Switch Theme:

Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





On the bright side, I've never assembled a GW kit like that before with the instructions open on my lap and staring carefully at the sprue to make sure I cut out the right bits. With SMs I would have chopped out all the bits and put them together however, whereas with the AS the process was way more careful since specific bits only fit with other specific bits. I'm deeply envious of how well the models fit together though.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 warmaster21 wrote:
though oddly enough the heavy weapon/backpacks in the sob box is different from the Retributor box, square/round peg/holes to be just enough of an donkey-cave to make it harder to mix.

It is a shame that the only way to get the sister with the flamethrower and burnt corpse was the launch battleforce that only came with 1.


its funny because I specifically recall anger that that sister was going to be mandatory in every box of sisters.

Weird to me that GW would cut the sprues for that box and then not offer it as a SC box ala the SC Chaos Space marines/SC Phobos Marines bundles.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor





 Da Boss wrote:
I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


For the love of Tzeentch's n-dimensional scrotum, this is where we are with this stupid Marine crap: We've gone past angry and are at resigned, broken depression edging to the accepting fifth stage of grief.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Maybe that is the best place to be right now.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


AoS is a game defined by extreme kill combos of stacked buffs

You can take 160 points of skinks and turn them into terminators with access to like 8 different stacking buffs.

I mean, I think 40k dropped the ball hard on the dark angel release with power balance, but AoS is languishing in the seraphon dark ages with no end in sight


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think AoS shows us what 40k would be like if Space Marines weren't so popular.
It very much seemed like Stormcast were set up to be Fantasy Space Marines. The approach in lore, models, and advertising very closely followed what GW had been doing with Space Marines. Their release wave matched Primaris very closely.

But Stormcast failed to capture the audience in the way GW perhaps hoped, and so they have diversified their releases.

It's actually in GW's interest for every player to play the same faction. Because that way every kit GW puts out to that faction sells to everyone.
Why spend design resources making a Dark Eldar sculpt and sell to 5% of the playerbase when you can spend less resources (due to commonality of sculpts) and sell to 50% of the playerbase?


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/02 01:43:30


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Yeaaahhh... that's not an accurate depiction of the current circumstances in AoS.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

stratigo wrote:


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


They've always loved elves.
•High Elves
•Wood Elves
•Dark Elves
•Eldar
•Dark Eldar
•Harlequins
•Yukari
•Idoneth
•Luminith Realm Lord's
•and to a degree Daughters of Kaine

Since the Lumiith are brand new & essentially only have about 1/2 an actual army, + GWs love of Elves, is it any wonder theyre being expanded upon a mere year after launch?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


For the love of Tzeentch's n-dimensional scrotum, this is where we are with this stupid Marine crap: We've gone past angry and are at resigned, broken depression edging to the accepting fifth stage of grief.


I mean, having played marines, I'd feel more like an utter fool keeping up with them now with the endless release cycle. I only have so much hobby fund. But more importantly, only so much hobby time. Even under covid I am still working through a tremendous backlog of models


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
stratigo wrote:


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


They've always loved elves.
•High Elves
•Wood Elves
•Dark Elves
•Eldar
•Dark Eldar
•Harlequins
•Yukari
•Idoneth
•Luminith Realm Lord's
•and to a degree Daughters of Kaine

Since the Lumiith are brand new & essentially only have about 1/2 an actual army, + GWs love of Elves, is it any wonder theyre being expanded upon a mere year after launch?


I mean, it is, because this is something GW has only ever done for their flagships before, marines and SCE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeaaahhh... that's not an accurate depiction of the current circumstances in AoS.


Buff stacked skinks and Kroak are the meta lead currently.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/02 04:11:16


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






stratigo wrote:
 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


For the love of Tzeentch's n-dimensional scrotum, this is where we are with this stupid Marine crap: We've gone past angry and are at resigned, broken depression edging to the accepting fifth stage of grief.


I mean, having played marines, I'd feel more like an utter fool keeping up with them now with the endless release cycle. I only have so much hobby fund. But more importantly, only so much hobby time. Even under covid I am still working through a tremendous backlog of models


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
stratigo wrote:


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


They've always loved elves.
•High Elves
•Wood Elves
•Dark Elves
•Eldar
•Dark Eldar
•Harlequins
•Yukari
•Idoneth
•Luminith Realm Lord's
•and to a degree Daughters of Kaine

Since the Lumiith are brand new & essentially only have about 1/2 an actual army, + GWs love of Elves, is it any wonder theyre being expanded upon a mere year after launch?


I mean, it is, because this is something GW has only ever done for their flagships before, marines and SCE.

^No joke!

It's ridiculous seeing the cycle of units being released and pushed/nerfed. I'm glad I have a very useable standing army where all I have to do is a couple weapon swaps to adjust. All I feel I have to do for 9th is paint a few more Multimelta dudes, and I've had spares of them kicking around for years.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nurglitch wrote:
On the bright side, I've never assembled a GW kit like that before with the instructions open on my lap and staring carefully at the sprue to make sure I cut out the right bits. With SMs I would have chopped out all the bits and put them together however, whereas with the AS the process was way more careful since specific bits only fit with other specific bits. I'm deeply envious of how well the models fit together though.


I build my GW models much like how you would open the lament configuration from Hellraiser. Naked and sweaty in a dark room by candlelight, sweat pouring down my brow because I may arm them wrong. As I complete the squad assembly GW workers begin to brick up my windows and cut me off from the outside world. Then the model is done, but it moves and chains shoot out of it. Smashing all of my models to pieces because I made them wrong, GW already changed their legal load out from what was in the build instructions. Then they drag me to hades. It's pretty rough building GW models these days.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I just want a redo of the Craftworld model range to actually bring them into the 21st century.

Why is that so much to ask?
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






I don't mean this to sound as snarky as it may come across because I genuinely believe that Eldar deserve a big update release, but just like sisters of battle, who's fans were also very vocal (and they deserved their update also), my main motivation is so I don't have to keeping reading posts by (justifiably frustrated) Eldar fans saying they want an update....

And lets get guard infantry updated after as well, then all finecast models get updates, then marines can have a release again... Tyranids still look great so don't need it, and Tau don't and will never deserve it for being a dirty boring gun line faction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/02 11:28:35


My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Was there ever a time, where a faction was in a bad state, and its player collectively decided that they don't want any rules or model support ?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

The playerbase has never collectively decided anything so you've rather set us up to fail there
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 kirotheavenger wrote:
The playerbase has never collectively decided anything so you've rather set us up to fail there


I ain't sure about that, I don't think there is many people, who actually play the game, that think that tau right now are good right now. I think that even people who don't like tau and tau players in general, can't say the army is good right now.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.


Yep, when I first started playing the game, my friend who played Tau introduced them as "a faction with two alien races working together, one is good at shooting and bad at melee, and one is good at melee and bad at shooting" - referring to kroot and tau.

But Kroot only lost models and all new models were just bigger and bigger tau things, to the point where there's just not anything to the kroot and the scale of the game has completely utterly outstripped them and their monster thing is equal to like one space marine intercessor in melee.

Personally - if you asked me - I would have reworked the game a bit in 9th to allow all factions to participate in all phases. Retool the Psychic Phase into the Command Phase and use that as a way to squeeze boring auras out of the game, and making the normal job of various HQ units to be doing special actions in the Command Phase right alongside psykers doing their thing. Tau have Fireblades, Commanders, Ethereals and Shapers, all of which could be doing different stuff in various phases, and maybe Mont'ka could be retooled to something like "units affected by a Montka order forgo their shooting in the shooting phase, and instead all their weapons become the type "Melee" during the Fight phase of this turn - allowing Tau to actually charge in and turn over objectives.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






stratigo wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeaaahhh... that's not an accurate depiction of the current circumstances in AoS.


Buff stacked skinks and Kroak are the meta lead currently.
Precisely; it puts them in the lead because other armies can't do it. AoS, like 40k, is not defined by which army is top of the tourney rankings--many players confusion and frustration with the state of affairs comes from their belief that such is the case. It is much more complicated than that.

After all, it isn't like all of these new marine models are dominating the meta. A lot of them are pretty tame all things considered.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
AoS, like 40k, is not defined by which army is top of the tourney rankings--many players confusion and frustration with the state of affairs comes from their belief that such is the case. It is much more complicated than that.

After all, it isn't like all of these new marine models are dominating the meta. A lot of them are pretty tame all things considered.


Indeed, we're not in a balance state where Marines are utterly dominating the top competitive tables anymore. In fact, thinking about it, top competitive tables are probably where Marines are the least problematic; it's everywhere else and in so many other ways that they're a problem.

After all, what kind of final-strawed my hope/patience that 40K was going to get any better was the Hounds of Morkai/Butterball Turret release, and it's definitely not because those two units were going to be tournament winners.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.



See, this is some truth. Tau used to feel so much better as a really mobile, mechanized and suit driven force that felt very good to use even if they could be super annoying used correctly.

The boring gun line Tau isn't all they've ever been, it's just what they've been pressed to become. Much like Guard aren't always a boring gun line but some army factions and unit selections shoved them to be a static gun line. It's like motion blur in video games, very few if any players like it but all designers think it's amazingly cool to put in. In this case almost all players find gunlines boring and dreadful but then the designers make some potent or the only good build be a static gun line. It's really quite perplexing.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

I just want a redo of the Craftworld model range to actually bring them into the 21st century.

And you really mean 21st century?
They live in a different spot not traceable by mankind.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.



See, this is some truth. Tau used to feel so much better as a really mobile, mechanized and suit driven force that felt very good to use even if they could be super annoying used correctly.

The boring gun line Tau isn't all they've ever been, it's just what they've been pressed to become. Much like Guard aren't always a boring gun line but some army factions and unit selections shoved them to be a static gun line. It's like motion blur in video games, very few if any players like it but all designers think it's amazingly cool to put in. In this case almost all players find gunlines boring and dreadful but then the designers make some potent or the only good build be a static gun line. It's really quite perplexing.

I totally agree.

I think the reason the writers keep creating gunlines is that they work under the mistaken ideal that movement is very important to the game. So they think reducing mobility is a strong tradeoff for more firepower. In reality it's not much of a tradeoff, and so you get abilities and rules allowing very high firepower for just staying still.

I stopped playing my Tau shortly after 6th edition, because they weren't the army I loved anymore. I finally lost hope in waiting for them to be restored and sold them over christmas (partly driven by a house move, and the fact the models don't meet my current painting ability )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/03 08:57:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I hear that, I still have some Tau but haven't added to them in a loooonnnggggg time. They ever bring back the mobile strike force feel for them and I'm all over it.
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block





I just want to not feel embarassed when i field my crafwolrd army vs a SM

seriusly they look like they are from two different games
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 InVerno wrote:
I just want to not feel embarassed when i field my crafwolrd army vs a SM

seriusly they look like they are from two different games


They are. One is likely from 8th/9th edition. The other is from a much better version of the game.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

My GK and BA are on hold for different reasons.
I'll wait for the new GK codex and BA doesn't interest me that much atm.

I'm focusing on the new Necrons where I have been rather successful in tourneys in the 6th and 7th ed.
Beating Marines with Necrons is ambitious but doable.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






 kirotheavenger wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.



See, this is some truth. Tau used to feel so much better as a really mobile, mechanized and suit driven force that felt very good to use even if they could be super annoying used correctly.

The boring gun line Tau isn't all they've ever been, it's just what they've been pressed to become. Much like Guard aren't always a boring gun line but some army factions and unit selections shoved them to be a static gun line. It's like motion blur in video games, very few if any players like it but all designers think it's amazingly cool to put in. In this case almost all players find gunlines boring and dreadful but then the designers make some potent or the only good build be a static gun line. It's really quite perplexing.

I totally agree.

I think the reason the writers keep creating gunlines is that they work under the mistaken ideal that movement is very important to the game. So they think reducing mobility is a strong tradeoff for more firepower. In reality it's not much of a tradeoff, and so you get abilities and rules allowing very high firepower for just staying still.

I stopped playing my Tau shortly after 6th edition, because they weren't the army I loved anymore. I finally lost hope in waiting for them to be restored and sold them over christmas (partly driven by a house move, and the fact the models don't meet my current painting ability )


I sold my tau for exactly the same reasons and at exactly the same time (Xmas 2020), I tried playing them a bit for 7th ed, but never played them in 8th (saviour protocols has been the worst rule of all 8th ed). I don't think I will ever regret selling my Tau, the models are just horrible by the current standards. Even the recent models, I mean, at this point the whole Tau concept is just horrible, rules AND models. Unlike GSC (who I also own), who need the complete re-write for the rules concept, but have decent models

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.

So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.

I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The smaller board size has indeed turned out to be the problem people were afraid of.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

Tygre wrote:
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

40k is designed to be played with 500-1000 points, they just made 2000 points standard while decreasing the points per models over time to sell more models but the rules do not really support it because their basic design is with less models in mind

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: