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Are you sure they were firing the high yield versions of those weapons rather than something suited to their mission? It's not like we don't have IRL examples of aircraft having many different weapons loadouts.
Look at all that neutronium that he's crumpling with his toes, the guy clearly doesn't skip leg day. - https://youtu.be/BjkEPhZTcMY?t=144
The obviously wasn't a piece of armor plate. You can even see it's a loose square of thin metal before he lands on it.
The whole weapons vs armour thing is bobbins anyway. You might as well claim the marines bolters have the firepower of a thousand suns, but you only ever seem them hitting neutronium impregnated flak armour.
If that's what the setting said and we saw the effects of a stray bolter round one hitting the planet they're on I'd totally buy it. That's how this exercise works.
If that's what the setting said and we saw the effects of a stray bolter round one hitting the planet they're on I'd totally buy it. That's how this exercise works.
The planet is clearly made of neutronium. Or perhaps the bolter round was dialed down.
Or perhaps Saxtons' figures bear absolutely no resemblance to the films visuals. [shrug]
Here's what I'm really curious about. How would Storm Troopers even stop SM Terminators? They're basically guardsmen with lasguns, and they'll be fighting in relatively confined spaces without vehicle support.
Lasguns don't take fist-sized chunks out of duracrete do they?
See below from 1:05 until the shooting stops:
The same scene shows blasters glancing off the Falcon armor, and Leia takes a hit and it's basically a flesh wound in Jedi.
That seems like more than enough.
What IoM vessel is getting that close without being detected and blown away by the DS's surface guns?
How good are they at detecting and tracking vessels reliably? In the movies it looks like . . not great. In fact I don't think I see DS surface guns firing at anything other than rebel fighters near the surface.
Which is less than a third of the way to the moon, for reference.
That seems like more than enough.
The death star superlaser has an effective range of millions of kilometres. How do you propose to approach undetected?
Dunno, a weapons range says little about effective target detection, aquisition and tracking/hitting ranges. I think BFG tables and some weapons are in the "millions of kilometers" range. I don't have too much experience with BFG though.
If that's what the setting said and we saw the effects of a stray bolter round one hitting the planet they're on I'd totally buy it. That's how this exercise works.
The planet is clearly made of neutronium. Or perhaps the bolter round was dialed down.
Or perhaps Saxtons' figures bear absolutely no resemblance to the films visuals. [shrug]
Except we have literal on-screen evidence that 'laser' weaponry in SW can be dialed up and down in power. Do I need to start posting clips of every time somebody has asked for increased firepower in a SW film for you to get this or are you just a troll who can't do math and has to resort to flat earther style 'I dun see no curve' arguments?
Canadian 5th wrote: Except we have literal on-screen evidence that 'laser' weaponry in SW can be dialed up and down in power. Do I need to start posting clips of every time somebody has asked for increased firepower in a SW film for you to get this or are you just a troll who can't do math and has to resort to flat earther style 'I dun see no curve' arguments?
I've provided clips. Even took the time to pick out a clip of weapons being fired at a spacecraft to cover the whole 'neutronium impregnated hull' thing you mentioned.
I don't dispute that SW weapons can be dialed up and down, just your assertion that every single time we see them on screen they are just coincidentally firing in some alternate mode a thousand times less powerful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/17 21:16:54
Charistoph wrote: Not really since nothing was fired in orbit, nor was anything mentioning range was stated in the Hoth sequence, other than the AT-ATs.
I'm fairly sure the base shaking as the rebels escaped was due to orbital bombardment. I'll check the novelization when I'm able.
While Vader is walking through it? Ballsy. Before that, it was the cannon fire from the AT-ATs because the planetary shield wasn't yet down.
Canadian 5th wrote:As for ranges, we know the size of a Star Destroyer, if we can get a fixed point of reference we should be able to figure out how far away it is when the ion cannon hits it based on its size.
That's a planetary defense Ion Cannon, not the Heavy Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons that are on an Imperial class. That's like using the guns of the Maginot line to define the ranges of the early Panzer tanks.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The only time we see something actually out of range in space for Star Wars was The Last Jedi, and that movie was so bad at everything that it is rejected as canon by any reasonable fan.
I'm not a TLJ fan but it is canon...
There have been rumors that movie, or even its trilogy, may be discounted due to its lack of positive reception. They are just rumors though, so they are probably not true and you should tell everyone you know. It also doesn't help that movie contradicts soooo much about what we've seen as canon from other movies that I have a hard time accepting its canonicity. Dark Forces carries more canon for me than that moldering pile of waste.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Edit: The original movie did state a firing range for the moon of Yavin, but it also had to clear the gas giant before shooting it as being the concern.
Yeah, I don't doubt that the DS could have messed up Yavin itself but it was clearly designed to crack rocky planets.
True, I was just clarifying about mentioing ranges in the original series. They also talk about engaging at point-blank range in Return of the Jedi, but that is more of going away from the purpose of the discussion.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Common for who?
Common for the communications satellites that orbit our own blue marble.
So not anyone we're talking about.
Canadian 5th wrote:
In some ways it is easier because it isn't a slap-dashed affair, and the station has records providing maps. Now getting to that information and pulling it up could be a challenge, but it exists.
Can they read basic? Do they have the technical expertise to interface with the Empire's computer systems? I doubt it.
I think you mean Aurebesh, that's the written language.
Maps in the Death Star are pictographic and didn't have any Aurebesh on them at all (though, the one showing them was a droid who already understood Aurebesh in Star Wars).
And as I said, pulling it up would be a challenge, largely due to different programming methods as well as the language differences.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
A.T. wrote: I've provided clips. Even took the time to pick out a clip of weapons being fired at a spacecraft to cover the whole 'neutronium impregnated hull' thing you mentioned.
Weapons fired at a spacecraft should be either absorbed by shielding (to varying degrees as we do see damage bleed through shields), or dispersed by the hull. When we see hits that inflict minimal damage to a ship it should probably make a person think that the ships are tough rather than that the weapons are weak; much the same as we would think if we watched a WW2 tank fail to defeat the armor of a modern MBT.
I don't dispute that SW weapons can be dialed up and down, just your assertion that every single time we see them on screen they are just coincidentally firing in some alternate mode a thousand times less powerful.
Except for the times we see them do real damage by slagging space rocks with ease, blowing fist-size chunks out of walls, or other such feats which can and have been scaled from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: While Vader is walking through it? Ballsy. Before that, it was the cannon fire from the AT-ATs because the planetary shield wasn't yet down.
Like I said I'll check and see if my recollection is correct.
That's a planetary defense Ion Cannon, not the Heavy Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons that are on an Imperial class. That's like using the guns of the Maginot line to define the ranges of the early Panzer tanks.
How do you know if the Hoth Ion Cannon is supposed to be any more or less powerful than a ship-mounted weapon?
There have been rumors that movie, or even its trilogy, may be discounted due to its lack of positive reception. They are just rumors though, so they are probably not true and you should tell everyone you know. It also doesn't help that movie contradicts soooo much about what we've seen as canon from other movies that I have a hard time accepting its canonicity. Dark Forces carries more canon for me than that moldering pile of waste.
Disney won't retconn an entire movie trilogy due to butthurt fans on the internet.
So not anyone we're talking about.
The comment that spawned talk of orbits was that orbital ranges were low. I pointed out that they're actually fairly large if still small in terms of how vast space is.
I think you mean Aurebesh, that's the written language.
Indeed. It's been a fair while since I had to dig deep into my Star Wars knowledge.
Maps in the Death Star are pictographic and didn't have any Aurebesh on them at all (though, the one showing them was a droid who already understood Aurebesh in Star Wars).
And as I said, pulling it up would be a challenge, largely due to different programming methods as well as the language differences.
As I recall even R2-D2 shouldn't have been able to do it so a challenge seems an understatement.
I was wrong it's 10 light-minute ranges for aimed fire.
"The Venator-class's eight heavy dual turbolaser turrets were its main weapons and had two tracking modes. In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of ten light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode."
That quote is from wookiepedia for the class of ship in question. I can get a full quote when I'm home and have access to my books.
The same scene shows blasters glancing off the Falcon armor
Is the Falcon supposed to be made of duracrete now?
Leia takes a hit and it's basically a flesh wound in Jedi.
There's no good answer to this one. The answers are either whatever she's wearing is better than stormtrooper armor or that she uses the force to stop it as a reflex. As far as I know, there isn't a canon explanation for that particular case.
How good are they at detecting and tracking vessels reliably? In the movies it looks like . . not great. In fact I don't think I see DS surface guns firing at anything other than rebel fighters near the surface.
The Death Star's guns are specifically for anti-capital ship work and were never designed to engage fighters which weren't seen as a threat. Had they deployed TIEs as would have been sensible the rebel attack would have posed zero threat to the statation.
Dunno, a weapons range says little about effective target detection, aquisition and tracking/hitting ranges. I think BFG tables and some weapons are in the "millions of kilometers" range. I don't have too much experience with BFG though.
A Clone Wars era capital ship has a canon range of 10 light-minutes for anti-ship firepower from its main guns. Unless you have a reason why the DS should have worse gunnery capabilities then it should be able to swat down fleets at any range required.
Charistoph wrote: Ah, fandom numbers from biased sites. Soo accurate. Not to mention we have no idea how they'd interact with the Void Shields.
If they're so obviously biased, and Connor's numbers are no by any means biased, you should be able to disprove them by showing that either the math or the method is incorrect. Can you do this?
Canadian 5th wrote:Depends on which source you look at. There is no indication one way or the other that they hit other than the collision alarm and officers stumbling on the bridge in the movie, but the novelization does state a collision occurred. It was also referenced as happening in later novelizations as a captain remembers the event.
In that case, I get to use the RotJ novelization which proves that fighters need shields to be down before they can seriously threaten a capital ship.
And it was more an example of maneuverability, which they could have easily avoided each other if they are as fast and nimble as you are suggesting.
Ships run aground when they can easily avoid it. This was a communications and navigational error and not an example showing they can't maneuver.
Ah, so an ASSUMPTION... While I'll go as far as the weapon systems and basic normal space drives and such, this would be implying that the Warp is available in the Star Wars universe.
Why even make the assumption that on or both sides FTL systems don't work in a versus where that is literally required for them to fight one another?
The Empire had independent reporters? That would be a first.
There were still independent systems even entire clusters like Hapes that were left alone. Unless entire systems didn't have their own press this alone proves the presence of independent reporters.
A galaxy spanning Imperium having as few ships as a nascent Rebellion? Riiiight.
That was never what I said... I said that the IoM would have trouble assembling their fleets due to the slow speed of warp travel and their unreliable FTL comms.
Like they were at the Battle of Yavin and Endor, right? Keep in mind that the shield to keep in the atmosphere and ray shielding will not stop a rocket or a landing ship, and a blast door isn't as hard to get through as the hull armor.
Why wouldn't the hanger be covered by a proper shield when not launching or retrieving fighters?
So you want ME to prove YOUR argument? Interesting.
You've offered no evidence for your claims. So I'm going to do the same here..
Actually, no. No turbo laser can crack the crust, they just melt and shatter what's on top of the crust. That was one of the reasons why Solo was so amazed to see the damage to Alderaan as it would take more than the whole fleet (outside DS-1) could accomplish.
The crust is the top layer of the planet's surface (leaving aside oceans and the atmosphere) so there isn't a layer over the crust to be merely melted and shattered. Unless you're taking crust cracking to mean blowing up a planet an ISD can indeed crack some crust with authority before melting a planet down into a many meters thick layer of molten slag.
There is no place that is purely sympathetic and totally Imperial due to the underground.
That's like saying that not every American thinks fallen soldiers are heroes. Sure it's tehnically true but in reality, enough people do that soldiers make for good propaganda.
Okay, let's look at the references.
The first attempt was considered a failure, leaving only the KS-series as the only combat droids that the Empire used.
The Dark Trooper project being during the Galactic Civil War is a mobile video game. Those are often non-canon, and only had the cyborg Dark Troopers, not the total battle droid.
Converting them to a droid is listed in the Mandalorian, which is 9 ABY. and in Dawn of Rebellion RPG book, but doesn't give a page reference or a time stamp.
It doesn't provide any quotes as to when the decision to go pure droid again was made.
Palpatine started the program, he very well might have asked to have it sped up, or he may have returned to older technology or just press-ganged a bunch of citizens into the fight. The method is immaterial the fact is the Empire can crank out the material needed for war extremely quickly and wouldn't hesitate to use droids as required.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 23:23:23
Canadian 5th wrote: When we see hits that inflict minimal damage to a ship it should probably make a person think that the ships are tough rather than that the weapons are weak; much the same as we would think if we watched a WW2 tank fail to defeat the armor of a modern MBT.
Perhaps. But what I wouldn't think is that the WW2 tank had the firepower of a modestly sized nuke and the modern MBT was made of some kind of nuke-absorbing unobtanium that reduced the size of the blast to the equivalent of a WW2 shell.
A.T. wrote: Perhaps. But what I wouldn't think is that the WW2 tank had the firepower of a modestly sized nuke and the modern MBT was made of some kind of nuke-absorbing unobtanium that reduced the size of the blast to the equivalent of a WW2 shell.
The only way to defend against energy weapons at this scale is to absorb the energy and radiate it out later. This isn't conducive to creating the massive fireballs you seem to think we should be seeing.
Insectum7 wrote: So if the Death Star was so capable at engaging capital ships, why does it need to be protected by a whole fleet of star destroyers in Jedi?
To bait the trap... The whole point of everything at the DSII was to bait the rebels in and destroy them and in doing so turn Luke to the dark side. If there wasn't a fleet guarding it the rebels would have clued to something be wrong far sooner than they did.
Also, if Fighters aren't seen as a threat that leaves room for a Thunderhawk to deliver troops.
Thunderhawks don't make warp jumps so how is the ship launching them supposed to get within the Thunderhawk's limited range to launch such a strike?
Speaking of distance, how do these ships ever get close at all? Warp jumps drop you out some distance from a star and it can take weeks of sublight travel to reach a destination. Without being able to match the speed at which a Star Wars force can move around the galaxy 40k can't ever pick a good fight or force their foe to take a bad fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 00:21:09
That's a planetary defense Ion Cannon, not the Heavy Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons that are on an Imperial class. That's like using the guns of the Maginot line to define the ranges of the early Panzer tanks.
How do you know if the Hoth Ion Cannon is supposed to be any more or less powerful than a ship-mounted weapon?
A ship has concerns like movement, defense, and other things it has to take in to account. Planetary defenses ignore some of them so they can be improved.
Besides, just being in range doesn't prove an upper limit.
Canadian 5th wrote:
There have been rumors that movie, or even its trilogy, may be discounted due to its lack of positive reception. They are just rumors though, so they are probably not true and you should tell everyone you know. It also doesn't help that movie contradicts soooo much about what we've seen as canon from other movies that I have a hard time accepting its canonicity. Dark Forces carries more canon for me than that moldering pile of waste.
Disney won't retconn an entire movie trilogy due to butthurt fans on the internet.
Depends on if the stock of the IP goes down along with it.
Canadian 5th wrote:
So not anyone we're talking about.
The comment that spawned talk of orbits was that orbital ranges were low. I pointed out that they're actually fairly large if still small in terms of how vast space is.
My counter point is using our expectations and standards to make determinations in a universe that can literally park a mile long spaceship above a city as if it was at dock and fly fighters in space as if it had an atmosphere, is a little ridiculous.
Canadian 5th wrote:As I recall even R2-D2 shouldn't have been able to do it so a challenge seems an understatement.
Well, if Rebels are anything to go by, the Empire was really crap at updating their codes and systems from the Republic, and to our knowledge, R2's memory wasn't purged since it fled with Bail Organa.
Of course, that's assuming that manual punching of buttons wouldn't bring up the information or a Tech Priest/Marine couldn't pull it up, or just basic scans of the interior. If a ship could scan an interior of a Space Hulk, the Death Star would be downright orderly. It probably wouldn't even take that much brainpower to just push through it.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Ah, fandom numbers from biased sites. Soo accurate. Not to mention we have no idea how they'd interact with the Void Shields.
If they're so obviously biased, and Connor's numbers are no by any means biased, you should be able to disprove them by showing that either the math or the method is incorrect. Can you do this?
Evidence is in the shows, no matter what his numbers claim. Simply put, the power he implies just simply does not exist in the examples shown. I've read them a few times in SW and ST comparisons and they were laughable.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And it was more an example of maneuverability, which they could have easily avoided each other if they are as fast and nimble as you are suggesting.
Ships run aground when they can easily avoid it. This was a communications and navigational error and not an example showing they can't maneuver.
Ships run aground when they cannot see what is easily avoided IN TIME. This is why lighthouses exist, to give them warning and turn away before it becomes unavoidable.
This collision was not a communications error, it was a navigational error on the part of 3 different ships whose captains apparently could not do a simply job of avoiding each other. It's not like the one ISD followed the Falcon in its twisting path, even on a general vector. No, it ran in to two of its sister ships due to incompetence and lack of maneuverability.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Ah, so an ASSUMPTION... While I'll go as far as the weapon systems and basic normal space drives and such, this would be implying that the Warp is available in the Star Wars universe.
Why even make the assumption that on or both sides FTL systems don't work in a versus where that is literally required for them to fight one another?
How so? They can show up in a system and be stuck in that system until they can acquire the means from the other to move on, simple as that.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The Empire had independent reporters? That would be a first.
There were still independent systems even entire clusters like Hapes that were left alone. Unless entire systems didn't have their own press this alone proves the presence of independent reporters.
And they would be invited on to a military operation being performed by the Empire? There's another word for that which is far less kind, spies.
And you're assuming that any of these other nation-states had an independent press of their government. Hapes was a monarchy. The Cartel very much had a tight control of what media said about them in their space.
Canadian 5th wrote:
A galaxy spanning Imperium having as few ships as a nascent Rebellion? Riiiight.
That was never what I said... I said that the IoM would have trouble assembling their fleets due to the slow speed of warp travel and their unreliable FTL comms.
And I said that the IoM had a lot more ships and fleets than the Rebellion, which is what you were trying to counter.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Like they were at the Battle of Yavin and Endor, right? Keep in mind that the shield to keep in the atmosphere and ray shielding will not stop a rocket or a landing ship, and a blast door isn't as hard to get through as the hull armor.
Why wouldn't the hanger be covered by a proper shield when not launching or retrieving fighters?
Ray shielding would not prevent a ship from entering. That requires a different shielding system all together.
A better response would have been: In the first DS attack, only snub fighters were used, with no boarding shuttles. In the second DS attack, they relied on the shield projected from the planet, which the novelization claims to have had some capital ships and fighters bust themselves on when they realized it was a trap.
Of course, this still assumes that there is the physical shielding in place in such areas such as the planetary shield of Skariff.
Canadian 5th wrote:
So you want ME to prove YOUR argument? Interesting.
You've offered no evidence for your claims. So I'm going to do the same here..
You're the one claiming BFG ships were slow. I asked how you know that. You told me to figure it out. Your claim, please provide proof.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Actually, no. No turbo laser can crack the crust, they just melt and shatter what's on top of the crust. That was one of the reasons why Solo was so amazed to see the damage to Alderaan as it would take more than the whole fleet (outside DS-1) could accomplish.
The crust is the top layer of the planet's surface (leaving aside oceans and the atmosphere) so there isn't a layer over the crust to be merely melted and shattered. Unless you're taking crust cracking to mean blowing up a planet an ISD can indeed crack some crust with authority before melting a planet down into a many meters thick layer of molten slag.
I'm well aware of what a planet's crust is, which is why I was using it as an example. Some forms of Exterminatus crack the crust at a point causing a massive tectonic upheaval quite visible from high orbit to destroy all the life on the planet.
The most we've seen a force like an ISD do is destroy a city and open its ground up to the sky, and even that was Legends.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Okay, let's look at the references.
The first attempt was considered a failure, leaving only the KS-series as the only combat droids that the Empire used.
The Dark Trooper project being during the Galactic Civil War is a mobile video game. Those are often non-canon, and only had the cyborg Dark Troopers, not the total battle droid.
Converting them to a droid is listed in the Mandalorian, which is 9 ABY. and in Dawn of Rebellion RPG book, but doesn't give a page reference or a time stamp.
It doesn't provide any quotes as to when the decision to go pure droid again was made.
Palpatine started the program, he very well might have asked to have it sped up, or he may have returned to older technology or just press-ganged a bunch of citizens into the fight. The method is immaterial the fact is the Empire can crank out the material needed for war extremely quickly and wouldn't hesitate to use droids as required.
The argument about the Empire cranking out materiel was never in question. It was that they would turn to using droids under Palpatine's command. So far, we have one failed project which may not have even reached Palpatine's ears and another project which may have had no input from Palpatine whatsoever.
There are hints that the reason Palpatine was the way he was in many things is that he was amassing Dark Force power the same way that Darth Vitiate/Valkorion was by promoting death and terror. This was why the Republic used Clones instead of droids themselves. Droids do not have a presence in the Force, so would not support this. This is just speculation, however.
Any droid force would be purely local on a Moff's or Grand Admiral's authority and not on Palpatine's order with the information presently at hand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 00:48:48
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Canadian 5th wrote: The only way to defend against energy weapons at this scale is to absorb the energy and radiate it out later. This isn't conducive to creating the massive fireballs you seem to think we should be seeing.
Fantastic, but this wasn't a blaster it was a missile. And it created a fireball.
Insectum7 wrote: So if the Death Star was so capable at engaging capital ships, why does it need to be protected by a whole fleet of star destroyers in Jedi?
To bait the trap... The whole point of everything at the DSII was to bait the rebels in and destroy them and in doing so turn Luke to the dark side. If there wasn't a fleet guarding it the rebels would have clued to something be wrong far sooner than they did.
Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
Also, if Fighters aren't seen as a threat that leaves room for a Thunderhawk to deliver troops.
Thunderhawks don't make warp jumps so how is the ship launching them supposed to get within the Thunderhawk's limited range to launch such a strike?
Speaking of distance, how do these ships ever get close at all? Warp jumps drop you out some distance from a star and it can take weeks of sublight travel to reach a destination. Without being able to match the speed at which a Star Wars force can move around the galaxy 40k can't ever pick a good fight or force their foe to take a bad fight.
Because the ships can still close to within Thunderhawk range anyways. If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 00:51:22
Insectum7 wrote: So if the Death Star was so capable at engaging capital ships, why does it need to be protected by a whole fleet of star destroyers in Jedi?
To bait the trap... The whole point of everything at the DSII was to bait the rebels in and destroy them and in doing so turn Luke to the dark side. If there wasn't a fleet guarding it the rebels would have clued to something be wrong far sooner than they did.
Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
The funny thing is that they were simply there to hold the Rebels in place. That is literally what Admiral Piett says when they are in position.
The purpose of going point blank range with the Star Destroyers was the fact that they had nothing else to lose, and they might get caught up in the cross fire.
Insectum7 wrote: If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
Which is funny because all of the Resistance's ships were in VISUAL range, and they weren't close enough for any of their guns to do any damage till they ran out of fuel and stopped in the middle of space.
10 light minutes is past the sun, which is a tiny disk to us here on earth. A capital ship at those sizes wouldn't even be a reflection confused as a star at that range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 00:58:00
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Charistoph wrote: A ship has concerns like movement, defense, and other things it has to take in to account. Planetary defenses ignore some of them so they can be improved.
So prove that this is the case with the Hoth cannon. Go dive wookiepedia and tell me just how much stronger than a ship-mounted weapon it's supposed to be.
Besides, just being in range doesn't prove an upper limit.
yes, but the ICS does that. It's around 10 light minutes for a clone wars era ship.
Of course, that's assuming that manual punching of buttons wouldn't bring up the information or a Tech Priest/Marine couldn't pull it up, or just basic scans of the interior. If a ship could scan an interior of a Space Hulk, the Death Star would be downright orderly. It probably wouldn't even take that much brainpower to just push through it.
Push through to where exactly?
Evidence is in the shows, no matter what his numbers claim. Simply put, the power he implies just simply does not exist in the examples shown. I've read them a few times in SW and ST comparisons and they were laughable.
Connor is the one who did the 40k numbers I posted which you dismissed as biased. Did you even look at any of his work before dismissing it?
Ships run aground when they cannot see what is easily avoided IN TIME. This is why lighthouses exist, to give them warning and turn away before it becomes unavoidable.
Tell that to all the ships that run aground due to navigation errors in clear weather then...
How so? They can show up in a system and be stuck in that system until they can acquire the means from the other to move on, simple as that.
Okay. That's not how any versus debate ever works though and you haven't even shown that hyperspace shouldn't work in the 40k universe so...
And they would be invited on to a military operation being performed by the Empire? There's another word for that which is far less kind, spies.
They wouldn't need to be. If a freaky portal shows up or another galaxy drops into view suddenly people are going to notice.
And you're assuming that any of these other nation-states had an independent press of their government. Hapes was a monarchy. The Cartel very much had a tight control of what media said about them in their space.
It's free of the Empire's meddling.
And I said that the IoM had a lot more ships and fleets than the Rebellion, which is what you were trying to counter.
They can have all the ships they want if they can't move them anywhere useful they can't win a war. That's the point I'm making.
Ray shielding would not prevent a ship from entering. That requires a different shielding system all together.
Where did I mention a specific type of shielding?
A better response would have been: In the first DS attack, only snub fighters were used, with no boarding shuttles. In the second DS attack, they relied on the shield projected from the planet, which the novelization claims to have had some capital ships and fighters bust themselves on when they realized it was a trap.
You literally see them crash into it in the movie. No need for any reading of the novelization.
You're the one claiming BFG ships were slow. I asked how you know that. You told me to figure it out. Your claim, please provide proof.
BFG fleets take weeks to transit from where they enter a system to the planet they wish to reach. By Star Wars standards those ships are slow.
I'm well aware of what a planet's crust is, which is why I was using it as an example. Some forms of Exterminatus crack the crust at a point causing a massive tectonic upheaval quite visible from high orbit to destroy all the life on the planet.
The most we've seen a force like an ISD do is destroy a city and open its ground up to the sky, and even that was Legends.
Base Delta Zero isn't legends my friend.
The argument about the Empire cranking out materiel was never in question. It was that they would turn to using droids under Palpatine's command. So far, we have one failed project which may not have even reached Palpatine's ears and another project which may have had no input from Palpatine whatsoever.
There are hints that the reason Palpatine was the way he was in many things is that he was amassing Dark Force power the same way that Darth Vitiate/Valkorion was by promoting death and terror. This was why the Republic used Clones instead of droids themselves. Droids do not have a presence in the Force, so would not support this. This is just speculation, however.
Any droid force would be purely local on a Moff's or Grand Admiral's authority and not on Palpatine's order with the information presently at hand.
Prove it.
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Insectum7 wrote: Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
Because making the shot harder is always valuable. Also, did we ever see the DSII miss a shot?
Because the ships can still close to within Thunderhawk range anyways. If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
The same goes for any attack launched by the IoM fleet so... Also, Turbolaser speeds are, complicated, on-screen they always take between 1 and 3 seconds to hit in space regardless of distance. So it's likely they fly even faster at longer ranges, somehow. This is what the on-screen evidence gives us anyway.
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Charistoph wrote: Which is funny because all of the Resistance's ships were in VISUAL range, and they weren't close enough for any of their guns to do any damage till they ran out of fuel and stopped in the middle of space.
That chase and the really dumb siege weapons that arc in space is why I really dislike that movie.
10 light minutes is past the sun, which is a tiny disk to us here on earth. A capital ship at those sizes wouldn't even be a reflection confused as a star at that range.
That speaks to pretty good sensors, doesn't it?
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A.T. wrote: Fantastic, but this wasn't a blaster it was a missile. And it created a fireball.
What was the warhead in it? What fired it? Did the warhead detonate properly? You don't know and thus can't disprove any examples of higher firepower by cherrypicking examples of lower firepower.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/03/18 01:05:05
Charistoph wrote: A ship has concerns like movement, defense, and other things it has to take in to account. Planetary defenses ignore some of them so they can be improved.
So prove that this is the case with the Hoth cannon. Go dive wookiepedia and tell me just how much stronger than a ship-mounted weapon it's supposed to be.
It was powerful enough to knock out an Imperial class with a shot or two. I never saw a Star Destroyer do anything like that with a couple of shots. If they could, Return of the Jedi would have been a LOT shorter. Heck, even the Falcon's escape from Hoth would have been shorter.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Besides, just being in range doesn't prove an upper limit.
yes, but the ICS does that. It's around 10 light minutes for a clone wars era ship.
The bolt may reach that far, but it loses its effectiveness and its ability to hit is pitiful.
10 light minutes is looking just past the sun from our spot on Earth, and we couldn't see a Star Wars capital ship with the mark 1 eyeball to even confuse it as a star. And then I guess the First Order's weapons really degraded when they couldn't hurt another capital ship in visual range, but a Venator could beyond visible range.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Of course, that's assuming that manual punching of buttons wouldn't bring up the information or a Tech Priest/Marine couldn't pull it up, or just basic scans of the interior. If a ship could scan an interior of a Space Hulk, the Death Star would be downright orderly. It probably wouldn't even take that much brainpower to just push through it.
Push through to where exactly?
We're talking about boarding terminators and I specifically referenced Space Hulk. How much of a diagram do you need to understand that the purpose would be to plant charges to disable the station, at the least?
Canadian 5th wrote:
Evidence is in the shows, no matter what his numbers claim. Simply put, the power he implies just simply does not exist in the examples shown. I've read them a few times in SW and ST comparisons and they were laughable.
Connor is the one who did the 40k numbers I posted which you dismissed as biased. Did you even look at any of his work before dismissing it?
I've seen quite a few of them, and they do not match the canon that it is based on.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Ships run aground when they cannot see what is easily avoided IN TIME. This is why lighthouses exist, to give them warning and turn away before it becomes unavoidable.
Tell that to all the ships that run aground due to navigation errors in clear weather then...
Maybe you should take some lessons on nautical navigation first.
Canadian 5th wrote:
How so? They can show up in a system and be stuck in that system until they can acquire the means from the other to move on, simple as that.
Okay. That's not how any versus debate ever works though and you haven't even shown that hyperspace shouldn't work in the 40k universe so...
You haven't shown that hyperspace could work in the 40K universe. At present there is no evidence that it would.
And where is this rule about how versus debates are supposed to be done that laid down an assumption that all FTL would work normally in each other's universe? That wasn't established when this began.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And they would be invited on to a military operation being performed by the Empire? There's another word for that which is far less kind, spies.
They wouldn't need to be. If a freaky portal shows up or another galaxy drops into view suddenly people are going to notice.
A freaky portal about the size of a moon, let's say? Gee, that could be as hard to hide as a space station the size of a moon.
Now, another galaxy showing up right next door, that would be different, but that wasn't really an established criteria.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And you're assuming that any of these other nation-states had an independent press of their government. Hapes was a monarchy. The Cartel very much had a tight control of what media said about them in their space.
It's free of the Empire's meddling.
But not free of their own nor free to meddle in the Empire.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And I said that the IoM had a lot more ships and fleets than the Rebellion, which is what you were trying to counter.
They can have all the ships they want if they can't move them anywhere useful they can't win a war. That's the point I'm making.
They can move them somewhere useful, especially if there is only one system under contention.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Ray shielding would not prevent a ship from entering. That requires a different shielding system all together.
Where did I mention a specific type of shielding?
Because Star Wars specifies specific types of shielding, ever since the first movie.
Canadian 5th wrote:
A better response would have been: In the first DS attack, only snub fighters were used, with no boarding shuttles. In the second DS attack, they relied on the shield projected from the planet, which the novelization claims to have had some capital ships and fighters bust themselves on when they realized it was a trap.
You literally see them crash into it in the movie. No need for any reading of the novelization.
I never have, and I looked after the novelization.
Canadian 5th wrote:
You're the one claiming BFG ships were slow. I asked how you know that. You told me to figure it out. Your claim, please provide proof.
BFG fleets take weeks to transit from where they enter a system to the planet they wish to reach. By Star Wars standards those ships are slow.
Star Wars ships also drop out of hyperspace in orbit of another planet.
Canadian 5th wrote:
I'm well aware of what a planet's crust is, which is why I was using it as an example. Some forms of Exterminatus crack the crust at a point causing a massive tectonic upheaval quite visible from high orbit to destroy all the life on the planet.
The most we've seen a force like an ISD do is destroy a city and open its ground up to the sky, and even that was Legends.
Base Delta Zero isn't legends my friend.
Oh, which movie or tv show was that shown in again, then?
As a side note, Wookiepedia still only describes it as destroying the surface, not cracking the crust. At best, it might melt the upper crust.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The argument about the Empire cranking out materiel was never in question. It was that they would turn to using droids under Palpatine's command. So far, we have one failed project which may not have even reached Palpatine's ears and another project which may have had no input from Palpatine whatsoever.
There are hints that the reason Palpatine was the way he was in many things is that he was amassing Dark Force power the same way that Darth Vitiate/Valkorion was by promoting death and terror. This was why the Republic used Clones instead of droids themselves. Droids do not have a presence in the Force, so would not support this. This is just speculation, however.
Any droid force would be purely local on a Moff's or Grand Admiral's authority and not on Palpatine's order with the information presently at hand.
Prove it.
Prove which?
The only evidence we have of the Dark Troopers involved under Palpatine's command is a mobile game, and that was the cyborg model. The use of droids is outside the sphere of Palpatine's organization, so it would only be under local authority that any modifications were made, like a vastly superior tie fighter being built under Thrawn, or the Dark Troopers under Moff Gideon. If you have something else, please present it.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Canadian 5th wrote: 1) What was the warhead in it?
2) What fired it?
3) Did the warhead detonate properly?
4) You don't know and thus can't disprove any examples of higher firepower by cherrypicking examples of lower firepower.
1) According to Saxton something with the explosive force of a modest nuclear weapon.
2) Four seperate LAATs in two different scenes. Figures taken from Saxtons calculations for the LAATs weapons.
3) Detonations apeared consistent across all four visible impacts.
4) Video provided gives (to my knowledge) all examples of this weapon in all official films released up to the point that Saxton calculated his figures.
The point being that this scene is the only primary source. Saxton watched this and said 'boom, nuclear firepower baby', hence my original suggestion that his work be taken with a deathstar sized pinch of salt.
Direct from the book "100-kiloton explosion...". Incredible Cross Sections, AOTC, by Curtis Saxton, 2002, ISBN-10 : 0751337447
And with that I duck out of the thread. Once around the pitch chasing the goalposts was quite enough.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/18 16:53:13
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
Because making the shot harder is always valuable. Also, did we ever see the DSII miss a shot?
No misses, but 10 km and several million km are pretty different animals when talking about accuracy.
Because the ships can still close to within Thunderhawk range anyways. If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
The same goes for any attack launched by the IoM fleet so... Also, Turbolaser speeds are, complicated, on-screen they always take between 1 and 3 seconds to hit in space regardless of distance. So it's likely they fly even faster at longer ranges, somehow. This is what the on-screen evidence gives us anyway.
All sources I find are that a blaster "bolt" is far slower than the speed of light. So I find the idea of pinpoint accuracy against an unpredictably moving target at astronomical distances to be pretty suspect. And the idea that they somehow go faster the further they have to travel. . . Ehhhh. . . Gonna need some better sourcing for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 09:53:47
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
That's what "scanners" are for Where are the big energy readings coming from? Let's go blow those up. While were there let's see if we can find anything else that might be important and blow that up as well. Marines do boarding raids on tyranid bioships... Not a lot of imperial standardisation there.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Canadian 5th wrote: 1) What was the warhead in it?
2) What fired it?
3) Did the warhead detonate properly?
4) You don't know and thus can't disprove any examples of higher firepower by cherrypicking examples of lower firepower.
1) According to Saxton something with the explosive force of a modest nuclear weapon.
2) Four seperate LAATs in two different scenes. Figures taken from Saxtons calculations for the LAATs weapons.
3) Detonations apeared consistent across all four visible impacts.
4) Video provided gives (to my knowledge) all examples of this weapon in all official films released up to the point that Saxton calculated his figures.
The point being that this scene is the only primary source. Saxton watched this and said 'boom, nuclear firepower baby', hence my original suggestion that his work be taken with a deathstar sized pinch of salt.
Direct from the book "100-kiloton explosion...". Incredible Cross Sections, AOTC, by Curtis Saxton, 2002, ISBN-10 : 0751337447
And with that I duck out of the thread. Once around the pitch chasing the goalposts was quite enough.
If you're talking about 100 kiloton weapons it helps to remember that the hiroshima bomb was only ~15 kilotons.
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
That's what "scanners" are for Where are the big energy readings coming from? Let's go blow those up. While were there let's see if we can find anything else that might be important and blow that up as well. Marines do boarding raids on tyranid bioships... Not a lot of imperial standardisation there.
The Marines could also eat some brains to gather intel.
Aren't ISDs 1.6 Kilometers in length compared to the 5 or so kilometers for a Lunar Class Cruiser in most depictions of them. Ignoring the outliers Imperium ships should hilariously out mass their Star Wars counterparts until you end up at the outliers again.
Because an ISD is a capital ship for the Empire, it is a Battleship by role even though it is called a destroyer. It has Carrack Class cruisers for support, along with Arquitens class light cruisers, and their various light craft like Raiders and the like to handle star fighters. SSDs quite frankly have no real life counter part, save for sticking Yamato or Iowa into predreadnought battles.
The 40k Counter parts are significantly larger. A Cobra Class Destroyer is 1.2 kilometers long, and carries a set of torpedo tubes and macro cannons. Its very similar to a WW1 era Torpedo boat. Sword Frigates are about the size of a Star Destroyer, potentially more massive but really are counter parts to Carracks or Arquitens. I'd say that 40k's size advantage is staggering for these lower end craft. A Lunar Class cruiser about 5 kms in length is far larger than a Star Destroyer and is in the same weight class as a Lucrehulk or a Praetor 2 class Battlecruiser.
40k Battleships such as the retribution or the Emperor or a Space Marine Battlebarge are more akin to a Bellator Star Dreadnought in terms of size. Yet in roles the two are different, Battleship vs IRL Battlecruiser essentially.
Operating under the assumption that these guys engage each other even 40k's escorts will register as capital ships to Star Wars Admirals. That is something to take into consideration. A Space Marine Battlebarge to the vast majority of Star Wars fleets would be considered a super capital. I'd even argue that for some of the "frigate, cruiser and corvettes" in Star Wars 40k torpedoes would be unwieldly weaponry restricting them to use of macro weapons and lances. Boarding actions from the majority of 40k factions would be devastating against Empire Storm Troopers would be hard to beat off simply because star wars is a character driven narrative compared to 40ks Wargame base which means that outside fringe things like Dark Troopers or B3 Battledroids very few Star Wars troops are in the same weight class as Space Marines. 40k would dominate the enemy capital ships and outside of the largest super capitals star wars lacks the capacity to engage them on equal terms. Executor vs Gloriana is a bit of a toss up, simply because while I'm certain a Gloriana can take it in a fight, I'm uncertain if it would be a 1v1 battle.
Yet Star Wars has two undeniable advantages, production and speed. Star Wars can undeniably churn out more ships than 40k can, save for Tyranids and maybe orks. Those are outside the scope of this however. A few broadsides from a battlebarge should devastate the vast majority of Empire Ships if not simply destroy them. Assuming the tech is on a similar level which is essential for this discussion otherwise we run into a silly Lensman/Culture type stomp and where's the fun in that? I honestly think that the Empire would have to swarm Imperium battle groups with what amounts to an escort spam. It doesn't help that such vessels in the 40k size range have weapons aimed at killing ships roughly the same size as them.
The Deathstar being a super weapon will likely be a difficult target. Its clearly in the same weight class as the Ork Attack Moons from War of the Beast. Outside of World engines it is very much outside the norm for most 40k fleet actions save for assaults on space hulks. Unescorted the Death Star gets blown up and 40k ships are probably outside the scope of what the secondary batteries of that battlestation are equipped to fight. The Deathstar definitely spear any normal 40k ship with its super laser but it will probably find the majority of their fleet assets remarkably durable to its secondaries. Massed strikecraft and boarding actions would be required to kill it, I wouldn't be surprised if they just pulled a World Engine on it, ram it with a ship and then board. The Deathstar 2 was able to withstand the Executor crashing into it, according to a novelization, the Executor started to reverse out of that gash but was destroyed when the battlestation detonated.
Then again, in a boarding action containing Terminators and Space Marines is probably beyond the capabilities of Storm troopers. In addition, such actions would only be needed if one was assault Deathstars or SSDs
I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
Where are the big energy readings coming from? Let's go blow those up. While were there let's see if we can find anything else that might be important and blow that up as well. Marines do boarding raids on tyranid bioships... Not a lot of imperial standardisation there.
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