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See title. Assuming a basic Marine is properly costed at 20 points, all factors considered, how many points should a properly costed Necron Warrior be? This is purely opinion-do you feel that Warriors should be better than a Marine? Equal? Worse?

Note, this is NOT dependent upon their current profiles! This is based on how you feel they should be, relative to one another, in your ideal 40k.

Also, an explanation why would be cool too!

12ppm. I think thematically they are in the right ballpark at the moment, being just as strong and tough as a Marine but also worse at the actual h2h fighting part.

IMO they should have the same defensive profile as Marines (T4 W2 Sv3+), plus RPs.

However, I don't know exactly that would be worth, compared to all the goodies Marines get, so you'll have to extrapolate from there.

 vipoid wrote:
IMO they should have the same defensive profile as Marines (T4 W2 Sv3+), plus RPs.

However, I don't know exactly that would be worth, compared to all the goodies Marines get, so you'll have to extrapolate from there.

Not needed. If you think a Warrior should be, all factors considered, just about on par with a Marine, 20 points.
If you think they should be worth a Marine and a half, 30 points.
If you think they should be worse, 15 points or so.

If you really don't know, that's okay though. It's a tricky question-I've not answered the poll myself yet!

Necron warriors should be a bit easier to drop than a marine (but be able to get back up), slightly more killy at range, and less killy in combat.

Thats almost where they are now. With the addition of ap-1, 30" range, and bolter drill however, marines have become more killy at range than necrons so theres an issue here.

As durable as a marine, plus RP, with slightly better firepower. 25-29.

Reposting my graph for context.

+1 for Warriors being slower but more durable than SM (primarily via RP, though I don't think increased T or W would be awry). In my opinion, their basic weaponry should be superior to the bolter, but that they should have fewer gear options in general. Immunity or resistance to Posion and anything psychology-related would be good, though I voted 25-29 pts and granting either might require them to go up a few ppm.

Should be as tough on the stats, slight edge from RPs. Guns should be maybe a little better, but not outrageously so. But massive Achilles heal in CC, and less options and flexibility. So overall close, but a little less points.

Plus I’d like my marines to be outnumbered by necrons. Not full on horde army level, but you should have more basic silver boys on the table then I have battle-brothers.

Full disclosure, I’m not up on the most recent Necron rules, just going from historic feel here.

Not at all as easy as comparing stats.

Is a 4+ save less useful than a 3+ save? Yes.

The marine has an extra wound, but outside of a nearby Apothecary, little in the way of getting back up after being all blown up.

With the right gear and right stratagem, I can have three units of Warriors brought on/redeployed pretty much where I wish. Marines, to the best of my knowledge, cannot.

My Warriors can be made further resilient with a Ghost Ark. Marines, again to the best of my knowledge, cannot.

I can use my Warriors to block your assault route to a C’Tan, allowing it to fart out Mortal Wounds and give you a really hard time. Marines cannot.

With the right Cryptek lurking, my Warriors can benefit from a welcome 5+ invulnerable. Marines cannot.

Necron anti-tank tends to have flat damage, or be D3+3. Marines, not so much. Eradicators (melts dudes, I think that’s the right name) can, but don’t have the range nor resilience my toys enjoy.

In short? You can’t really compare two units in a vacuum, especially in modern 40K where a large chunk of any winning strategy is the cunning application of buff bubbles and stratagems.

I like them fine as they are. They're currently pretty tough with RP, cheap enough that you can see anywhere from 20 - 80 of them on the table in reasonable lists, and they have solid firepower with gauss reapers and their stratagems.

The fact is just like the Carnifex they've had to shift down in power as more has been added to the Necron codex. To power them back up you need to add a potentially unfun rule like Phase Out into the game or give specific Necron units crippling flaws that can be exploited.

Has the Tactical Marine shifted downward to fit more in the Marine codex? I think not.

So with 100+ datasheets Marines must be "shifted down" to S/T 1 now?

What potentially unfun rule or crippling flaw was implemented when they cranked up Marines power level?

*Kudos on the excellent bait in your ongoing forum wars hobby.

Necron Warriors have the right price to be elite enough to feel necron and cheap enough to be field in hordes and make the silver tide work visually and mechanically on the table allowing for using all the other good stuff present necrons have that they didnt had in past editions. I mean. Compare Necron warriors to basically all troops in the game that arent a loyalist marine or a custode.

25 ppm necron warriors would be just too expensive. 1000 points for 40. No worth it. And you would not be able to make proper silver tide lists.

Now... Inmortals? They could probably be 25-30 points and be really scary on the table, allowing Necron players to have that very elite, terminator-like troops.

Thematically, I always thought of these guys as T-800s, which would put them at or slightly above the level of a Marine.

I know that's not how they play on the tabletop, but it still sticks with me.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Has the Tactical Marine shifted downward to fit more in the Marine codex? I think not.

Marine units are all based around just a few profiles though. Many of their 'unique' units are just a Tactical Marine, Primaris Marine, Terminator, or Gravis body with an added special rule or two and some weapons. Then you have their characters and vehicles making up the rest of the codex. They don't suffer from the issues other books have which is probably partially responsible for them getting so much stuff.

A book that doesn't reuse the same profile in all slots doesn't have this flexibility. Warriors are just warriors and it wouldn't make sense to have a version or two of them in each role in the Necron codex. The same goes for the Carnifex staying as a top-end threat while being tiny compared to other Tyranid units.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Thematically, I always thought of these guys as T-800s, which would put them at or slightly above the level of a Marine.

I know that's not how they play on the tabletop, but it still sticks with me.

To be honest, I’m pretty sure an Astartes would make short work of a T-800, Model 101.

The T-800 for a start is fairly slow. Sure, it doesn’t tire, but then nor does the Astartes. In power armour, I’d say it’s a non-contest. Not quite grown man vs Toddler non-contest. But certainly grown man vs spotty teen non-contest.

Hmmmm.....I feel a slightly daft thread topic coming on....

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Has the Tactical Marine shifted downward to fit more in the Marine codex? I think not.

Marine units are all based around just a few profiles though. Many of their 'unique' units are just a Tactical Marine, Primaris Marine, Terminator, or Gravis body with an added special rule or two and some weapons. Then you have their characters and vehicles making up the rest of the codex. They don't suffer from the issues other books have which is probably partially responsible for them getting so much stuff.

A book that doesn't reuse the same profile in all slots doesn't have this flexibility. Warriors are just warriors and it wouldn't make sense to have a version or two of them in each role in the Necron codex. The same goes for the Carnifex staying as a top-end threat while being tiny compared to other Tyranid units.

That also means that new units could use an existing profile without any issue, and without necessitating a degradation elsewhere.

Galas wrote:Necron Warriors have the right price to be elite enough to feel necron and cheap enough to be field in hordes and make the silver tide work visually and mechanically on the table allowing for using all the other good stuff present necrons have that they didnt had in past editions. I mean. Compare Necron warriors to basically all troops in the game that arent a loyalist marine or a custode.

25 ppm necron warriors would be just too expensive. 1000 points for 40. No worth it. And you would not be able to make proper silver tide lists.

Now... Inmortals? They could probably be 25-30 points and be really scary on the table, allowing Necron players to have that very elite, terminator-like troops.

I am in agreement with this. Necron units just don't have the flexibility of Marines, and yes, while they pay points for that flexibility, having access to it is a major advantage.

If baseline stats were the same, I'd say in the 18-22 range, but if W and Save stay as is and Gauss allowed to randomly generate an extra Wound (like on a natural Wound of 6), then in the 14-17 range. As it is, their current price is acceptable with no other changes.

techsoldaten wrote:Thematically, I always thought of these guys as T-800s, which would put them at or slightly above the level of a Marine.

I know that's not how they play on the tabletop, but it still sticks with me.

Honestly, I think even Necron Warriors could take on T-800s quite easily. They didn't have self-repair protocols, and while they did have plasma guns (pulse-style in the 40w range), I don't think they were as effective as the Flayer.

Canadian 5th wrote:I like them fine as they are. They're currently pretty tough with RP, cheap enough that you can see anywhere from 20 - 80 of them on the table in reasonable lists, and they have solid firepower with gauss reapers and their stratagems.

The fact is just like the Carnifex they've had to shift down in power as more has been added to the Necron codex. To power them back up you need to add a potentially unfun rule like Phase Out into the game or give specific Necron units crippling flaws that can be exploited.

I rather disagree. Everything added in the last codex is either Character-based or Destroyer-based, so doesn't need to address Warriors. The Marine changes, though, rather do.

Is it possible to add more at the Warrior level? Maybe, we already have the Tomb Blades who are Biker Warriors, and Flayed Ones who are melee Warriors, so they would only address spammable specializations. However, the Necron army usually likes such specialization on heavier platforms like Immortals, Destroyers, and Praetorians.

 Insectum7 wrote:
As durable as a marine, plus RP, with slightly better firepower. 25-29.

Reposting my graph for context.

Hey first off, this is a really well done graph that gets your point across entirely. I love it.

Secondly It also highlights marine powercreep. lmao.

 Insectum7 wrote:
As durable as a marine, plus RP, with slightly better firepower. 25-29.

Reposting my graph for context.

Is the TLDR of this supposed to be, "Just play 5e. Stop buying current product and play 5e for free.", because I could swear that's all you actually want.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
As durable as a marine, plus RP, with slightly better firepower. 25-29.

Reposting my graph for context.

Is the TLDR of this supposed to be, "Just play 5e. Stop buying current product and play 5e for free.", because I could swear that's all you actually want.

Once again you somehow manage to miss the point

 JNAProductions wrote:
See title. Assuming a basic Marine is properly costed at 20 points, all factors considered, how many points should a properly costed Necron Warrior be? This is purely opinion-do you feel that Warriors should be better than a Marine? Equal? Worse?

Note, this is NOT dependent upon their current profiles! This is based on how you feel they should be, relative to one another, in your ideal 40k.

Also, an explanation why would be cool too!

How would I possibly determine what's a properly costed Necron warrior/SM/anything else without taking into account their profiles?

ccs wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
See title. Assuming a basic Marine is properly costed at 20 points, all factors considered, how many points should a properly costed Necron Warrior be? This is purely opinion-do you feel that Warriors should be better than a Marine? Equal? Worse?

Note, this is NOT dependent upon their current profiles! This is based on how you feel they should be, relative to one another, in your ideal 40k.

Also, an explanation why would be cool too!

How would I possibly determine what's a properly costed Necron warrior/SM/anything else without taking into account their profiles?

I'm asking what you think the relative value of a Marine and a Warrior should be.

If a Marine is properly costed at 20 points, how many points should a Warrior be worth?

ccs wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
See title. Assuming a basic Marine is properly costed at 20 points, all factors considered, how many points should a properly costed Necron Warrior be? This is purely opinion-do you feel that Warriors should be better than a Marine? Equal? Worse?

Note, this is NOT dependent upon their current profiles! This is based on how you feel they should be, relative to one another, in your ideal 40k.

Also, an explanation why would be cool too!

How would I possibly determine what's a properly costed Necron warrior/SM/anything else without taking into account their profiles?

Probably based off of fluff / appearance?

How do you *feel* a big metal robot that can teleport around outer space with weapons that flay atom like flesh should perform?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Once again you somehow manage to miss the point

The point being what? That the Murheen shooty toys are better than my plastic elf shooty toys and it wasn't this way a decade ago when my brain produced more dopamine so I hate the game now. Removed - Rule #1 please

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Once again you somehow manage to miss the point

The point being what? That the Murheen shooty toys are better than my plastic elf shooty toys and it wasn't this way a decade ago when my brain produced more dopamine so I hate the game now. Removed - Rule #1 please

Not sure why you care so much about everyone's hairline or waistline and frankly that is none of your business.
Jumping to insults because you cannot handle someone disagreeing with what you think is "right" shows your mindset.

You should probably leave here and never come back, discussions are clearly beyond you.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to the question but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Stateline is fine for a warrior. I'd says it's RP that's not correct. I think it's very proper that a Necron gets taken out by whatever and then gets back up. Isn't that more on theme than being 2 wounds?

Easy to knock down but difficult to keep down.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm not sure what the right answer is to the question but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Stateline is fine for a warrior. I'd says it's RP that's not correct. I think it's very proper that a Necron gets taken out by whatever and then gets back up. Isn't that more on theme than being 2 wounds?

Easy to knock down but difficult to keep down.

Well they're also supposed to be tough as hell to begin with. If what you're arguing is the case why not make GEQs with RP?

Hecaton wrote:
Well they're also supposed to be tough as hell to begin with. If what you're arguing is the case why not make GEQs with RP?

You have to make the villain that keeps getting up at least somewhat scary so you can't dilute their power too much. In this case, you also can't make them too strong or Necrons go from being a faceless horde to T-1000s cosplaying as Jason Vorhees with Marines as camp counselors.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

You have to make the villain that keeps getting up at least somewhat scary so you can't dilute their power too much. In this case, you also can't make them too strong or Necrons go from being a faceless horde to T-1000s cosplaying as Jason Vorhees with Marines as camp counselors.

The 40k power scale goes pretty high, "slightly more powerful than a Tac Marine" is a good place to be. It also makes the Astartes seem much more heroic when they beat them.