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2021/02/16 01:34:27
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
So what value is the rule itself, if players already had this choice? Isn’t having a nice painted army the reward itself for the hobby?
Daedalus81 wrote: 10 pages in one day. This topic isn't divisive at all!
Its the live wire of 40k - social interaction.
I don't see myself ever having a problem because either I'm playing with friends, in which case who wins really doesn't matter, so winning cos "haha I've got painted models" can just be laughed off. Or its a tournament where there will be rules.
So to my mind the whole thing comes across as
*Western Whistle Plays*
"You there. I challenge you to the greatest and most manly test there is. That's right, 40k."
*3 hours later* "Ha! I win by 5 points. Read'em and weep pal."
"Ah, you think you've won? You didn't paint those 10 grots there. Whereas my army is fully painted. So in fact I win by 5 points. Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHAHA!"
"No. No. I've lost.. a game of 40k? My pride. My ego. My identity. How will I go on..."
To me it’s a rule that directly relates to my disability and draws attention to pain I Feel all the time. I don’t get the 10 points and are playing with a disadvantage because of factors I cannot control in a hobby I play in a large part to try and keep my mind away from that.
This post honestly just comes off like you don’t really think that far about how others are affected by rules even after all the discussion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 01:43:12
2021/02/16 01:48:32
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
So what value is the rule itself, if players already had this choice? Isn’t having a nice painted army the reward itself for the hobby?
Daedalus81 wrote: 10 pages in one day. This topic isn't divisive at all!
Its the live wire of 40k - social interaction.
I don't see myself ever having a problem because either I'm playing with friends, in which case who wins really doesn't matter, so winning cos "haha I've got painted models" can just be laughed off. Or its a tournament where there will be rules.
So to my mind the whole thing comes across as
*Western Whistle Plays*
"You there. I challenge you to the greatest and most manly test there is. That's right, 40k."
*3 hours later* "Ha! I win by 5 points. Read'em and weep pal."
"Ah, you think you've won? You didn't paint those 10 grots there. Whereas my army is fully painted. So in fact I win by 5 points. Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHAHA!"
"No. No. I've lost.. a game of 40k? My pride. My ego. My identity. How will I go on..."
To me it’s a rule that directly relates to my disability and draws attention to pain I Feel all the time. I don’t get the 10 points and are playing with a disadvantage because of factors I cannot control in a hobby I play in a large part to try and keep my mind away from that.
This post honestly just comes off like you don’t really think that far about how others are affected by rules even after all the discussion.
How do you build your models?
2021/02/16 01:54:26
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
You realise that this is irrelevant. It comes across very much as a leading statement where you attempt to explain to someone else how their disability does and doesn't work.
My argument remains unchanged and I will also flip the premise.
If people who care about their painting affecting the outcome but ALSO are very pro 'decide your own rules at the beginning of the match' then you wouldn't have any problem with GW removing this rule and you imposing it on your opponent yourself?
Or is it perhaps the 'official' GW stick the only thing allowing you to do this?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 01:54:52
Beardedragon wrote: I didnt know there had been a long discussion about it before i made mine, and i didnt bother using the search engine
And thus, we have 11 pages of utterly ineffectual screeching about how other people enjoy their free time in the wrong way again. Lessons to be learned, perhaps?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 01:59:04
2021/02/16 01:56:41
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Voss wrote: Wow. 'Strip 40k' isn't the worst thing I've ever seen result from a 'slippery slope' argument, but its definitely up there on the weirdness scale.
Though tying stripping and painting to an evaluation of 'sanity' is a bit much.
As a hypothetical bad rule it works just fine. I mean, they weren't suggesting that it was possible, just that if it somehow did, that almost no one would use it.
What works fine is people just accepting that its liked and disliked by different people. For all the pages of back and forth (again) and bad logic everywhere (especially 10 != 10), nothing has changed.
The only time its going to matter is if someone actually on the other side of a physical table is severely passionate about it (in one way or the other). Here its just an internet debate attracting flies.
Sure. But then, the bad logic coming from the gatekeepers should be opposed so casual readers don't think it's the only way to do things. And let me know if you like paying 10% more on things. 10% is a lot.
Bad logic should be opposed no matter who its coming from. Regardless of 'casual readers' and what they might by thinking.
And regardless of which side your hypothetical gatekeepers might be on. I see them on both sides.
Both sides is often a terrible argument. This conversation isn't any different.
Both sides isn't an argument. Its an observation about behavior.
And you're exactly right. This conversation _isn't_ any different. That's literally the point.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/02/16 01:57:02
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
You realise that this is irrelevant. It comes across very much as a leading statement where you attempt to explain to someone else how their disability does and doesn't work.
My argument remains unchanged and I will also flip the premise.
If people who care about their painting affecting the outcome but ALSO are very pro 'decide your own rules at the beginning of the match' then you wouldn't have any problem with GW removing this rule and you imposing it on your opponent yourself?
Or is it perhaps the 'official' GW stick the only thing allowing you to do this?
Don’t get offended for someone else it’s a legit question! Had nothing to do with painting I’m just curious about if it takes extra time and energy don’t white knight right off the bat......
2021/02/16 01:59:14
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Voss wrote: Wow. 'Strip 40k' isn't the worst thing I've ever seen result from a 'slippery slope' argument, but its definitely up there on the weirdness scale.
Though tying stripping and painting to an evaluation of 'sanity' is a bit much.
As a hypothetical bad rule it works just fine. I mean, they weren't suggesting that it was possible, just that if it somehow did, that almost no one would use it.
What works fine is people just accepting that its liked and disliked by different people. For all the pages of back and forth (again) and bad logic everywhere (especially 10 != 10), nothing has changed.
The only time its going to matter is if someone actually on the other side of a physical table is severely passionate about it (in one way or the other). Here its just an internet debate attracting flies.
Sure. But then, the bad logic coming from the gatekeepers should be opposed so casual readers don't think it's the only way to do things. And let me know if you like paying 10% more on things. 10% is a lot.
Bad logic should be opposed no matter who its coming from. Regardless of 'casual readers' and what they might by thinking.
And regardless of which side your hypothetical gatekeepers might be on. I see them on both sides.
Both sides is often a terrible argument. This conversation isn't any different.
Both sides isn't an argument. Its an observation about behavior.
And you're exactly right. This conversation _isn't_ any different. That's literally the point.
[/spoiler]
Good to know you only read one side of the conversation.
2021/02/16 02:09:55
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
So what value is the rule itself, if players already had this choice? Isn’t having a nice painted army the reward itself for the hobby?
Daedalus81 wrote: 10 pages in one day. This topic isn't divisive at all!
Its the live wire of 40k - social interaction.
I don't see myself ever having a problem because either I'm playing with friends, in which case who wins really doesn't matter, so winning cos "haha I've got painted models" can just be laughed off. Or its a tournament where there will be rules.
So to my mind the whole thing comes across as
*Western Whistle Plays*
"You there. I challenge you to the greatest and most manly test there is. That's right, 40k."
*3 hours later* "Ha! I win by 5 points. Read'em and weep pal."
"Ah, you think you've won? You didn't paint those 10 grots there. Whereas my army is fully painted. So in fact I win by 5 points. Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHAHA!"
"No. No. I've lost.. a game of 40k? My pride. My ego. My identity. How will I go on..."
To me it’s a rule that directly relates to my disability and draws attention to pain I Feel all the time. I don’t get the 10 points and are playing with a disadvantage because of factors I cannot control in a hobby I play in a large part to try and keep my mind away from that.
This post honestly just comes off like you don’t really think that far about how others are affected by rules even after all the discussion.
How do you build your models?
I have limited ability, I have to pick and choose my daily activity’s to an extreme degree, overdoing it one day could mean days of recovery. But this is where this rule leaves me, with strangers at shops it leaves me having to explane issues, or sit sad with a disadvantage for my difficulty’s. It’s very much ruining the hobby for me at this point.
Building miniatures can also be done way faster than painting and assistance for this leaves a lot less variance in the end than painting and personal style does.
2021/02/16 02:10:24
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
"Wanna play a game?" "Sure. I only have 500 points fully painted, so how about a Combat Patrol Game?" "I'd rather play a bigger game. You can use some of your unpainted models." "I don't really like playing down due to unpainted models." "Don't worry about it. We can ignore that rule. Do you have enough models for a 1000 point Incursion Game?
I am pretty sure this is how 90% of my games being arranged are like.. (except the 10VP thing. Literally nobody cares to mention it) Out int eh real world. Where you just talk to people
I am impressed we made it to page 11... Anyone taking bets ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 02:10:56
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
You realise that this is irrelevant. It comes across very much as a leading statement where you attempt to explain to someone else how their disability does and doesn't work.
But there's nothing really wrong with that if someone has brought up their disability on their own as a reason why an accommodation should be made (in this case, the accommodation is that the rule shouldn't exist at all). I realize this goes against modern PC orthodoxy, where as soon as someone utters the big "D" word it's supposed to end every discussion immediately in that person's favor, but I don't think anyone actually believes in that when they really think about it.
Now, that said, people usually have a good answer for "why can you do X but not Y?" because, well, they're the ones living with the disability. So most of the time when you ask this sort of question you're not going to be winning any arguments by doing it. But there's nothing inherently invalid about it, and occasionally people do claim their disability prevents them from doing something it actually doesn't, or don't realize that their disability doesn't actually prevent them from doing something they thought it does, or even use their disabled status in bad faith. Which to be clear, I'm not for a minute saying is the case here. Just that I don't think someone bringing up disability should be an automatic argument-ender.
I have limited ability, I have to pick and choose my daily activity’s to an extreme degree, overdoing it one day could mean days of recovery. But this is where this rule leaves me, with strangers at shops it leaves me having to explane issues, or sit sad with a disadvantage for my difficulty’s. It’s very much ruining the hobby for me at this point.
Building miniatures can also be done way faster than painting and assistance for this leaves a lot less variance in the end than painting and personal style does.
Totally honest question, not a gotcha at all:
Has this situation - playing with someone and having trouble on account of the rule - ever actually come up in real life? I mean the way you've written, it sounds like it does. I just want to confirm. This isn't a theoretical thing - you have actually had it happen that someone assert that they're entitled to the 10 points because you don't have a fully painted army? Not as in a "how do you want to handle the 10VP painting rule?" but as in a "aha, I see your army isn't fully painted, so I'll be starting 10 points up, sucka!?"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 02:20:31
2021/02/16 02:19:05
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
So what value is the rule itself, if players already had this choice? Isn’t having a nice painted army the reward itself for the hobby?
Daedalus81 wrote: 10 pages in one day. This topic isn't divisive at all!
Its the live wire of 40k - social interaction.
I don't see myself ever having a problem because either I'm playing with friends, in which case who wins really doesn't matter, so winning cos "haha I've got painted models" can just be laughed off. Or its a tournament where there will be rules.
So to my mind the whole thing comes across as *Western Whistle Plays* "You there. I challenge you to the greatest and most manly test there is. That's right, 40k." *3 hours later* "Ha! I win by 5 points. Read'em and weep pal." "Ah, you think you've won? You didn't paint those 10 grots there. Whereas my army is fully painted. So in fact I win by 5 points. Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHAHA!" "No. No. I've lost.. a game of 40k? My pride. My ego. My identity. How will I go on..."
To me it’s a rule that directly relates to my disability and draws attention to pain I Feel all the time. I don’t get the 10 points and are playing with a disadvantage because of factors I cannot control in a hobby I play in a large part to try and keep my mind away from that. This post honestly just comes off like you don’t really think that far about how others are affected by rules even after all the discussion.
How do you build your models?
I have limited ability, I have to pick and choose my daily activity’s to an extreme degree, overdoing it one day could mean days of recovery. But this is where this rule leaves me, with strangers at shops it leaves me having to explane issues, or sit sad with a disadvantage for my difficulty’s. It’s very much ruining the hobby for me at this point.
Building miniatures can also be done way faster than painting and assistance for this leaves a lot less variance in the end than painting and personal style does.
Yeah against this person I wouldn’t complain about 10 points. Pretty good and decent reason here. Also quoted way more than I meant to to lazy to change that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 02:35:23
2021/02/16 02:28:55
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
You realise that this is irrelevant. It comes across very much as a leading statement where you attempt to explain to someone else how their disability does and doesn't work.
But there's nothing really wrong with that if someone has brought up their disability on their own as a reason why an accommodation should be made (in this case, the accommodation is that the rule shouldn't exist at all). I realize this goes against modern PC orthodoxy, where as soon as someone utters the big "D" word it's supposed to end every discussion immediately in that person's favor, but I don't think anyone actually believes in that when they really think about it.
Now, that said, people usually have a good answer for "why can you do X but not Y?" because, well, they're the ones living with the disability. So most of the time when you ask this sort of question you're not going to be winning any arguments by doing it. But there's nothing inherently invalid about it, and occasionally people do claim their disability prevents them from doing something it actually doesn't, or don't realize that their disability doesn't actually prevent them from doing something they thought it does, or even use their disabled status in bad faith. Which to be clear, I'm not for a minute saying is the case here. Just that I don't think someone bringing up disability should be an automatic argument-ender.
I have limited ability, I have to pick and choose my daily activity’s to an extreme degree, overdoing it one day could mean days of recovery. But this is where this rule leaves me, with strangers at shops it leaves me having to explane issues, or sit sad with a disadvantage for my difficulty’s. It’s very much ruining the hobby for me at this point.
Building miniatures can also be done way faster than painting and assistance for this leaves a lot less variance in the end than painting and personal style does.
Totally honest question, not a gotcha at all:
Has this situation - playing with someone and having trouble on account of the rule - ever actually come up in real life? I mean the way you've written, it sounds like it does. I just want to confirm. This isn't a theoretical thing - you have actually had it happen that someone assert that they're entitled to the 10 points because you don't have a fully painted army? Not as in a "how do you want to handle the 10VP painting rule?" but as in a "aha, I see your army isn't fully painted, so I'll be starting 10 points up, sucka!?"
It does. Mostly unless something comes up, I try and leave it be. Say nothing, but discussion and argument does come up regularly now where before it was more fun discussion. Now it’s far more these are the rules and this how it works here. I pick and choose carefully who I will discuss it with, and most shops and game stores shouldn’t have to be the place for safety reasons as well.
I have had people relate my difficulty with walking as not impeding my ability to paint, that I am just lazy and unmotivated or refer to me as things I won’t mention over this.
Also unrelated but my chair has been moved more times since this rule than ever before at gaming stores, I can stand and walk a limited amount and I think things like this just tosses fuel on the fire for how people deal with it all.
Also reply to Stalked21 it’s cool, sometimes in text it’s hard to tell a questions intent behind it. But Hellebore is right, often a question like that leads into a a rather difficult conversations.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 02:48:23
2021/02/16 02:50:21
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Thanks for answering. Wow, that sucks. You have my sympathies, not that the sympathies of some random person on the internet are worth all that much or anything.
I don't want to speak for others, but at least for myself, I think part of the reason we may have a different point of view is that our own communities are totally different, so the rule doesn't present the same issues.
The community where I'm at is super chill generally, so I can't really imagine anyone actually getting into an argument over the 10VP for the painting rules in the first place, but beyond that, they are also super tuned in to accessibility issues.
One of the things I enjoy most about the hobby is how friendly and inclusive people are, and I'm genuinely sorry that isn't the case for you.
2021/02/16 02:51:30
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
No, I don't want people to get an arbitrary in game reward for painting their models. For a very long list of reasons I don't feel the need to repeat.
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
Shouldn't the reward be having kick-ass models you painted yourself?
Do you really care about 10 points that anyone can get if they spray their models and slap three random colors on there?
here here!
But I'm being rewarded for doing the work, you could also get the 10 vp if you wanted. You choosing to not have 10 vp by not painting is nobody else's problem. Your army would also look good. You are in no way forced to spend your time any way you don't want to; you're not playing us evil painters and you're not playing in tourneys so there's really no need to get rid of the rule. The worst fate you suffer is a "technical" loss in a casual game, it has no material effect on you.
If you physically can't paint that's a shame but it doesn't become a bad rule because there are some exceptions.
2021/02/16 02:55:33
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
It's a bad rule regardless, because it encourages shoddy painting jobs instead of taking your time to do a better job. If they were trying to encourage people to take the painting side of the hobby seriously, they failed pretty hard.
I mean as someone who really prefers to play against painted armies...I can tell you I'd much rather play someone who has a beautiful army that's half-finished than someone who dumped their minis in a gallon can of red paint, then a gallon can of wash, then splashed on some white and black in a couple spots and called it a day.
2021/02/16 03:03:54
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
yukishiro1 wrote: Thanks for answering. Wow, that sucks. You have my sympathies, not that the sympathies of some random person on the internet are worth all that much or anything.
I don't want to speak for others, but at least for myself, I think part of the reason we may have a different point of view is that our own communities are totally different, so the rule doesn't present the same issues.
The community where I'm at is super chill generally, so I can't really imagine anyone actually getting into an argument over the 10VP for the painting rules in the first place, but beyond that, they are also super tuned in to accessibility issues.
One of the things I enjoy most about the hobby is how friendly and inclusive people are, and I'm genuinely sorry that isn't the case for you.
Sadly one person can ruin entire groups, and nerd groups tend to be fairly forgiving to people like that if they are not really aware. It’s why I bring up the Age of sigmar rules, plenty of people could laugh about it as good fun. But if you fell out of that it was mostly just awkward conversations to start off the game.
I also think it has done little for getting painted models, at first we just see a lot of army’s that looked half done. And now in my fav place to play the rule has been entirely dropped with even tournaments going back to the old painting rules.
2021/02/16 03:04:26
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a bad rule regardless, because it encourages shoddy painting jobs instead of taking your time to do a better job. If they were trying to encourage people to take the painting side of the hobby seriously, they failed pretty hard.
I mean as someone who really prefers to play against painted armies...I can tell you I'd much rather play someone who has a beautiful army that's half-finished than someone who dumped their minis in a gallon can of red paint, then a gallon can of wash, then splashed on some white and black in a couple spots and called it a day.
This doesn't make sense, would somebody who really cares just ruin their expensive models and "call it a day" over 10 vp? Not only that, a basic paint job is trivial with everything available now. You have washes, shades, contrasts, airbrushes, and every color of spray paint. It's not hard; if you still can't do it and you can't reconcile the 10vp maybe you're in the wrong hobby.
You can also just get it painted by somebody else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 03:05:24
2021/02/16 03:07:38
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
No, I don't want people to get an arbitrary in game reward for painting their models. For a very long list of reasons I don't feel the need to repeat.
Mmmpi wrote: I mean, what you're saying was from page 1. Most of the rest is about the moral implication of forcing other players to follow a single way to enjoy the game aspect of the hobbies, as well as the idea that people don't need a rule to motivate them to paint, nor that they should be punished for not doing the steps in order.
Nobody is forced to do anything; you don't have to paint, I don't have to play your grey army, and you don't have to play me. You just don't want people to get any reward for painting their models.
Shouldn't the reward be having kick-ass models you painted yourself?
Do you really care about 10 points that anyone can get if they spray their models and slap three random colors on there?
here here!
But I'm being rewarded for doing the work, you could also get the 10 vp if you wanted. You choosing to not have 10 vp by not painting is nobody else's problem. Your army would also look good. You are in no way forced to spend your time any way you don't want to; you're not playing us evil painters and you're not playing in tourneys so there's really no need to get rid of the rule. The worst fate you suffer is a "technical" loss in a casual game, it has no material effect on you.
If you physically can't paint that's a shame but it doesn't become a bad rule because there are some exceptions.
[/spoiler]
I can easily get the 10 points. I chose not to use a rule that only serves to make the game *even more* divisive than it already is. If you really don't like playing unpainted armies, no one is making you. But if you spent so much time painting that you just suck at the game, well, I don't feel the need to give you a crutch.
The rule is terrible. It punishes people for not following a strict outlook on a hobby pushed by elitists donkey ditches like yourself. There are two types of people supporting the rule. 1. It's a bad rule, but a rule. 2. It's the greatest thing ever, and now I can make people do the warhammer thing like I want them to.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a bad rule regardless, because it encourages shoddy painting jobs instead of taking your time to do a better job. If they were trying to encourage people to take the painting side of the hobby seriously, they failed pretty hard.
I mean as someone who really prefers to play against painted armies...I can tell you I'd much rather play someone who has a beautiful army that's half-finished than someone who dumped their minis in a gallon can of red paint, then a gallon can of wash, then splashed on some white and black in a couple spots and called it a day.
This doesn't make sense, would somebody who really cares just ruin their expensive models and "call it a day" over 10 vp? Not only that, a basic paint job is trivial with everything available now. You have washes, shades, contrasts, airbrushes, and every color of spray paint. It's not hard; if you still can't do it and you can't reconcile the 10vp maybe you're in the wrong hobby.
You can also just get it painted by somebody else.
Yes. There are people who would do that. There are also people who would pressure others into doing that, both out of misguided attempts to help, and out of maliciousness.
NOT EVERYONE FINDS A BASIC PAINT JOB TRIVIAL.
Why should they have to reconcile 10 VP? It's not their fault the person on the other side of the table is a jerk.
And no. It's been discussed why hiring someone isn't a valid alternative for many people.
I suggest you go back and reread the thread before you start on things that have already been discussed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 03:12:05
2021/02/16 03:21:28
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
"Wanna play a game?"
"Sure. I only have 500 points fully painted, so how about a Combat Patrol Game?"
"I'd rather play a bigger game. You can use some of your unpainted models."
"I don't really like playing down due to unpainted models."
"Don't worry about it. We can ignore that rule. Do you have enough models for a 1000 point Incursion Game?
I am pretty sure this is how 90% of my games being arranged are like.. (except the 10VP thing. Literally nobody cares to mention it)
Out int eh real world. Where you just talk to people
I am impressed we made it to page 11... Anyone taking bets ?
If you have to keep houseruling and making exceptions, it's a badly done rule to begin with. How are you people not getting this?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2021/02/16 03:26:06
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
"Wanna play a game?"
"Sure. I only have 500 points fully painted, so how about a Combat Patrol Game?"
"I'd rather play a bigger game. You can use some of your unpainted models."
"I don't really like playing down due to unpainted models."
"Don't worry about it. We can ignore that rule. Do you have enough models for a 1000 point Incursion Game?
I am pretty sure this is how 90% of my games being arranged are like.. (except the 10VP thing. Literally nobody cares to mention it)
Out int eh real world. Where you just talk to people
I am impressed we made it to page 11... Anyone taking bets ?
If you have to keep houseruling and making exceptions, it's a badly done rule to begin with. How are you people not getting this?
nobody is saying it isn't a bad rule. But it's still a rule. Which means unless you explicitly agree to not enforce it it is in effect whether you like it or not. The example above explicitly says to ignore that rule.
It is 100% a garbage rule. But there it is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 03:28:34
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2021/02/16 03:30:38
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a bad rule regardless, because it encourages shoddy painting jobs instead of taking your time to do a better job. If they were trying to encourage people to take the painting side of the hobby seriously, they failed pretty hard.
I mean as someone who really prefers to play against painted armies...I can tell you I'd much rather play someone who has a beautiful army that's half-finished than someone who dumped their minis in a gallon can of red paint, then a gallon can of wash, then splashed on some white and black in a couple spots and called it a day.
This doesn't make sense, would somebody who really cares just ruin their expensive models and "call it a day" over 10 vp? Not only that, a basic paint job is trivial with everything available now. You have washes, shades, contrasts, airbrushes, and every color of spray paint. It's not hard; if you still can't do it and you can't reconcile the 10vp maybe you're in the wrong hobby.
You can also just get it painted by somebody else.
I don't think you can have it both ways. Either the rule has an effect on behavior, or it doesn't. If it does have an effect, the effect it has is to encourage people to do a quick and dirty job on all their models to get the VP, rather than a better, slower job with better end results by taking their time unit by unit and model by model. If it doesn't, it doesn't do anything, and therefore has no purpose. You can't really act like the 10VP both is and is not significant.
More generally, I want people to paint their models because they have discovered the joys of doing so, not out of resentment because they feel like they have to or they'll be punished. I don't think that kind of negative reinforcement is a particularly good way to help people discover the joys of painting. If the only way GW can think of to get people into painting is to twist their arm into it by putting in rules that punish people for not doing it, they need to go back to the drawing board and find a better approach.
It's sad too because there is such a wealth of resources out there to help people paint that GW could lend its profile to and reach a lot of people who currently don't paint. But instead of doing that, they just slap on a sloppily-thought-out rule and call it a day. It's poor, there's no two ways about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 04:11:48
2021/02/16 04:09:25
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
"Wanna play a game?"
"Sure. I only have 500 points fully painted, so how about a Combat Patrol Game?"
"I'd rather play a bigger game. You can use some of your unpainted models."
"I don't really like playing down due to unpainted models."
"Don't worry about it. We can ignore that rule. Do you have enough models for a 1000 point Incursion Game?
I am pretty sure this is how 90% of my games being arranged are like.. (except the 10VP thing. Literally nobody cares to mention it)
Out int eh real world. Where you just talk to people
I am impressed we made it to page 11... Anyone taking bets ?
If you have to keep houseruling and making exceptions, it's a badly done rule to begin with. How are you people not getting this?
nobody is saying it isn't a bad rule. But it's still a rule. Which means unless you explicitly agree to not enforce it it is in effect whether you like it or not. The example above explicitly says to ignore that rule.
It is 100% a garbage rule. But there it is.
I'm saying it's a good rule for me, at least. I've played miniature games since 2005, and I've almost always had partially painted armies when there isn't a strict painting requirement. The rule is motivationally useful for me to get over that hump and finish painting the last elements of the lists I use. That, in turn, helps increase the enjoyment of the people I play against that would like to play against painted armies. At the same time, the rule doesn't prohibit me from playing with unpainted models I haven't gotten to yet, so I'll be able to play the unpainted list build I'm excited about when I am more enthused about that. This rule is designed for my case, I think.
That doesn't mean that I think the rule is perfect for all of the players of this game, but I do think it contributes more towards making the game better than making the game worse.
2021/02/16 04:30:05
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Just imagine what they cut, those rules are like they didn’t really know what humans are. But they did also cause army’s to be burned and people still laugh at how bad GW can make rules because of them.
From the interview it sounds like the writers had some really good ideas as well that got trashed for them. So I think it’s the same energy, Someone in management likes it sells paint.
2021/02/16 04:33:26
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Everyone knows what the rules of the game are. If you don’t like the rules? Then either agree to not play with them or find another game.
It really is sad how unwilling people are to have a conversation and someone playing by the rules is considered a bad person.
Tournaments will have scoring set out in advance, you knew that before showing up so that is a decision you made.
Casual games? Who cares if you win or lose based on a 10 point non-game swing? You still won the game, but they won the overall score. Again, who cares.
Honestly, it has gotten me to paint more over time instead of the bum rush for a tournament that I used to do which I ended up stripping afterwards because it looked awful.
Minis look way better now and it’s actually nice to have models that look good,
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Eldar- 4436 pts
it’s cool, sometimes in text it’s hard to tell a questions intent behind it. But Hellebore is right, often a question like that leads into a a rather difficult conversations.
