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Charistoph wrote: On the other hand, Imperial-class Star Destroyers are little more than Cruiser sized ships at BFG's scale
A cruiser-sized ship with 40k fighter-like speed and battleship class firepower sounds like a nightmare for the IoM.
More like a Corvette's speed, and limited to just guns with no fighter tracking back up by no torpedo or lance weaponry and a paltry number of small craft.
Canadian 5th wrote:
[T]he Warp sometimes drops people out of it before they even leave.
As often it eats an entire fleet or causes it to arrive decades late. Unpredictable travel times for every ship in a given fleet is not an advantage.
All to true, but sometimes it is when it works. Merely keeping some of the factors in mind.
Canadian 5th wrote:
As for those moon-sized battle stations, that assumes they can keep them operational long enough.
Does the IoM have an X-Wing equivalent that is piloted by somebody with GEoMK level predestined greatness? If not they never lose the first Death Star let alone any follow ups.
No, they just lose them to their own internal struggles before they are ever deployed against the Imperium. As it is, they would probably be facing a fleet that would be firing boarding torpedoes full of Astartes to blow them up like Space Hulks. The Death Stars' guns were rather poor at tracking such small things.
It would be interesting to see if they could deploy Exterminatus scale weaponry against it, though. Also would be interesting to see if Abaddon's Planet Killer would be able to do much.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Also the Imperium of Man vastly outnumbers the population the Galactic Empire is willing to use.
That doesn't mean anything when we know Palpatine is willing to use clones and droids to his advantage.
Except he stopped using them fairly early, and any other reference of Imperials using clones and droids for combat is back in Legends.
Insectum7 wrote:Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
Which is more scary, the Death Star with legions of Stormtroopers or a Space Hulk full of Genestealers and Orks?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Charistoph wrote: More like a Corvette's speed, and limited to just guns with no fighter tracking back up by no torpedo or lance weaponry and a paltry number of small craft.
Lances have a shorter range and most IoM ships are mainly armed with macro cannons which track worse than anything in Star Wars and are hand loaded for a crap RoF.
All to true, but sometimes it is when it works. Merely keeping some of the factors in mind.
So a lone ship shows up to a battle early. If it's a halfway defended system it then has to deal with PDF forces alone, if it's a backwater it lacks the troops to pacify the planet and gets stomped in a couple of hours when a sector fleet shows up.
No, they just lose them to their own internal struggles before they are ever deployed against the Imperium.
I doubt the rebels are an issue when the GE actually has a proper outside threat. If the DS is required to win the battle Luke won't have the force lead him to destroy it.
As it is, they would probably be facing a fleet that would be firing boarding torpedoes full of Astartes to blow them up like Space Hulks. The Death Stars' guns were rather poor at tracking such small things.
They were poor at tracking them at extremely close range. Also, the DS would likely fire upon a capital ship or fleet of ships that would need to close range slooooowly to even launch a boarding action. There's a reason why the rebels attacked it with only a handful of small craft as any capital ships would have been destroyed before they did anything.
It would be interesting to see if they could deploy Exterminatus scale weaponry against it, though. Also would be interesting to see if Abaddon's Planet Killer would be able to do much.
How do they ever get these weapons in position to attack a station that can jump across the galaxy in less than a day when the warp and then the sublight travel into a system can take months to cross a sector?
Except he stopped using them fairly early, and any other reference of Imperials using clones and droids for combat is back in Legends.
He stopped using them because he didn't have any need for them. Droids and clones are useless against a rebellion.
That said, we see Dark Troopers in the Mandalorian, and that project would surely have been given higher priority if the GE had a full-scale war to wage.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Charistoph wrote: More like a Corvette's speed, and limited to just guns with no fighter tracking back up by no torpedo or lance weaponry and a paltry number of small craft.
Lances have a shorter range and most IoM ships are mainly armed with macro cannons which track worse than anything in Star Wars and are hand loaded for a crap RoF.
Lances are also designed to defeat any of the defenses normally seen quite easily. Also interesting that you ignored the torpedos, which Star Destroyers only have heavy guns and snub fighters to defend against them.
Canadian 5th wrote:
All to true, but sometimes it is when it works. Merely keeping some of the factors in mind.
So a lone ship shows up to a battle early. If it's a halfway defended system it then has to deal with PDF forces alone, if it's a backwater it lacks the troops to pacify the planet and gets stomped in a couple of hours when a sector fleet shows up.
I have not heard of a fleet being separated like that in the Warp, but it is possible. That's part of the benefit and deficit of Warp travel.
Canadian 5th wrote:
No, they just lose them to their own internal struggles before they are ever deployed against the Imperium.
I doubt the rebels are an issue when the GE actually has a proper outside threat. If the DS is required to win the battle Luke won't have the force lead him to destroy it.
You're assuming the Rebels know about the Imperium of Man and are more scared of the Imperium of Man than the Galactic Empire. To be fair, most of the aliens would be just as scared of both of them.
Canadian 5th wrote:
As it is, they would probably be facing a fleet that would be firing boarding torpedoes full of Astartes to blow them up like Space Hulks. The Death Stars' guns were rather poor at tracking such small things.
They were poor at tracking them at extremely close range. Also, the DS would likely fire upon a capital ship or fleet of ships that would need to close range slooooowly to even launch a boarding action. There's a reason why the rebels attacked it with only a handful of small craft as any capital ships would have been destroyed before they did anything.
The Rebels also didn't have much of a fleet on location and could arrive in time to answer the Death Star, the Imperuim of Man has a LOT of starships in comparison. If they couldn't get boarding torpedoes to work, there are enough Storm* landers that could handle the task of boarding.
I don't know how slowly they would need to close with, honestly. I haven't taken the time to translate all that out. Also consider that "slow" in BFG may not translate to "slow" in Star Wars.
Canadian 5th wrote:
It would be interesting to see if they could deploy Exterminatus scale weaponry against it, though. Also would be interesting to see if Abaddon's Planet Killer would be able to do much.
How do they ever get these weapons in position to attack a station that can jump across the galaxy in less than a day when the warp and then the sublight travel into a system can take months to cross a sector?
A lot of Imperium capital ships carry such weaponry, and I'm sure that someone like Tarkin or Palpatine would try and prove how much bigger a dog their Death Star is to take them on directly.
And it takes a bit longer to cross the galaxy in Star Wars. Usual transit time is about a week from Coruscant to the edge of the galaxy, at least. The first Death Star only carried a Class 4 hyperdrive, making it about an eighth as fast in hyper as the Millenium Falcon. It would also have to exit much sooner due to its much more massive size. The Death Star 2 was even larger, and there are some statements it had a faster hyperdrive (Class 3), but its size would still limit its capacity to maneuver.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Except he stopped using them fairly early, and any other reference of Imperials using clones and droids for combat is back in Legends.
He stopped using them because he didn't have any need for them. Droids and clones are useless against a rebellion.
Not true. They are actually quite effective due to their ability to follow orders. They also didn't have any ties to family to give them remorse over their actions.
The reason the Trooper system was implemented was literally to deprive rebels of manpower by encouraging those who would fight in to a system that would brainwash them in to loyal machines.
Canadian 5th wrote:That said, we see Dark Troopers in the Mandalorian, and that project would surely have been given higher priority if the GE had a full-scale war to wage.
The Mandalorian was post-Palpatine. Even if we were to consider Dark Forces (which is Legends now), the prototypes were all cyborgs needing life to provide the Force aspects desired.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/14 03:19:30
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
They can teleport troops from low to maybe at a stretch medium orbit. That's a maximum range of 22,000 km, that's well within can't miss range for a Star Destroyer.
"The Venator-class's eight heavy dual turbolaser turrets were its main weapons and had two tracking modes. In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of ten light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode."
Even if you don't buy that we can see Star Destroyer weapons ranges demonstrated at Hoth and they're at least within the same range band as an IoM teleporter. That means they might get a strike team or two inside, with no maps, no knowledge of Imperial technology, and no Vader telling his troops not to kill the crew of the ship he just bugged to track the rebels back to their base. They might spend weeks trudging through the halls of the DS without finding anything vital to even attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: Lances are also designed to defeat any of the defenses normally seen quite easily.
Defeating void shields doesn't mean they do the same to the shields of any other universe.
Also interesting that you ignored the torpedos, which Star Destroyers only have heavy guns and snub fighters to defend against them.
You mean those torpedos that are slow enough to miss IoM vessels? I don't think they have a hope in hell of hitting anything that sees them coming.
I have not heard of a fleet being separated like that in the Warp, but it is possible. That's part of the benefit and deficit of Warp travel.
There's no benefit to random travel times with a slow average speed.
You're assuming the Rebels know about the Imperium of Man and are more scared of the Imperium of Man than the Galactic Empire. To be fair, most of the aliens would be just as scared of both of them.
You really think Palpatine wouldn't flog that propaganda as soon as he learned of the threat. This is exactly the outside threat that he needs to keep his empire together.
The Rebels also didn't have much of a fleet on location and could arrive in time to answer the Death Star, the Imperuim of Man has a LOT of starships in comparison.
A lot of ships that they literally cannot ever gather. It would take many decades just for these ships to all travel to one location and then they'd still need to start moving towards the DS's last known location. They're never bringing it to battle unless the DS jumps into them.
If they couldn't get boarding torpedoes to work, there are enough Storm* landers that could handle the task of boarding.
That assumes they can cut through the hull. Can you show that they're able to do so?
I don't know how slowly they would need to close with, honestly. I haven't taken the time to translate all that out. Also consider that "slow" in BFG may not translate to "slow" in Star Wars.
So then put in the effort. I can find quotes to support my points I expect that it wouldn't take much work for you to do the same.
A lot of Imperium capital ships carry such weaponry, and I'm sure that someone like Tarkin or Palpatine would try and prove how much bigger a dog their Death Star is to take them on directly.
I'm sure lobbing a Virus bomb at the DS would really accomplish a lot. Hell most 40k Exterminatus attacks aren't the same level as a Base Delta Zero attack which can be done in hours by a trio of ISDs:
And it takes a bit longer to cross the galaxy in Star Wars. Usual transit time is about a week from Coruscant to the edge of the galaxy, at least. The first Death Star only carried a Class 4 hyperdrive, making it about an eighth as fast in hyper as the Millenium Falcon. It would also have to exit much sooner due to its much more massive size. The Death Star 2 was even larger, and there are some statements it had a faster hyperdrive (Class 3), but its size would still limit its capacity to maneuver.
Even if it takes a week for a fleet to go from Center to Rim that's hundreds of times faster than any typical IoM fleet can manage.
Not true. They are actually quite effective due to their ability to follow orders. They also didn't have any ties to family to give them remorse over their actions.
How does that help win hearts and minds or hunt down a rebel cell? Droids in Star Wars are powerful and intelligent but are known for being uncreative and thus not suited for an occupation.
The Mandalorian was post-Palpatine. Even if we were to consider Dark Forces (which is Legends now), the prototypes were all cyborgs needing life to provide the Force aspects desired.
Yes, but we know he had a hand in their creation. I don't know that Palpatine would have sped up the project in the event of war but he could have. In the worst-case he dusts off the old battle droid factories and really sets to work cranking out a fleet which we've seen him do before as Chancellor of the Republic. When SW wants war material they can sure crank it out.
Also, we see Phase 3 units in the show which are fully robotic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/14 03:52:13
Charistoph wrote: Lances are also designed to defeat any of the defenses normally seen quite easily.
Defeating void shields doesn't mean they do the same to the shields of any other universe.
Doesn't mean that they can't, either. Speaking of void shields, you're assuming a turbolaser will be as/more effective than the standard guns on an Imperium ship.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Also interesting that you ignored the torpedos, which Star Destroyers only have heavy guns and snub fighters to defend against them.
You mean those torpedos that are slow enough to miss IoM vessels? I don't think they have a hope in hell of hitting anything that sees them coming.
You mean like a star destroyer following a light freighter that flies between you and a squadron mate and then runs their conning tower in to your flank?
Canadian 5th wrote:
I have not heard of a fleet being separated like that in the Warp, but it is possible. That's part of the benefit and deficit of Warp travel.
There's no benefit to random travel times with a slow average speed.
Sure there is when the odds are in your favor, and it's the only one you have access to. Especially considering which universe are we operating in, because there is no guarantee one system will work in the other.
Canadian 5th wrote:
You're assuming the Rebels know about the Imperium of Man and are more scared of the Imperium of Man than the Galactic Empire. To be fair, most of the aliens would be just as scared of both of them.
You really think Palpatine wouldn't flog that propaganda as soon as he learned of the threat. This is exactly the outside threat that he needs to keep his empire together.
If the Rebels never see them, would they believe Palpatine when all they see is the problems on their own world?
Canadian 5th wrote:
The Rebels also didn't have much of a fleet on location and could arrive in time to answer the Death Star, the Imperuim of Man has a LOT of starships in comparison.
A lot of ships that they literally cannot ever gather. It would take many decades just for these ships to all travel to one location and then they'd still need to start moving towards the DS's last known location. They're never bringing it to battle unless the DS jumps into them.
Yes, it was decades between A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. Oh wait, it was closer to 5 years. And you're the one talking about how quick hyperspace travel is...
Or were you referring to Imperium fleets? Your use of pronouns is undefining. If you are referring to Imperium fleets, they do not need to assemble them all as they have A LOT more ships, and they are already coordinated as fleets.
Canadian 5th wrote:
If they couldn't get boarding torpedoes to work, there are enough Storm* landers that could handle the task of boarding.
That assumes they can cut through the hull. Can you show that they're able to do so?
Why cut through a hull when you can see hanger bays hung like a belt across the center of the sphere?
Canadian 5th wrote:
I don't know how slowly they would need to close with, honestly. I haven't taken the time to translate all that out. Also consider that "slow" in BFG may not translate to "slow" in Star Wars.
So then put in the effort. I can find quotes to support my points I expect that it wouldn't take much work for you to do the same.
Hey, you're the one trying to prove how slow they are, so maybe you should provide the references.
Canadian 5th wrote:
A lot of Imperium capital ships carry such weaponry, and I'm sure that someone like Tarkin or Palpatine would try and prove how much bigger a dog their Death Star is to take them on directly.
I'm sure lobbing a Virus bomb at the DS would really accomplish a lot. Hell most 40k Exterminatus attacks aren't the same level as a Base Delta Zero attack which can be done in hours by a trio of ISDs:
Why not one of the crust crackers? Not all Exterminatus utilize virus-based systems. After all, they have to deal with Necrons, too.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And it takes a bit longer to cross the galaxy in Star Wars. Usual transit time is about a week from Coruscant to the edge of the galaxy, at least. The first Death Star only carried a Class 4 hyperdrive, making it about an eighth as fast in hyper as the Millenium Falcon. It would also have to exit much sooner due to its much more massive size. The Death Star 2 was even larger, and there are some statements it had a faster hyperdrive (Class 3), but its size would still limit its capacity to maneuver.
Even if it takes a week for a fleet to go from Center to Rim that's hundreds of times faster than any typical IoM fleet can manage.
Can typically manage, but it more points out how you are letting your prejudices color your commentary and ignore others.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Not true. They are actually quite effective due to their ability to follow orders. They also didn't have any ties to family to give them remorse over their actions.
How does that help win hearts and minds or hunt down a rebel cell? Droids in Star Wars are powerful and intelligent but are known for being uncreative and thus not suited for an occupation.
Clones could hunt them down quite readily. More importantly, Clones were designed to only be used for relatively short time (Captain Rex was about 10-13 during the Clone Wars, and 17 in Rebels) and assist in the destabilization of the Republic along with the Confederacy's droid armies. Palpatine also planted the seeds to drop them by tying them tightly to the Jedi Order in all imagery.
As for winning hearts and minds, like the Stormtroopers did any better? That was the role of the propaganda corps, not the soldiers. The soldiers were always seen as the fist of the Empire, the same role as Clones did for the Republic and the Droids did for the Confederacy.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The Mandalorian was post-Palpatine. Even if we were to consider Dark Forces (which is Legends now), the prototypes were all cyborgs needing life to provide the Force aspects desired.
Yes, but we know he had a hand in their creation. I don't know that Palpatine would have sped up the project in the event of war but he could have. In the worst-case he dusts off the old battle droid factories and really sets to work cranking out a fleet which we've seen him do before as Chancellor of the Republic. When SW wants war material they can sure crank it out.
Also, we see Phase 3 units in the show which are fully robotic.
Again, 5-6 years after Palpatine's death in Mandalorian. Do you have any canon material which places the Dark Trooper under Palpatine's order? As you said, the Empire can really crank out War Materiel, would this not be enough time for a base development run, especially considering all the new materiel the Clones received in less than 3 years of Clone Wars such as the Venator, Victory, and Arquitens cruisers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/14 05:50:31
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Charistoph wrote: Doesn't mean that they can't, either. Speaking of void shields, you're assuming a turbolaser will be as/more effective than the standard guns on an Imperium ship.
Yeah, I am because by both canon word of god and calculations they are.
You mean like a star destroyer following a light freighter that flies between you and a squadron mate and then runs their conning tower in to your flank?
They also managed to avoid ramming one another in that case as I recall.
Sure there is when the odds are in your favor, and it's the only one you have access to.
That doesn't mean anything when your foe has better.
Especially considering which universe are we operating in, because there is no guarantee one system will work in the other.
Usually, for versus debates you assume that both sides tech will work in the opponent's universe. Otherwise, there isn't a debate.
If the Rebels never see them, would they believe Palpatine when all they see is the problems on their own world?
You think that the Emperor wouldn't allow independent reporters to write stories about the horrors of this new foe so people will properly believe the threat?
Or were you referring to Imperium fleets? Your use of pronouns is undefining. If you are referring to Imperium fleets, they do not need to assemble them all as they have A LOT more ships, and they are already coordinated as fleets.
Given that it doesn't take years to get ships across the galaxy in SW I figured it would be obvious from context.
As for your a lot more ships statement, prove it. Back up that statement with quotes.
Why cut through a hull when you can see hanger bays hung like a belt across the center of the sphere?
Those are shielded and can be sealed with heavy blast doors.
Hey, you're the one trying to prove how slow they are, so maybe you should provide the references.
You haven't posted a single thing on behalf of any of your arguments thus far. I'm not providing any more proof of my claims beyond this post until you provide more of your own.
Why not one of the crust crackers? Not all Exterminatus utilize virus-based systems. After all, they have to deal with Necrons, too.
Crust crackers... That's what an ISDs heavy turbolasers do. That's not special.
Can typically manage, but it more points out how you are letting your prejudices color your commentary and ignore others.
I'm assuming both sides operate at their typical capacity. Given that warp travel is notoriously finicky it seems stupid to assume that they'll get their best speeds often enough to matter.
Clones could hunt them down quite readily.
If they weren't required why would anybody want to keep clones around?
Palpatine also planted the seeds to drop them by tying them tightly to the Jedi Order in all imagery.
In a total war scenario, you'd bring them - as well as the droids - out and spin the PR as using a weapon of last resort against a most dangerous foe.
As for winning hearts and minds, like the Stormtroopers did any better? That was the role of the propaganda corps, not the soldiers. The soldiers were always seen as the fist of the Empire, the same role as Clones did for the Republic and the Droids did for the Confederacy.
Only in sympathetic sectors. In a firmly Imperial sector, the elite infantry of the Empire would serve as a PR win. Just like a Marine is a hero in the US and public enemy number one in parts of the middle east.
Again, 5-6 years after Palpatine's death in Mandalorian. Do you have any canon material which places the Dark Trooper under Palpatine's order? As you said, the Empire can really crank out War Materiel, would this not be enough time for a base development run, especially considering all the new materiel the Clones received in less than 3 years of Clone Wars such as the Venator, Victory, and Arquitens cruisers?
They can teleport troops from low to maybe at a stretch medium orbit. That's a maximum range of 22,000 km, that's well within can't miss range for a Star Destroyer.
"The Venator-class's eight heavy dual turbolaser turrets were its main weapons and had two tracking modes. In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of ten light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode."
Even if you don't buy that we can see Star Destroyer weapons ranges demonstrated at Hoth and they're at least within the same range band as an IoM teleporter. That means they might get a strike team or two inside, with no maps, no knowledge of Imperial technology, and no Vader telling his troops not to kill the crew of the ship he just bugged to track the rebels back to their base. They might spend weeks trudging through the halls of the DS without finding anything vital to even attack.
The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
Orbital ranges are tiny compared to BFG weapons ranges anyways. I think a SM Strike Cruiser would happily be able to trade shots with a SD.
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
Charistoph wrote: Doesn't mean that they can't, either. Speaking of void shields, you're assuming a turbolaser will be as/more effective than the standard guns on an Imperium ship.
Yeah, I am because by both canon word of god and calculations they are.
Ah, fandom numbers from biased sites. Soo accurate. Not to mention we have no idea how they'd interact with the Void Shields.
Canadian 5th wrote:
You mean like a star destroyer following a light freighter that flies between you and a squadron mate and then runs their conning tower in to your flank?
They also managed to avoid ramming one another in that case as I recall.
Depends on which source you look at. There is no indication one way or the other that they hit other than the collision alarm and officers stumbling on the bridge in the movie, but the novelization does state a collision occurred. It was also referenced as happening in later novelizations as a captain remembers the event. Of course, that latter could be Legends. It's been a while since I read it.
And it was more an example of maneuverability, which they could have easily avoided each other if they are as fast and nimble as you are suggesting.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Especially considering which universe are we operating in, because there is no guarantee one system will work in the other.
Usually, for versus debates you assume that both sides tech will work in the opponent's universe. Otherwise, there isn't a debate.
Ah, so an ASSUMPTION... While I'll go as far as the weapon systems and basic normal space drives and such, this would be implying that the Warp is available in the Star Wars universe.
Though, I'm sure the Tau would LOVE to get their hands on even a Class 4 Hyperdrive.
Canadian 5th wrote:
If the Rebels never see them, would they believe Palpatine when all they see is the problems on their own world?
You think that the Emperor wouldn't allow independent reporters to write stories about the horrors of this new foe so people will properly believe the threat?
The Empire had independent reporters? That would be a first.
At best he would have a senator delegation who had been spouting anti-authoritarian drivel like Mothma or Organa to see the situation.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Or were you referring to Imperium fleets? Your use of pronouns is undefining. If you are referring to Imperium fleets, they do not need to assemble them all as they have A LOT more ships, and they are already coordinated as fleets.
Given that it doesn't take years to get ships across the galaxy in SW I figured it would be obvious from context.
As for your a lot more ships statement, prove it. Back up that statement with quotes.
A galaxy spanning Imperium having as few ships as a nascent Rebellion? Riiiight.
P. 86 Battlefleet Gothic, "Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varrying size, although in some sectors this will be more or less, according to the importance of the sector and the number of enemies it must contend with. As as as these destroyers, frigates, cruisers, and battleships..."
Meanwhile, the Rebellion brought about 37 ships to The Battle of Endor that weren't transports or fighters.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Why cut through a hull when you can see hanger bays hung like a belt across the center of the sphere?
Those are shielded and can be sealed with heavy blast doors.
Like they were at the Battle of Yavin and Endor, right? Keep in mind that the shield to keep in the atmosphere and ray shielding will not stop a rocket or a landing ship, and a blast door isn't as hard to get through as the hull armor.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Hey, you're the one trying to prove how slow they are, so maybe you should provide the references.
You haven't posted a single thing on behalf of any of your arguments thus far. I'm not providing any more proof of my claims beyond this post until you provide more of your own.
So you want ME to prove YOUR argument? Interesting.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Why not one of the crust crackers? Not all Exterminatus utilize virus-based systems. After all, they have to deal with Necrons, too.
Crust crackers... That's what an ISDs heavy turbolasers do. That's not special.
Actually, no. No turbo laser can crack the crust, they just melt and shatter what's on top of the crust. That was one of the reasons why Solo was so amazed to see the damage to Alderaan as it would take more than the whole fleet (outside DS-1) could accomplish.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Clones could hunt them down quite readily.
If they weren't required why would anybody want to keep clones around?
Non sequitor response.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Palpatine also planted the seeds to drop them by tying them tightly to the Jedi Order in all imagery.
In a total war scenario, you'd bring them - as well as the droids - out and spin the PR as using a weapon of last resort against a most dangerous foe.
Possibly, but we never really saw Palpatine in a total war scenario where he wasn't controlling the whole thing. If Thrawn was able to make his decisions, I would agree, but Palpatine and many Moffs were quite stupid when it came to such considerations.
Canadian 5th wrote:
As for winning hearts and minds, like the Stormtroopers did any better? That was the role of the propaganda corps, not the soldiers. The soldiers were always seen as the fist of the Empire, the same role as Clones did for the Republic and the Droids did for the Confederacy.
Only in sympathetic sectors. In a firmly Imperial sector, the elite infantry of the Empire would serve as a PR win. Just like a Marine is a hero in the US and public enemy number one in parts of the middle east.
Another non sequitor response. There is no place that is purely sympathetic and totally Imperial due to the underground. Stormtroopers were still the fist against the underground and most of the well to do who did go in to the military were part of the officer corps. The PC would still handle the job of winning hearts and minds to get people to volunteer to join the military.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Again, 5-6 years after Palpatine's death in Mandalorian. Do you have any canon material which places the Dark Trooper under Palpatine's order? As you said, the Empire can really crank out War Materiel, would this not be enough time for a base development run, especially considering all the new materiel the Clones received in less than 3 years of Clone Wars such as the Venator, Victory, and Arquitens cruisers?
"Despite this, the experimental Phase II Dark Trooper was evaluated by the Imperial Military during the Galactic Civil War..."
This sure makes it seem like Palpatine would have had a hand in their creation though the quotes from legends were far more conclusive.
Okay, let's look at the references.
The first attempt was considered a failure, leaving only the KS-series as the only combat droids that the Empire used.
The Dark Trooper project being during the Galactic Civil War is a mobile video game. Those are often non-canon, and only had the cyborg Dark Troopers, not the total battle droid.
Converting them to a droid is listed in the Mandalorian, which is 9 ABY. and in Dawn of Rebellion RPG book, but doesn't give a page reference or a time stamp.
It doesn't provide any quotes as to when the decision to go pure droid again was made.
Insectum7 wrote:The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
When? They didn't target the ground at all because it would bounce off the shields. By the time they brought it down, Vader was landing, and no one wanted to piss off Vader by dropping ordnance on his head because he probably would survive and be VERY unhappy. The only time we se Star Destroyers fire in Empire is when they are chasing the Falcon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/16 22:32:59
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
@Hoth, yeah? It's been a while. I thought there was some bits of SDs firing to the ground. . . But in hindsight I might be thinking of a cut scene from Tie Fighter, lol.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: People often focus on the toughness of Astartes, and forget about their sheer stamina.
Not only can they physically fight longer than their foes, but they don’t suffer from sleep deprivation, and are largely immune to psychological warfare.
Consider that Man and Dog are a successful hunting partnership, because both are persistence hunters. Sure, many animals are faster - but they can’t maintain it for very long.
An Astartes doesn’t just survive hit and fade attack strategies, but can maintain it for a ridiculously long period. Not hours, but days.
They don’t need to stop and tend to all but the most serious of wounds, because their bodies heal quickly and efficiently.
They can eat pretty much anything. So even the most inhospitable of terrain and that isn’t of much concern.
How does that stack up to a robot/droid that can do that but better and which can be built at a rate that makes guard recruitment look slow?
Depends entirely upon the robot/droid in question I guess.
How capable are they of learning? Do they have adaptive combat programming, or set parameters? Are they centrally controlled, or fully independent?
Given Astartes are quite unlike anything else, are they designed specifically to combat Astartes (and so with their speed, agility etc taken into account), or like a T-800, not really expecting much resistance beyond a starving survivor with little to no formal military training? After all, entire wars let alone battles have been lost because of an underestimated foe.
That alone I’d wager largely renders T-800 type stuff moot to an Astartes. They might be closer to a physical match in terms of raw strength and resilience, but without being designed to fight Astartes, the T-800 is at a serious disadvantage. Yes. They can learn. But you need to survive your mistakes to learn from them.
And in a full on War, your production facilities would be the first thing the Astartes would strike at - along with your supply chain. And if you’re as daft as the Trade Federation and have a literal Off Switch, that’s gonna get pressed pretty flipping soon.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And in a full on War, your production facilities would be the first thing the Astartes would strike at - along with your supply chain. And if you’re as daft as the Trade Federation and have a literal Off Switch, that’s gonna get pressed pretty flipping soon.
Not necessarily. Astartes also like to head hunt, too. It REALLY depends on the Chapter and the information on hand, too. I'd see most Chapters handing off the production facility targets to the Guard while they go after the engineers, managers, and the "Off Switch" (it wasn't really a switch, more a centralized control system, but it sure worked like one when destroyed!).
However, a Chapter like Iron Hands or Imperial Fists who look at materiel more than troops would probably target strong points or production facilities more than say the Black Templars or Space Wolves.
Could you imagine, though, Dark Angels hearing of a member of the Chosen in the enemy ranks, send in Deathwing and finding Darth Maul instead?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Just a quick blurb about Powered Armored in Starship Troopers:
"So how many weapons we looking at here? Well, in the first chapter of the book, Rico is participating in a quick raid on an alien city. Their objective was to smash and run, inflicting as much damage as possible but avoiding engagement with defense forces. For this missions he dropped into battle with: a rifle, a heavy flamer, a handheld flamer, an automatic grenade launcher (called a Y-rack) and multiple reloads, conventional thrown grenades, incendiary micro grenades (called firepills), and one psy-ops grenade (a talking timebomb). And topping it off since Rico was a non-com working on the flank, he was issued a rocket launcher with four low-yield nuclear rockets."
So, powered armor troops in Starship Troopers are much closer to the heavy battlesuits of the Tau than normal spacemarine infantry.
-STS
Grey Knights 712 points Imperial Stormtroopers 3042 points Lamenters 1787 points Xenomorphs 995 points 1200 points + 1790 points 770 points 369 points of Imperial Guard to bolster the Sisters of Battle
Kain said: "This will surely end in tears for everyone involved. How very 40k."
Flipsiders wrote: Does anyone know how fast a bolter's bolts actually go? It's pretty easy to determine that the "average Marine versus average Jedi" fight would hinge entirely around whether a Jedi would be able to stop or reflect them. It's canon in SW (at least legends) that bullets are too fast for a Jedi to catch, but obviously, even discounting the use of a lightsaber, blaster shots are not.
That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Given size, and weight ratio. Anywhere from 320-440 meters per second. As well as the rocket launching from the barrel to a distance of roughly a meter, before it's rocket propulsion sets in, and traveling anywhere up to 500 meters. Much like a conventional RPG, just liter, and probably faster.
There was a lot of testing done on weapons like this in the early to late 60s, called Gyrojet weapons. Though the biggest that they ever hit, was 20mm, and they could barely achieve anything as close to what they expected.
One has to wonder. Do the Tyranids consider drop-assault troops... fast food?
Take with a deathstar-sized pinch of salt. I avoided the old wars vs trek stuff back in the day but even I recognise that particular name. "Wrote a book to win the internet".
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
Take with a deathstar-sized pinch of salt. I avoided the old wars vs trek stuff back in the day but even I recognise that particular name. "Wrote a book to win the internet".
His numbers are literally canon so you can't even argue that he didn't win the debate.
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Oborosen wrote: Given size, and weight ratio. Anywhere from 320-440 meters per second. As well as the rocket launching from the barrel to a distance of roughly a meter, before it's rocket propulsion sets in, and traveling anywhere up to 500 meters. Much like a conventional RPG, just liter, and probably faster.
There was a lot of testing done on weapons like this in the early to late 60s, called Gyrojet weapons. Though the biggest that they ever hit, was 20mm, and they could barely achieve anything as close to what they expected.
Except that as shown in the canon 'Ultramarines: A Warhammer 40,0000 Move' that isn't how bolters actually function:
Scroll to 45 seconds and you'll see bolter fire.
Bolter rounds are likely a propelled gyrojet that shoots forth with bullet-like speed and uses its motor as both a tracer and a way to maintain a flat shooting trajectory over a long distance. This is supported in other material as we have references to their recoil being hard to handle*.
*https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Boltgun
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/17 16:06:00
Insectum7 wrote: The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
It still establishes ranges.
Orbital ranges are tiny compared to BFG weapons ranges anyways. I think a SM Strike Cruiser would happily be able to trade shots with a SD.
A common and relatively circular orbit is 35,786 km. Over even that kind of distance, an energy weapon will have an advantage over most IoM ship-mounted weapons. The exceptions being lances and spinal mounted nova cannons.
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
They typically know the rough layout of the ships they're boarding as many space hulks are former IoM vessels and many boarding actions take place against Chaos vessels which won't have major systems located dissimilarly to their own vessels. Even for more ramshackle Ork vessels, they'll figure out that the power plant is either in the middle or near the engines.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
Canadian 5th wrote: His numbers are literally canon so you can't even argue that he didn't win the debate.
It does take a special kind of person to write a book to win an internet argument...
Do you have proof that this is what he did or is this just speculation? My take is that he showed them his website, they were impressed by his technical knowledge and skill at explaining things, and he got the book deal because of that. From there he was able to make his takes on things canon but as those numbers were all derived anyway they don't conflict with anything we see on screen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 16:24:36
Insectum7 wrote: The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
It still establishes ranges.
Not really since nothing was fired in orbit, nor was anything mentioning range was stated in the Hoth sequence, other than the AT-ATs. The only time we see something actually out of range in space for Star Wars was The Last Jedi, and that movie was so bad at everything that it is rejected as canon by any reasonable fan.
Edit: The original movie did state a firing range for the moon of Yavin, but it also had to clear the gas giant before shooting it as being the concern.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Orbital ranges are tiny compared to BFG weapons ranges anyways. I think a SM Strike Cruiser would happily be able to trade shots with a SD.
A common and relatively circular orbit is 35,786 km. Over even that kind of distance, an energy weapon will have an advantage over most IoM ship-mounted weapons. The exceptions being lances and spinal mounted nova cannons.
Common for who?
Canadian 5th wrote:
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
They typically know the rough layout of the ships they're boarding as many space hulks are former IoM vessels and many boarding actions take place against Chaos vessels which won't have major systems located dissimilarly to their own vessels. Even for more ramshackle Ork vessels, they'll figure out that the power plant is either in the middle or near the engines.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
In some ways it is easier because it isn't a slap-dashed affair, and the station has records providing maps. Now getting to that information and pulling it up could be a challenge, but it exists.
So, still not that different an experience for Space Hulk veterans, except it's cleaner, brighter, and a lot less Genestealers and Orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/17 17:48:58
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Canadian 5th wrote: Do you have proof that this is what he did or is this just speculation? / From there he was able to make his takes on things canon but as those numbers were all derived anyway they don't conflict with anything we see on screen.
From a 'conflicting on screen' standpoint, there are remarkably few nuclear fireballs igniting in any scene where starship weapons strike something inside an atmosphere. Not all that familiar with his work so had to google a few and they were... interesting.
Did you know for example that the dinky little missiles fired by those clone landing craft from the prequels were listed has having (checks saxton) considerably more explosive power than the bomb on Nagasaki?
Lets see what else... medium turbolaser (aka generic capitol ship gun). Accurate range 10 light minutes, firepower 200 gigatons... (checks google) that's like shooting a 200 mile wide crater into Mars, from Earth, with each shot from each barrel of each 'medium' gun. I guess I missed that in the film.
You know i've worked for both Lucas Arts and Disney in the past and they are working with GW these days... perhaps I should put in a call, see if they need an author :p
Charistoph wrote: Not really since nothing was fired in orbit, nor was anything mentioning range was stated in the Hoth sequence, other than the AT-ATs.
I'm fairly sure the base shaking as the rebels escaped was due to orbital bombardment. I'll check the novelization when I'm able.
As for ranges, we know the size of a Star Destroyer, if we can get a fixed point of reference we should be able to figure out how far away it is when the ion cannon hits it based on its size.
The only time we see something actually out of range in space for Star Wars was The Last Jedi, and that movie was so bad at everything that it is rejected as canon by any reasonable fan.
I'm not a TLJ fan but it is canon...
Edit: The original movie did state a firing range for the moon of Yavin, but it also had to clear the gas giant before shooting it as being the concern.
Yeah, I don't doubt that the DS could have messed up Yavin itself but it was clearly designed to crack rocky planets.
Common for who?
Common for the communications satellites that orbit our own blue marble.
In some ways it is easier because it isn't a slap-dashed affair, and the station has records providing maps. Now getting to that information and pulling it up could be a challenge, but it exists.
Can they read basic? Do they have the technical expertise to interface with the Empire's computer systems? I doubt it.
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A.T. wrote: Did you know for example that the dinky little missiles fired by those clone landing craft from the prequels were listed has having (checks saxton) considerably more explosive power than the bomb on Nagasaki?
Is there any plausible reason they can't have that yield when we see a smuggler able to destroy asteroids with relatively tiny munitions?
Lets see what else... medium turbolaser (aka generic capitol ship gun). Accurate range 10 light minutes, firepower 200 gigatons... (checks google) that's like shooting a 200 mile wide crater into Mars, from Earth, with each shot from each barrel of each 'medium' gun. I guess I missed that in the film.
We know that Star Wars weapons are of adjustable yield hence all the scenes where we see characters calling for maximum or intensified firepower. See the AT-AT on Hoth for an example of dialing up higher single shot firepower.
Also, where do we ever see those heavy guns fire on anything that isn't either a shield or a neutronium impregnated hull designed to, as much as possible, take such attacks?
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Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
The Rogue Trader book puts the (presumably Imperial) maximum range at 100,000 kilometers, actually.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
The Rogue Trader book puts the (presumably Imperial) maximum range at 100,000 kilometers, actually.
Which is less than a third of the way to the moon, for reference. That is well within Death Star main weapon range
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 19:05:26
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
They typically know the rough layout of the ships they're boarding as many space hulks are former IoM vessels and many boarding actions take place against Chaos vessels which won't have major systems located dissimilarly to their own vessels. Even for more ramshackle Ork vessels, they'll figure out that the power plant is either in the middle or near the engines.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
Totally typical. Space Marines deploy against space stations, defense stations, bunkers, cities, governors mansions, alien space ships, posessed space ships, daemon planets, bioships, whatever. The Death Star is pretty typical, just large.
Here's what I'm really curious about. How would Storm Troopers even stop SM Terminators? They're basically guardsmen with lasguns, and they'll be fighting in relatively confined spaces without vehicle support.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
The Rogue Trader book puts the (presumably Imperial) maximum range at 100,000 kilometers, actually.
Which is less than a third of the way to the moon, for reference.
That seems like more than enough.
Edit: "That is well within Death Star main weapon range" Approach it from the other side and out of it's firing arc?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 19:11:45
Canadian 5th wrote: Is there any plausible reason they can't have that yield when we see a smuggler able to destroy asteroids with relatively tiny munitions?
Also, where do we ever see those heavy guns fire on anything that isn't either a shield or a neutronium impregnated hull designed to, as much as possible, take such attacks?
Look at all that neutronium that he's crumpling with his toes, the guy clearly doesn't skip leg day. - https://youtu.be/BjkEPhZTcMY?t=144
The whole weapons vs armour thing is bobbins anyway. You might as well claim the marines bolters have the firepower of a thousand suns, but you only ever seem them hitting neutronium impregnated flak armour.
Insectum7 wrote: But not necessarily effective or reliable ranges against smaller unpredictably moving targets.
It's a good thing that I can quote a 10 light second aimed fire range then isn't it?
Totally typical. Space Marines deploy against space stations, defense stations, bunkers, cities, governors mansions, alien space ships, posessed space ships, daemon planets, bioships, whatever. The Death Star is pretty typical, just large.
Scale makes even easy things a relative pain to do.
Here's what I'm really curious about. How would Storm Troopers even stop SM Terminators? They're basically guardsmen with lasguns, and they'll be fighting in relatively confined spaces without vehicle support.
Lasguns don't take fist-sized chunks out of duracrete do they?
See below from 1:05 until the shooting stops:
That seems like more than enough.
What IoM vessel is getting that close without being detected and blown away by the DS's surface guns?
Grey Knights 712 points 
Imperial Stormtroopers 3042 points 
Lamenters 1787 points 
Xenomorphs 995 points 
1200 points 
+ 
1790 points 
770 points 
369 points of Imperial Guard to bolster the Sisters of Battle
