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2021/03/17 22:16:57
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Just gonna point out that when people refer to scaling, they don't mean the overall size of the model but the difference in sized between heads/hands etc. Infinity and 40k have the same size of models, but they don't fit together visually because of the heroic scale 40k uses
2021/03/17 22:36:23
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Yeah lets talk about just HOW OLD eldar are for a second. Let me yarn you a yarn about how I got into 40k.
I first got into 40k late in middle school, in 8th grade, when two friends of mine wanted to split the brand new fifth ed starter. My dad, in a vain attempt to get me to not spend all my money on this game, gave me his old 3rd ed space wolf army to add to the AOBR starter so I could play gmaes with my friends.
Every unit in that army: Bjorn, a dreadnought, fenrisian wolves, grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, and ragnar, both got a new kit AND were soft-obsoleted by primaris marines.
When the time came to waste my money on the hobby, I looked into the factions, and loved the idea of eldar and the fluff of eldar, but man...the units I liked from Dawn of War were all ancient, expensive, monopose metals, and they looked way jankier than they did in the game. So I went with Necrons. In middle school and early high school i went through a hardcore 'zombie apocalypse' phase, where I imagined I'd save everyone in the zombie apocalypse and have lots of cool guns and all that dumb gak half my country never grew out of apparently.
All the models I owned for that army: Warriors, scarabs, immortals, spyders, wraiths, monoliths, destroyers - have all gotten new kits, 100% of them.
Then after I left for college, when I had all that saved up money from the summers I worked to get myself spending money, welp it was HIGH TIME TO WASTE MORE MONEY ON 40K WASNT IT??? Seeing as I moved away from my old playgroup in which one of my four 40k playing friends played orks, I bought orks! I went with speed freeks since I felt like I could paint the red with yellow squiggles.
Since owning that army, a huge number of new dedicated speed freek kits were released.
Then I grew a beard, started running low on feth it money, and got into a big ol 40k hipster phase where I started and got bored of several small hobby projects, basically all kitbashed. I made some Thousand Sons chaos marines, I played Space Marine and went down a lore wiki rabbit hole about Skitarii so I bought some guardsmen and kitbashed them with 'cron bits to make them Skitarii, then later when I went down another wikihole I reclassified them as a Genestealer cult and added the minis from Space Hulk that I already owned to them.
Since owning those, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cults, and Skitarii have all been released as fully fleshed out official model ranges.
after THAT GW finally released an eldar race that wasn't dark eldar (which I used to think playing would...make me gay, or something? I was embarrassed about them, I was like a freshman in college, sue me.) and which wasn't janky ancient cone hats: Harlequins! I know, the spiky elves I was worried were gay, so I bought the sparkly unicorn clowns in spandex. *shrug*.
I graduated college, got a job, met a girlfriend, bought a car, got engaged, moved three times, got married, bought a house, lived through covid, planned for my first kid...
And the eldar miniatures I looked at in disappointment IN EIGHTH FREAKING GRADE are still the EXACT SAME eldar miniatures I look at now.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/03/18 00:07:44
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
2021/03/18 00:17:39
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
drbored wrote: We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
I wouldn't say impressive, more along the lines of insulting....
2021/03/18 00:53:03
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
drbored wrote: We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
AoS and 40k might aswell be entirely different companies.
Those making the decision what to make for AoS are clearly not the same people who make that choice for 40k and all evidence points to the 2 systems barely, if ever, communicating with eachother.
2021/03/18 05:56:25
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
NinthMusketeer wrote: As an AoS player I hope it stays that way. Which says something on it's own I think.
Anyways maybe a different thread for 3d printing discussion?
Well kinda. It's pretty relevant to the motivating concern of this discussion: SM releases are over the top, many cool armies just aren't getting anywhere like near enough releases, and all the while technology is eroding the assumptions that GW's business model is predicated on. 3D printing's flourishing in the hobby is an indictment of GW's pricing and neglect, as much as a reflection of new tech.
2021/03/18 13:32:37
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
2021/03/18 15:53:28
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No one was complaining about AoS getting attention though?
NinthMusketeer wrote: As an AoS player I hope it stays that way. Which says something on it's own I think.
Anyways maybe a different thread for 3d printing discussion?
Well kinda. It's pretty relevant to the motivating concern of this discussion: SM releases are over the top, many cool armies just aren't getting anywhere like near enough releases, and all the while technology is eroding the assumptions that GW's business model is predicated on. 3D printing's flourishing in the hobby is an indictment of GW's pricing and neglect, as much as a reflection of new tech.
The reality is that 3d printing is not changing things in the near future. Aside from the price of the printer itself, people rarely mention that the dam things are about as reliable as regular printers. Stuff goes wrong, things need to be fixed, prints need to be redone, and it takes a ton of time just to actually print. While it is cheaper in the end, the reality is that much of that price difference is being replaced with time and labor. Many people have that right now due to the pandemic, but as we work our way out of it that will become a more relevant factor. And the results are still not as high of quality as modern GW plastic kits.
Put simply, if 3d printing really was *that* great, everyone would be doing it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 17:38:51
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No, they're rebuilding a world with a better illusion of IP protection, and scrambling to catch up to decades of background material that was randomly abandoned.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 17:57:55
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/03/18 18:05:16
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
Suddenly, I want a Starfox army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 18:05:39
Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250
2021/03/18 18:05:41
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
oh god, some artist drew an elf that isn't exactly the same as elves were depicted in lord of the rings, the horror, how dare they do something besides elf with sword, elf with bow and elf on horse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/18 18:08:45
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/03/18 18:16:41
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
the_scotsman wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
I know I'd prefer that to having the minis replaced by cow-monsters.
the_scotsman wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
I know I'd prefer that to having the minis replaced by cow-monsters.
...Except they weren't. A cow-giant miniature was released and added to high elves, a unit of elves riding things others have described as kangaroos (i'll use your language to avoid offending the sensibilities of people who want me to use specific terms here) was added.
You want the old high elf stuff but rendered in higher definition? We've got elf with spear, we've got elf with sword, we've got elf with bow, we've got elf on horse, we've got bolt thrower. You don't have to use the new kickass monkey king inspired bow guy, you can have Elf With Staff, also new and shiny, or Elf With Banner! You're not complaining about things being replaced by new things you're forced to use, you're complaining that anyone else gets to have something that has a new idea at all.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/03/18 18:51:39
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
It is ok for some people to like a thing and others to not like a thing.
When it comes to Lumineth, I feel GW leaned too hard on the 'these guys are successors to High Elves' in their initial previews. It gave the impression that they are supposed to be HElves 2.0, which understandably has left many disappointed and even upset when Lumineth have turned out not to be. They are the spiritual successors to HElves, but they are still their own army with their own identity that only has overlap in its core units and certain aesthetic elements. They are not High Elves any more than Exodites are Craftworlders.
Bringing that around to Eldar; a Craftworld revamp WOULD be the same army. There would not be a complete change in setting, the army would not be built from scratch around similar but ultimately different themes. New units would still need to fit in along many existing ones. I think people fearing a Craftworld update looking like Lumineth can (mostly) lay their concerns to rest on that.
the_scotsman wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
I know I'd prefer that to having the minis replaced by cow-monsters.
...Except they weren't. A cow-giant miniature was released and added to high elves, a unit of elves riding things others have described as kangaroos (i'll use your language to avoid offending the sensibilities of people who want me to use specific terms here) was added.
You want the old high elf stuff but rendered in higher definition? We've got elf with spear, we've got elf with sword, we've got elf with bow, we've got elf on horse, we've got bolt thrower. You don't have to use the new kickass monkey king inspired bow guy, you can have Elf With Staff, also new and shiny, or Elf With Banner! You're not complaining about things being replaced by new things you're forced to use, you're complaining that anyone else gets to have something that has a new idea at all.
White lions, seaguard, eagles, griffins, dragon lords, dragon mages, dragon princes, chariots, eagle chariots, shadow warriors... I'm sure I'm missing a few. Someone wanting to make a High Elf army out of Lumineth is missing most of the roster.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 18:56:05
Bringing that around to Eldar; a Craftworld revamp WOULD be the same army. There would not be a complete change in setting, the army would not be built from scratch around similar but ultimately different themes. New units would still need to fit in along many existing ones. I think people fearing a Craftworld update looking like Lumineth can (mostly) lay their concerns to rest on that.
Well, unfortunately not.
Most want their army supported, not forgotten, deleted, or utterly changed.
GW has flirted with all of those except supported. And haven't done anything to assuage fears they themselves started with the whole Ynnari thing. What does it mean that one of the major craftworlds is broken (or whatever)?
That its 'coincidentally' the signature Aspect Warrior craftworld doesn't help any. Its a spectre laying heavily over the entire faction, along with the decades old abandonment of the signature fighting forces of the faction. People are perfectly rational in thinking that a big hammer might come down on the other 'classic ' 40k faction
That dark eldar are coming out with bupkis doesn't help matters at all.
That high elf players got played with a bait and switch in AoS doesn't help either. Those sure were great spearmen and riders. Ooops. Sorry about that rug, hope you weren't standing on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 20:00:42
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/03/18 20:40:31
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
the_scotsman wrote: ...You want the old high elf stuff but rendered in higher definition? We've got elf with spear, we've got elf with sword, we've got elf with bow, we've got elf on horse, we've got bolt thrower. You don't have to use the new kickass monkey king inspired bow guy, you can have Elf With Staff, also new and shiny, or Elf With Banner! You're not complaining about things being replaced by new things you're forced to use, you're complaining that anyone else gets to have something that has a new idea at all.
No, I'm complaining that they did the giant cow monster instead of doing any of the "Aspect Warrior"-esque units from the old days, or dragons/phoenixes, or a small dragon/griffon heavy cavalry unit, or anything with the Skycutter concept. I'm complaining that the dragon/bird animal motifs have been entirely replaced with cow-motifs. I'd love to have had new stuff that wasn't a silly-looking giant cow monster.
Yeah lets talk about just HOW OLD eldar are for a second. Let me yarn you a yarn about how I got into 40k.
I first got into 40k late in middle school, in 8th grade, when two friends of mine wanted to split the brand new fifth ed starter. My dad, in a vain attempt to get me to not spend all my money on this game, gave me his old 3rd ed space wolf army to add to the AOBR starter so I could play gmaes with my friends.
Every unit in that army: Bjorn, a dreadnought, fenrisian wolves, grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, and ragnar, both got a new kit AND were soft-obsoleted by primaris marines.
When the time came to waste my money on the hobby, I looked into the factions, and loved the idea of eldar and the fluff of eldar, but man...the units I liked from Dawn of War were all ancient, expensive, monopose metals, and they looked way jankier than they did in the game. So I went with Necrons. In middle school and early high school i went through a hardcore 'zombie apocalypse' phase, where I imagined I'd save everyone in the zombie apocalypse and have lots of cool guns and all that dumb gak half my country never grew out of apparently.
All the models I owned for that army: Warriors, scarabs, immortals, spyders, wraiths, monoliths, destroyers - have all gotten new kits, 100% of them.
Then after I left for college, when I had all that saved up money from the summers I worked to get myself spending money, welp it was HIGH TIME TO WASTE MORE MONEY ON 40K WASNT IT??? Seeing as I moved away from my old playgroup in which one of my four 40k playing friends played orks, I bought orks! I went with speed freeks since I felt like I could paint the red with yellow squiggles.
Since owning that army, a huge number of new dedicated speed freek kits were released.
Then I grew a beard, started running low on feth it money, and got into a big ol 40k hipster phase where I started and got bored of several small hobby projects, basically all kitbashed. I made some Thousand Sons chaos marines, I played Space Marine and went down a lore wiki rabbit hole about Skitarii so I bought some guardsmen and kitbashed them with 'cron bits to make them Skitarii, then later when I went down another wikihole I reclassified them as a Genestealer cult and added the minis from Space Hulk that I already owned to them.
Since owning those, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cults, and Skitarii have all been released as fully fleshed out official model ranges.
after THAT GW finally released an eldar race that wasn't dark eldar (which I used to think playing would...make me gay, or something? I was embarrassed about them, I was like a freshman in college, sue me.) and which wasn't janky ancient cone hats: Harlequins! I know, the spiky elves I was worried were gay, so I bought the sparkly unicorn clowns in spandex. *shrug*.
I graduated college, got a job, met a girlfriend, bought a car, got engaged, moved three times, got married, bought a house, lived through covid, planned for my first kid...
And the eldar miniatures I looked at in disappointment IN EIGHTH FREAKING GRADE are still the EXACT SAME eldar miniatures I look at now.
A: Fun post.
B: Some of the Eldar models are the same as when I started. . . and I started in 2nd ed.
Now, to be fair I will say that some of the Eldar "replacements" over the years I've actually felt to be a step backwards, aesthetically. The 3rd-4th? edition Scorpions were not great models (and were rather quickly replaced. But for me, the Warp Spiders still look as sweet as they did when I was in high school. Imo may of the Eldar kits just looked so damn good that they really didn't need replacing. In many cases I'd settle for "a little cleaner" and "in plastic".
Now, to be fair I will say that some of the Eldar "replacements" over the years I've actually felt to be a step backwards, aesthetically. The 3rd-4th? edition Scorpions were not great models (and were rather quickly replaced. But for me, the Warp Spiders still look as sweet as they did when I was in high school. Imo may of the Eldar kits just looked so damn good that they really didn't need replacing. In many cases I'd settle for "a little cleaner" and "in plastic".
Agreed. Just update the models to be less 2 dimensional, try to do a better job at it than the first plastic farseer and the first spiritseer and I would be mostly happy. So, like the new Banshees, but with a saner price (I can't find excuses to spend 1€ per point on updates).
2021/03/18 21:53:08
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No, they're rebuilding a world with a better illusion of IP protection, and scrambling to catch up to decades of background material that was randomly abandoned.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
Then they'll get nothing, because clearly they're happy with what they have, if they don't want anything changed.
2021/03/18 21:57:02
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No, they're rebuilding a world with a better illusion of IP protection, and scrambling to catch up to decades of background material that was randomly abandoned.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
Then they'll get nothing, because clearly they're happy with what they have, if they don't want anything changed.
That's... just bizarre.
'You can't want anything if you don't want a radical redesign or deletion!' makes no logical sense.
Go to your boss and tell him you want a raise. I very much doubt his response will be 'you're fired or tend my cattle herd, but those are your only options.'
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/03/18 22:10:01
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Now, to be fair I will say that some of the Eldar "replacements" over the years I've actually felt to be a step backwards, aesthetically. The 3rd-4th? edition Scorpions were not great models (and were rather quickly replaced. But for me, the Warp Spiders still look as sweet as they did when I was in high school. Imo may of the Eldar kits just looked so damn good that they really didn't need replacing. In many cases I'd settle for "a little cleaner" and "in plastic".
Agreed. Just update the models to be less 2 dimensional, try to do a better job at it than the first plastic farseer and the first spiritseer and I would be mostly happy. So, like the new Banshees, but with a saner price (I can't find excuses to spend 1€ per point on updates).
While these aren't cheap models either, Eradicators aren't 1€ / point and aren't models I already have.
And it's not even a complaint, if they continue to price them like this I'll just pass my turn as I do with a lot of their products. I already have pewter squads and don't really need anything. It doesn't really matter to me, it's just sad for anyone newer to the range.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/03/18 22:27:54
2021/03/18 22:21:48
Subject: Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines
Imperial Guard - 1500 
GSC - 250 
(I can't find excuses to spend 1€ per point on updates).