all.

Yeah, but wouldn't that be a bizarre thing not to include in an article titled "We Raided Codex: Drukhari and Found 7 Rules You’ll Want To See"? Wouldn't a new faction-wide rule be the very top of the list?

I mean it's GW so what makes sense isn't always what happens. But you would definitely think a new faction rule would have been front and center if it existed.

Eh as you said GW doesn't always make sense, and on top of that Warhammer Community lies from time to time. We also have another 3 days to go so maybe that is a reason for them to save up on some rule reveals.

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

The wings are great for converting bits...

Man dark eldar threads are almost always so depressing to read these days. I mean I can't blame us which is why I wanted to switch factions to an army gw gives a crap about aside from marines. That said maybe this is just a gw problem but you cant leave because you dont know what the outside is like and change is scary sometimes.

@brutus: Not like scourge weren't already having a hard time being relevant with a suicide anti tank unit that dies in a turn and doesn't do enough to be valuable.

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

Same. Kinda. Like, it looks like we're getting a bit of a power boost, so that's nice (although I'm not fond of the arms race in general.) But it seems like GW may not have understood some of the perceived issues with the faction very well. We're still jumping through hoops to use our full codex. Power From Pain is still the weird "charging my pain batteries" thing that has never felt satisfying compared to the 5th edition pain token version.

I get the impression the codex will be fine, and I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring. Maybe all the inspiring rules will be in the Crusade section. Kind of feels like they just removed a handful of drawbacks (like having to mix up your drug selection), made a bunch of weapons D2, and called it a day.

Also, and this is extremely nitpicky and specific to me, I'm worried someone missed the point of my beloved Poisoned Tongue kabal again. Just because "poison" is in the name doesn't mean that splinter weapons was the draw to the faction. The appeal for me was always Malys, her cunning, and her connections to harlequins. This chapter tactic seems better than the last one (which was just a worse version of Flayed Skull), but thinking that their name derives from literal poison rather than the power of intellect feels like they're missing the point. Here's hoping they don't give the "smart guy" warlord trait to Black Heart again. Here's doubly-hoping they don't give us the unwanted Leadership aura from the index archon as our warlord trait again. PT should be the Alpha Legion of drukhari. Instead, we're just the most poisony poison guys of the poison gun faction. Maybe. I'm overreacting before seeing most of the rules.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

Same. Kinda. Like, it looks like we're getting a bit of a power boost, so that's nice (although I'm not fond of the arms race in general.) But it seems like GW may not have understood some of the perceived issues with the faction very well. We're still jumping through hoops to use our full codex. Power From Pain is still the weird "charging my pain batteries" thing that has never felt satisfying compared to the 5th edition pain token version.

I get the impression the codex will be fine, and I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring. Maybe all the inspiring rules will be in the Crusade section. Kind of feels like they just removed a handful of drawbacks (like having to mix up your drug selection), made a bunch of weapons D2, and called it a day.

Also, and this is extremely nitpicky and specific to me, I'm worried someone missed the point of my beloved Poisoned Tongue kabal again. Just because "poison" is in the name doesn't mean that splinter weapons was the draw to the faction. The appeal for me was always Malys, her cunning, and her connections to harlequins. This chapter tactic seems better than the last one (which was just a worse version of Flayed Skull), but thinking that their name derives from literal poison rather than the power of intellect feels like they're missing the point. Here's hoping they don't give the "smart guy" warlord trait to Black Heart again. Here's doubly-hoping they don't give us the unwanted Leadership aura from the index archon as our warlord trait again. PT should be the Alpha Legion of drukhari. Instead, we're just the most poisony poison guys of the poison gun faction. Maybe. I'm overreacting before seeing most of the rules.

I feel thats a general problem and also reflected in the master archon trait. Everything has to be about "fighting power". A Master Archon is a Drukhari Lord that survived all the intrigues and assassination attempts for a surprisingly long time and in return he gets to fight twice a game and his weapons become more deadly? Why not give him something that reflects this smart cunning-ness like labyrinthian cunning? You dont survive in Comorragh by fighting fair, its all about plans, ploys, etc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

If they really do this, it will show beyond doubt whoever makes these books has not two brain cells to rub together as that would make the unit rubbish supreme.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If they really do this, it will show beyond doubt whoever makes these books has not two brain cells to rub together as that would make the unit rubbish supreme.

That's why this is the most interesting Codex release for me for quite some time.

Do we get a proper weapon list that allows people to arm their squads as they see fit, or do they signal that 9th Edition has completely lost the plot and that the nonsense that began with Death Guard will follow every army going forward (except Marines, obviously, because They Shall Know No Inconvenient Rules, and they mostly escaped it before the madness took hold)?

On this, I hope for sanity to maintain, if it doesn't I dread each book after it to see what wargear butchery they will perform in other books.

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

You can easily fit 120 poxwalkers and cultists into the army by using termies. My current list has 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus and a cadre of Terminators. So these "restrictions" will be at best edge cases.

Only people who will complain about the wargear restrictions are the people who already invested into making those units and I wouldn't be surprised if they are a minority. Hell, I didn't even bother creating those squads in 8th. Plus a lot of people will adapt. I spent a lot of time making Trueborns in the old day with Splinter Cannons and Blasters, but then that all changed and I adjusted. My guess is most people will.

So my take is that a small minority will get absolutely annoyed by these. I mean, the key to failure is trying to please everybody as it is impossible to please everybody. If you could take poxwalkers and cultists willy nilly then their opponents would complain and so goes the cycle of complaint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

We'll see how it turns out. Although I am afraid Scourges are going to be included in every value pack from now on.

 Eldarsif wrote:

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

You can easily fit 120 poxwalkers and cultists into the army by using termies. My current list has 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus and a cadre of Terminators. So these "restrictions" will be at best edge cases.

Only people who will complain about the wargear restrictions are the people who already invested into making those units and I wouldn't be surprised if they are a minority. Hell, I didn't even bother creating those squads in 8th. Plus a lot of people will adapt. I spent a lot of time making Trueborns in the old day with Splinter Cannons and Blasters, but then that all changed and I adjusted. My guess is most people will.

So my take is that a small minority will get absolutely annoyed by these. I mean, the key to failure is trying to please everybody as it is impossible to please everybody. If you could take poxwalkers and cultists willy nilly then their opponents would complain and so goes the cycle of complaint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

We'll see how it turns out. Although I am afraid Scourges are going to be included in every value pack from now on.

scourges from what i remember have always been one of the best unit in the book, lets hope it remains so, i really love the models and the design