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Just because the Rules say that Mordians are good at drills or Steel Legion are good at mechanised warfare, doesn't mean your regiment isn't. Just use those rules. You have the doctrines there already they just use well-known names so new players can know the difference and so GW isn't making boring generic miniatures and can put more copyrights on things they want so they can make more money. Your regiment uses loads of Chimeras but wears Cadian gear? Cool, use the Steel Legion rules. Do they wear parade uniforms but are excellent at ambush warfare? Cool, use Tallarn rules. Nobody cares what rules you use in combination with models, give a lore excuse and play the game. I use what is essentially a horde of chaos cultists but switch Regimental Doctrines depending on what I want to use and I've yet to have a complaint. This whole argument of basing the army off of doctrine, not regiment doesn't matter because unless you're doing a competitive tournament with a Catachan army and saying they're Mordian, who cares what your models look like?
40k is a miniature wargame, use your human-sized models to represent whatever tactics you want.

 Gert wrote:
Just because the Rules say that Mordians are good at drills or Steel Legion are good at mechanised warfare, doesn't mean your regiment isn't. Just use those rules. You have the doctrines there already they just use well-known names so new players can know the difference and so GW isn't making boring generic miniatures and can put more copyrights on things they want so they can make more money. Your regiment uses loads of Chimeras but wears Cadian gear? Cool, use the Steel Legion rules. Do they wear parade uniforms but are excellent at ambush warfare? Cool, use Tallarn rules. Nobody cares what rules you use in combination with models, give a lore excuse and play the game. I use what is essentially a horde of chaos cultists but switch Regimental Doctrines depending on what I want to use and I've yet to have a complaint. This whole argument of basing the army off of doctrine, not regiment doesn't matter because unless you're doing a competitive tournament with a Catachan army and saying they're Mordian, who cares what your models look like?
40k is a miniature wargame, use your human-sized models to represent whatever tactics you want.

I'm well aware of that, and my own guard is a mishmash of very basic kit bashed Cadians, Steel Legion, and the old Stormtrooper models. But from a lore/fluff perspective of the army, it would be nice to be able to say "It is a Mechanized Infantry division with a dedicated Stormtrooper detachment" as opposed to say "Its Steel Legion" or "its Cadian". It also pulls away the "planet of hats" look of the lore, where even in this thread people noted that the primary tactic of Valhalla is human wave / pop culture Soviets when that was mainly Chenkov and a reference here and there.

Compare to the rpgs, namely Only War, where you could pick homeworld, standard doctrine, standard kit, etc, and the named famous regiments were given as examples with builds based on the different options. Not saying fully doable considering rpgs have far more room for customization than a war game, but being able to say "my regiment are an Ice World Airborne Regiment" comes with less baggage than saying "Valhallan". Plus it makes it sound less like there are only 4 or 5 important worlds in the Imperium.

 Gert wrote:
Just because the Rules say that Mordians are good at drills or Steel Legion are good at mechanised warfare, doesn't mean your regiment isn't. Just use those rules. You have the doctrines there already they just use well-known names so new players can know the difference and so GW isn't making boring generic miniatures and can put more copyrights on things they want so they can make more money. Your regiment uses loads of Chimeras but wears Cadian gear? Cool, use the Steel Legion rules. Do they wear parade uniforms but are excellent at ambush warfare? Cool, use Tallarn rules. Nobody cares what rules you use in combination with models, give a lore excuse and play the game. I use what is essentially a horde of chaos cultists but switch Regimental Doctrines depending on what I want to use and I've yet to have a complaint. This whole argument of basing the army off of doctrine, not regiment doesn't matter because unless you're doing a competitive tournament with a Catachan army and saying they're Mordian, who cares what your models look like?
40k is a miniature wargame, use your human-sized models to represent whatever tactics you want.

I don't think theres an argument that this is how people have been playing. I think they are pining for the old 4th? edition codex where you picked doctrines instead of regiments. Regardless of that Regiments of Renown, Chapters, etc are simply how things are done these days (they aren't going back). We still have this to some degree with the build your own regiment tool anyways.

In the best scenario I think guard should get something along the lines of a "super chapter tactics" for guard for being an all guard army that is some sort of bonus based on your 'doctrine" i.e. you choose Infantry, Artillery, Mechanized etc and that can give the baseline of what your army does on top of your regimental abilities that are more for flavor.

I think it would be cool to have a close combat unit for guard that builds on the fact that they are mostly expendable chaff and builds from there. I was thinking a combat unit with something like taser pikes (billhooks) - some techno late-medieval equivalent - mixed with power mauls and or axes. The idea being that the polearms/pikes are used to knock down or pin powerful enemy creatures (think a tyranid warrior, perhaps an ork/nob/etc) then the guys/gals with the mauls and axes finish the job.

Once again, just look to WGA for what you could for Guard.

So long as we're talking entirely new kits, I'd second getting some proper light armor (some form of armored car would be great) or an Imperial Trukk (ie. barebones battle taxi with heavy stubbers as the main weapon, mostly so I can live the LRDG dream but also so we can have a transport that's focused on just being a transport and can be costed appropriately).

I would love them to return to the regimental doctrine system, but I know it won't happen.
So in the reasonable wish-listing I'd like them to expand upon Veterans and Conscripts, and expanding the order system into something more interesting.
At the moment it's just another way of giving buffs/rerolls, which used to be fairly unique but is now just par for the course.
Give us Command Chimeras, maybe a vox network mechanic, etc.

Controversial... I would like the return of platoons for troops choices, something not many people would agree with I'm sure

I'm kind of neutral on platoons.
I can see the appeal, but I don't really see any need. They don't really fit with the current detachment/data sheet theme imo.

They do, 1 lieutenant and 2x squads minimum up to 5 (or 6, can't remember) per troops choice. For every 2x squads you can then include a heavy or special weapon squad etc without taking up a detachment choice, for every platoon you unlock an armoured fist squad or veteran squad that will take up another troop slot etc.

I always just liked it as it forced a base amount of infantry and some structure to the guard. Again, I'm sure many would dislike that return but well, if any faction needs overbearing organisation forced upon it, it's the guard.

Really though, truly... 3 different boxes of infantry (with corresponding command, special and heavy weapon squads), that can make at least 2-3 different regiments each via head, weapon and maybe arm/torso swap in extreme cases, and generic upgrade sprues for veterens. You then have 6-9 different regiment aesthetic styles, everything else can be fulfilled within rules and doctrines to add flavour to the guard then, no need for jump packs etc... All the flavour right there.

*Long coat style, that can fulfil DKoK, Valhalla etc
*Standard shortcoat/flak armour design, this could be the most varied and realistically could fulfil cadian, mordian, praetorian, tallarn even, maybe elysian drop troops etc... Obviously with the amount of different heads required, some of this should be fulfilled with separate upgrade sprues but you get the point. Even steel legion if done correctly (long booted legs being the major design change, though I suppose the same is needed for mordian and praetorian anyway)
*Light infantry, fulfil catachan and tanith style. i.e. cloaks, helmets and covered arms, or not.

Then the nature of the components in the box would allow for diverse self-created regiments.

Some redesign of the regiments should be expected and most likely required to fulfil the above, but as long as the flavour is right it would be all good and it fulfils everyones needs.

Totally agree with you on the infantry redesign ideas you've had. I'd rather have all the basic regiments with slight design changes in plastic than 2 outdated plastic kits, 1 metal, and none for the rest.

A box with ten figures that offered some variation in Regimental dress would be awesome. I am not sure if GW sees much there, though, as they have likely figured out that 3rd parties would parasite. We can dream though!

I have to say that I found the Platoon as a Troops Choice a negative design feature from 3rd until the 8th Ed reboot. At low points levels you ended up with three Command Squads and four Infantry Squads. Kinda defeated the purpose. The 2nd Edition method worked just fine.

Heck, a Patrol Detachment is a Platoon if you call the Captain a Lieutenant. The Battalion Detachment works just fine as a "Company." I'd like to see Heavy Weapons Squads either freed from the rule of 3 or linked to Infantry Squads in number.

I think the whole 3rd party argument is a difficult one because loads of companies already make not-40k-Guard. Anvil Industries and Victoria Minis are well known for their work and GW definitely knows about them because they all go to trade shows. For example:

Victoria Miniatures Tannenburg Fusilier

Games Workshop Mordian


There's only so much GW can copyright and uniforms based on historical/modern equivalents are probably not on that list, which is why we don't hear about GW going after Anvil and Victoria like they did Chapter House in the past.

 Gert wrote:
I think the whole 3rd party argument is a difficult one because loads of companies already make not-40k-Guard. Anvil Industries and Victoria Minis are well known for their work and GW definitely knows about them because they all go to trade shows. For example:

Victoria Miniatures Tannenburg Fusilier

Spoiler:

Games Workshop Mordian

Spoiler:

There's only so much GW can copyright and uniforms based on historical/modern equivalents are probably not on that list, which is why we don't hear about GW going after Anvil and Victoria like they did Chapter House in the past.

The major problem GW is facing is that they are NOT releasing these kits right now. Victoria and Anvil are making a superior product at a similar price point to what they are offering now. GW might consider themselves so far behind the curve that they have given up instead of trying to tackle the problem. Besides how can people consider them to be parasites when they are making a product GW doesn't even bother with anymore!

As for the platoon argument....I think it would be a great way to clean up the guard rules and really make them work better in lieu of new kits. IE You keep it at LT x 1 and IS x2 as the base (maybe command squads but that may become clunky) and it unlocks a few free heavy weapon team and special weapon team slots. This would free up your Heavy support slots for tanks and fun things. As it stands now Guard is an army that has to take multiple detachments in order to field anything close to successful and they are being punished in the CP department for the sins of the Loyal 32. It would be even cooler if orders worked down from the LT into his own platoon or they got a bonus for getting orders from their corresponding LT. I also think it would be reasonable for a SM Captain style restriction on Company commanders if they force you to take lots of LTs. This would also mean that moving Veterans back into troops would make sense because you are paying more for troops that do not come with the perks of free slots.

"Superior product" is debatable.

Platoon was a horrible rule and good frigging riddance to it.

My use of "parasite" was, perhaps, uncharitable. My point was that GW may see little point in refreshing those 2nd Ed Regimental lines as they know that others can do so. Do they give mold design time to a line that 3rd parties are filling or something that they have more control over? I don't want to derail this thread with a Chapterhouse discussion! I am just trying to think realistically. The plastic infantry really need a reboot! (or regreatcoat!)

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My use of "parasite" was, perhaps, uncharitable. My point was that GW may see little point in refreshing those 2nd Ed Regimental lines as they know that others can do so. Do they give mold design time to a line that 3rd parties are filling or something that they have more control over? I don't want to derail this thread with a Chapterhouse discussion! I am just trying to think realistically. The plastic infantry really need a reboot! (or regreatcoat!)

Oh I wasn't meaning to go into that of course! I was merely pointing out that GW has not only dropped the ball on regiments they loaded it into a cannon and fired off into space at this point. We really need some sort of new infantry since the most recent was introduced 20 years ago. I have somewhere in the magnitude of 300 cadian guardsman and I am very willing to dump them for some nice greatcloak guys from GW. I also have some chinacast Valhallans and a whole mess of Anvil Valhallans to boot (I really need to get some of Vics Female Valhallans as well!).

As I've said before I would love to see a general reimagining of the line even if its slight tweaks to make it in line with whats going on with Primaris Marines. A cawlification I guess you could say to modernize the look of the armor and weapons of the standard guardsman (and thusly differentiating them from the inevitable Traitor Guard release).It would make even more sense for it to be piecemeal in regiments as they are going to get the new gear as their old equipment breaks or is lost and all new regiments will be equipped with new gear. It would also allow for new types of units to be cycled in as they will represent the "new guard" vs the "old guard" that are being phased out much like the marines. This is a nice visual metaphor for progress in 40k and could set up all kinds of interesting plots with traditionalists.

 Gert wrote:
I think the whole 3rd party argument is a difficult one because loads of companies already make not-40k-Guard. Anvil Industries and Victoria Minis are well known for their work and GW definitely knows about them because they all go to trade shows. For example:

Victoria Miniatures Tannenburg Fusilier

Spoiler:

Games Workshop Mordian

Spoiler:

There's only so much GW can copyright and uniforms based on historical/modern equivalents are probably not on that list, which is why we don't hear about GW going after Anvil and Victoria like they did Chapter House in the past.

Which is why GW really could benefit from introducing one or more new regiments, that are unique and not historically based, and hit the price point just at or below the competitors; creating a protectable product, and quite possibly draw that business back into itself.

There's 'a million planets' in the Imperium, and we have what, a couple dozen or so regiments that have any amount of book/picture space? If GMan brings in a new 'Imperial Army', with new uniforms and all, that's almost a whole new range or two they could open up - without really invalidating anyones current AM collection (well maybe bits of it, but that's not new). Or the Ultramar Auxilia becomes the new standard look, instead of Cadian.

bat702 wrote:
Would be fun to see a heavier walker for imperial-guard, like go the starcraft way and make a goliath alternative

Goliath online! I should really paint it one of these days.

 Flinty wrote:

bat702 wrote:
Would be fun to see a heavier walker for imperial-guard, like go the starcraft way and make a goliath alternative

Goliath online! I should really paint it one of these days.

I love it, that's pretty damn good! Unfortunately my only issue is that walkers are an "admech thing" just like how Marines are the new "hover guys" I think Guard needs to stay in the realm of tread Tanks so that they can find their Niche so to speak. With that a new tank would be pretty great. Maybe loaded up with some new Cawl trickery

That is a cool machine!

Regarding infantry kits, if GW Community announced tomorrow that generalchaos34 was taking the lead on the new plastic Astra Militarum kit I would break my Lenten fast and raise a glass! Some very sound ideas. (Just find a way to sneak in my Recce Jeep!)

Eh..."heavy walkers" that would be bipedal feel unnecessary.

They'd be quadrupedal, maybe. The better option to wishlist for though are Rapiers.

As nice as that victoria miniatures mordian is there, it is still far off the quality and capability of modern GW, and that is their reasoning and justification to do it, they can make a superior product (with built in variation), and people will buy it.

The necromunda kits are so good that I am personally excited at the prospect of new guard plastics, I think they are certainly coming, and I'd hope by the end of 2021, but most likely 2022-2023....

Yes, FW is known for having perfectly... good...res.. HAHAHAHA

I wasn't meaning to imply that those companies were necessarily better than GW, that's all down to preference, but rather with the quality they have been putting out recently why not redo their famous regiments or make some new ones like others are suggesting. But alas, Marines must take precedence.

 Gert wrote:
I wasn't meaning to imply that those companies were necessarily better than GW, that's all down to preference, but rather with the quality they have been putting out recently why not redo their famous regiments or make some new ones like others are suggesting. But alas, Marines must take precedence.

Oh no, they are certainly superior to the old metal/resin models from way back in second edition, I'm just suggesting that GW, with their plastic tech and design capability are capable of making those miniatures look inferior. Like I said, I like them, but they are not as nice as any necromunda plastic kit, and that is where the hope for new plastic guard is.

I'm not really fussed about FW and it's standards, the only regiment I would have ever bought from there is the DKoK and well like I said, I think we will get plastic guard and GW would be absolutely CRAZY not to make DKoK one of the regiment options.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
That is a cool machine!

Regarding infantry kits, if GW Community announced tomorrow that generalchaos34 was taking the lead on the new plastic Astra Militarum kit I would break my Lenten fast and raise a glass! Some very sound ideas. (Just find a way to sneak in my Recce Jeep!)

Awwww thanks!!!! I dont know what the new design should look like per se but it should mirror the old style but with a lot cleaner look. Basically what Mark X has done to marines. Its smoother lines, less fiddly bits, and a homage to older designs, maybe even have shoulder pads! As there is no more cadia it makes little sense for there to be a reliance on Cadians or Cadia pattern and going forward you can reforge Cadians as elite regiment instead of the "oh gawd they're everywhere" regiment that they had turned into for so long. We need a new pattern that dosen't have to be tied to space russians, or space vietnam guys, or anything "generic". Honestly if they took the design elements of the euclidian start striders (long coat and armor) and blended it with better helmets it would be a pretty good look!

Please, any more Cawl crap and I'm gonna hurl.
I absolutely do not want a Guard reboot of that.

If we are talking about modernising the guard aesthetic, and say cadians started to look like this, then I'm all for it, they look badass, updated but not too far away from the source material (Though I think this may be more an elysian or kharskin, but you get the idea, this is what cadians should look like really, maybe lacking the hell gun and heavier armour):



However, in the attempt to modernise the kits, and thus the lore and we lose out on the likes of these regiments, or only get kits looking like the above then I'm not for it (Not that any of these would be made in kits but you get the idea):







I think the easy thing to say is, I'm heavily invested in the diversity of the guard and it's kits, if we end up with only modern special forces looking kinda guys (and girls, that would be nice tbh across the kits), and rules that followed that modern army kind of role, then I'm not for it.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
That is a cool machine!

Regarding infantry kits, if GW Community announced tomorrow that generalchaos34 was taking the lead on the new plastic Astra Militarum kit I would break my Lenten fast and raise a glass! Some very sound ideas. (Just find a way to sneak in my Recce Jeep!)

Awwww thanks!!!! I dont know what the new design should look like per se but it should mirror the old style but with a lot cleaner look. Basically what Mark X has done to marines. Its smoother lines, less fiddly bits, and a homage to older designs, maybe even have shoulder pads! As there is no more cadia it makes little sense for there to be a reliance on Cadians or Cadia pattern and going forward you can reforge Cadians as elite regiment instead of the "oh gawd they're everywhere" regiment that they had turned into for so long.

The epic Psychic Awakening series continues with War of the Spider. This campaign book features a host of new rules for Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Talons of the Emperor and Officio Assassinorum. It also includes background on the web that Fabius Bile spins around the devastated Cadian system as he is pursued by the Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Sisters of Silence and multiple teams of Assassins. Will they catch him, or will he escape to continue his twisted experiments?

It helps to remember that Cadia was not just a planet. It also helps to recall that there's still fighting going on there.

Additionally, Cadia was not the "they're everywhere regiment" because of Cadia existing. It's because they raised an ungodly amount of troops that they kept in fighting shape. Those regiments would settle other planets(Brimlock Dragoons, for example, are a Cadian Regiment for all intents and purposes). Their wargear was so common because again, as I said earlier:
You have entire systems devoted to churning out war material for a single system. You had entire Forge Worlds devoted to producing lasguns, ammunition, armor, etc for Cadian Regiments. The excess could go towards little podunk worlds.

We need a new pattern that dosen't have to be tied to space russians, or space vietnam guys, or anything "generic". Honestly if they took the design elements of the euclidian start striders (long coat and armor) and blended it with better helmets it would be a pretty good look!

God no. First off, they're not "longcoats". Second off...they're a Blanche design. Blanche designs do not appeal to everyone nor do they actually look good as a whole army.

His specialty is effectively one-off designs that someone else makes look better before it becomes a feasible concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If we are talking about modernising the guard aesthetic, and say cadians started to look like this, then I'm all for it, they look badass, updated but not too far away from the source material (Though I think this may be more an elysian or kharskin, but you get the idea, this is what cadians should look like really, maybe lacking the hell gun and heavier armour):

Spoiler:

However, in the attempt to modernise the kits, and thus the lore and we lose out on the likes of these regiments, or only get kits looking like the above then I'm not for it (Not that any of these would be made in kits but you get the idea):

Spoiler:

[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/4/4a/Savlar_Chem-Dog_Trooper_2.png/revision/latest?cb=201604
03224426[/img]

I think the easy thing to say is, I'm heavily invested in the diversity of the guard and it's kits, if we end up with only modern special forces looking kinda guys (and girls, that would be nice tbh across the kits), and rules that followed that modern army kind of role, then I'm not for it.

Honestly, we don't really "lose anything" from the Praetorians going away or getting a modern look. Their whole schtick was the "Wot wot!" moustaches and helmets. As long as those elements get kept, you're golden.

By the by, the first design is a Raven Guard Auxiliary circa Horus Heresy. Or at least that's what the art was when I'd first seen it.