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drbored wrote:
...6 separate Aspect Warrior infantry kits and 6 separate 'named' characters for a faction that doesn't sell a ton...

You don't need six. Dual-kit Dark Reapers/Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders/Striking Scorpions (based on comparable poses/armour weights, swap heads/arms (and backpacks, for the Warp Spiders) and you're good to go), Dire Avengers are an easy dual-kit with updated Guardians, and Shining Spears are a small upgrade frame you stick in with the jetbike sprues.

drbored wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Edit: On second thoughts.. Nope.

On topic - If GW can make sprues for obscure Blood bowl/ Necromunda/ Whatever game. They darn well could have the capacity to make new aspects if they wanted to... Especialy as the designs are there ready for them.. They are infantry sized sprues. Not blimin knights..

Its not a capacity issue. Its purely a "unwillingness" issue. No idea why though..

There are a dozen little reasons that Aspect Warriors haven't gotten big updates. I think a lot of it boils down to: Big Investment, Small Return.

6 separate Aspect Warrior infantry kits and 6 separate 'named' characters for a faction that doesn't sell a ton.

That's a lot of kits when you're not Space Marines.

It would sell more than any of the AOS ranges they put out. It would sell more than their entire Necromunda range.

None of those are small investments.

Like, did you miss that they're bringing out more fantasy Elf models soon, bringing that faction to basically being the 2nd largest one in terms of plastic releases in AOS? That's a huge investment on a completely unproven idea. It doesn't matter than HE were one of the most popular factions in WHFB, Lumineth are far weirder than HE, with lots of bizarre and controversial design choices. Hell, just look at Idoneth too. Completely unproven and risky idea, at a time when the game they were made for was doing pure gak in terms of numbers. But they still made like 15-16 kits for this army. Are you honestly going to sit here and say that GW thought Idoneth were guaranteed to sell more than Space Marines? You think they've even come close to a fraction of what Marines have sold, 3 years later?

If we're going to keep up with this stupid point of view people continually repeat, then why are GW making anything but Space Marines? Like, absolutely it's been insane these past 3-4 years in terms of releases for them, but they have made plenty of other model ranges, pretty expansive ones too. Not just for 40K but their other systems too. Because, hey, guess what, a range can be profitable while not breaking sales records. Crazy idea I know but it's something GW realises.

Eldar are historically one of the most popular armies in the game. All of their past releases have sold incredibly well. The lack of real proper updates for a lot of their range is purely down to unwillingness and lack of passion within the studio, because we know a lot of what they make internally is what appeals to them.

If we're going to keep up with this stupid point of view people continually repeat, then why are GW making anything but Space Marines?

License stuff, people do buy some of them, the things are part of the historical setting of w40k etc.

But they still made like 15-16 kits for this army. Are you honestly going to sit here and say that GW thought Idoneth were guaranteed to sell more than Space Marines?

From what I understand about early AoS, GW very much wanted and started it with AoS marines, droped a ton of stuff for them, but it didn't stick well enough, so with money investment in to design of a new game they had no other options, but to try out doing other stuff, otherwise they would have to drop AoS too.

Eldar are historically one of the most popular armies in the game. All of their past releases have sold incredibly well. The lack of real proper updates for a lot of their range is purely down to unwillingness and lack of passion within the studio, because we know a lot of what they make internally is what appeals to them.

they are also historically insanely unfun to play against by the best selling army GW has, meaning no matter how well they sell, unless they somehow outsell marines long term, it is not worth to invest a lot of money in to them. Specially with eldar and other xeno players being very picky buyers. Marine stuff gets sold out, even if GW turns in to scalpers of their own boxs and up price parts of DI or Indomitus like crazy. Eldar box no so much. Same with AoS stuff, by the way, if the shield and sword slanesh guy was a marine primarch model he would be sold out in an instant, and you can still buy him from GW right now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

drbored wrote:
...6 separate Aspect Warrior infantry kits and 6 separate 'named' characters for a faction that doesn't sell a ton...

You don't need six. Dual-kit Dark Reapers/Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders/Striking Scorpions (based on comparable poses/armour weights, swap heads/arms (and backpacks, for the Warp Spiders) and you're good to go),

I can't help but think that a combo Reaper/Dragon or Spider/Scorpion would look terrible.

Why only difference between reaper and dragon is helmet and head.

Spiders should probably be a separate kit, because to make them those large backpacks are needed. Who knows maybe GW should make a shoty scorpions/melee scorpions box, and a separate one for the spiders.

Karol wrote:
Why only difference between reaper and dragon is helmet and head.

And the armor (reapers are - or were {don't have an 8e dex} - the most heavily armored aspect), and the back pack, and the tabard, and the stance....
Reapers are my least favorite Aspect sculpt wise. So if a duel kit had to double as Reaper & Dragon? The result would probably end up not suiting me armor-wise, thus spoiling my favorite Aspect.

But that would require GW to make multiple kits for eldar. Kind of a hard to imagine them doing it without removing some of the aspects.

To me reapers and dragons look exactly the same as far as armour goes. the only difference is the weapons, and one having crested helmets and the other dudes having skulls instead of head. Not sure what the back pack is suppose to be because the fire dragon and dark reapers people use here don't have any. Could be recasters foult though, not wanting to make them.

Are the back packs spider sized or more like the ones avangers have?

For me at least a Banshee/Hawk, Spider/Scorpion, Dragon/Reaper cross would have been fine. But as said, I don't find "plastic aspect warriors" all that exciting unless they fundamentally altered the rules, so a 2nd/3rd edition style Foot-Dar Aspect Spam had some vague viability.

Not really convinced on CWE not selling, I'd say over any long-term basis they are probably the 2nd most popular faction after Marines. They wax and wane with their power - which in the last 25~ years has usually been high, aside from now, index 8th and I want to say late 5th. Certainly in 7th - which admittedly was not the best of times - Wraithknights and Scatbikes seemed to be everywhere. GW certainly got their money back on those.

Karol wrote:

If we're going to keep up with this stupid point of view people continually repeat, then why are GW making anything but Space Marines?

License stuff, people do buy some of them, the things are part of the historical setting of w40k etc.

But they still made like 15-16 kits for this army. Are you honestly going to sit here and say that GW thought Idoneth were guaranteed to sell more than Space Marines?

From what I understand about early AoS, GW very much wanted and started it with AoS marines, droped a ton of stuff for them, but it didn't stick well enough, so with money investment in to design of a new game they had no other options, but to try out doing other stuff, otherwise they would have to drop AoS too.

Eldar are historically one of the most popular armies in the game. All of their past releases have sold incredibly well. The lack of real proper updates for a lot of their range is purely down to unwillingness and lack of passion within the studio, because we know a lot of what they make internally is what appeals to them.

they are also historically insanely unfun to play against by the best selling army GW has, meaning no matter how well they sell, unless they somehow outsell marines long term, it is not worth to invest a lot of money in to them. Specially with eldar and other xeno players being very picky buyers. Marine stuff gets sold out, even if GW turns in to scalpers of their own boxs and up price parts of DI or Indomitus like crazy. Eldar box no so much. Same with AoS stuff, by the way, if the shield and sword slanesh guy was a marine primarch model he would be sold out in an instant, and you can still buy him from GW right now.

Eldar became a meme and GW knows it

If they make a good rewamp they will sell like there is no tomorow,
It will even be so easy to do a good marketing campaign just using "you had to wait 25 years and we finally did it)

 Bosskelot wrote:

Like, did you miss that they're bringing out more fantasy Elf models soon, bringing that faction to basically being the 2nd largest one in terms of plastic releases in AOS? That's a huge investment on a completely unproven idea. It doesn't matter than HE were one of the most popular factions in WHFB, Lumineth are far weirder than HE, with lots of bizarre and controversial design choices. Hell, just look at Idoneth too. Completely unproven and risky idea, at a time when the game they were made for was doing pure gak in terms of numbers. But they still made like 15-16 kits for this army. Are you honestly going to sit here and say that GW thought Idoneth were guaranteed to sell more than Space Marines? You think they've even come close to a fraction of what Marines have sold, 3 years later?

Nothing sells marine level. If you think GW expects that to release kit eldar are doomed. They will never sell even close to marine level...

tneva82 wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

Like, did you miss that they're bringing out more fantasy Elf models soon, bringing that faction to basically being the 2nd largest one in terms of plastic releases in AOS? That's a huge investment on a completely unproven idea. It doesn't matter than HE were one of the most popular factions in WHFB, Lumineth are far weirder than HE, with lots of bizarre and controversial design choices. Hell, just look at Idoneth too. Completely unproven and risky idea, at a time when the game they were made for was doing pure gak in terms of numbers. But they still made like 15-16 kits for this army. Are you honestly going to sit here and say that GW thought Idoneth were guaranteed to sell more than Space Marines? You think they've even come close to a fraction of what Marines have sold, 3 years later?

Nothing sells marine level. If you think GW expects that to release kit eldar are doomed. They will never sell even close to marine level...

Its not about selling, its about to keep player engaged and have some variety, hell its literally the reason why aos its growing so much, variety, TON of different release, and local with different armies,
You think all the eldar/xeno players will give up and buy marines? no, they will buy from the likes of artel W or go for different games
At some point even marine players will be tired to the costant releases

Hell 7/10 people at my local play SM, its not fun anymore

You think that marine players are not engaged in to playing their armies? Or custodes or harlis or demons or orks, and all the other armies that don't happen to have a 30% win rate?

Marines releases are diverse, because the armies play different, they are build with different units and have different rules, enough for people to not feel as if they were playing the same thing over and over again.

And if marine players didn't get tired buying stuff for 30 years, they are not going to get tired in the future. It is like saying that we just have to wait and anytime soon people will get tired of football and curling will people just as popular too.

I think people are overlooking a very simple truth: Elves in general sell and they sell well.

Sure, they might not sell at Space Marine levels, but they sell enough that we have numerous 3rd party studios making their own versions to sell. The three most common 3rd party sellers are Marines, Orcs, and Elves. These are three factions that just generally sell well.

Currently we have Artel W outpacing GW Space Elf releases and they have been expanding it enough that one has to assume that they are selling quite well. That means GW is actively ignoring a market they could do well in and giving it to third party releases. I mean, at this point I will be ordering Artel W stuff because GW isn't providing me with anything that I haven't bought ten times over.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
You think that marine players are not engaged in to playing their armies? Or custodes or harlis or demons or orks, and all the other armies that don't happen to have a 30% win rate?

I think you misunderstood their point completely.

I've actually experienced a bit of exodus into AoS as of late. People who don't play marines will get tired of the endless deluge of marines and look elsewhere. Not everyone signed up to play Horus Heresy back in 1998(or whenever people started) when they started playing 40k.

And? I don't remember people playing not marines asking for their armies to be changed and nerfed so marine players, who make the majority of all players, should have fun too. In fact the arguments used back then were along the line of , not everyone plays the good stuff, learn to play, pick the right army and Gulliman lists are powerful.

W40k right now has more people having fun, then it had in 9th ed. There is more armies to be played, in different ways and even when it is bad to be forced to buy two books to play one army. Everything else seems fine, for everyone else, but the armies that have bad rule sets. And I don't know why, maybe because eldar and tau players aren't used to having bad rules, this seems to be a huge problem. My dudes were bad practicaly all of 8th ed, and from what I was told, they were bad in 7th and 6th ed too. Eldar or tau have not been bad even a whole edition, they don't even have a 9th ed book.

I would get this all if the first book in 9th was eldar, it was a copy past of the 8th ed book, with no real changes, and then was followed by all the good marine, necron and DG releases. I would get being unhappy, 3 years of bad rules is not fun. But this is not the case, neither of the armies got a 9th update.

I think people are overlooking a very simple truth: Elves in general sell and they sell well.

It is hard to sell bad, when you have very good rules.

I love my space wolves, but I've definitely put them on the backburner right now as a lot of folks in my club play Marines ATM.

 jaredb wrote:
I love my space wolves, but I've definitely put them on the backburner right now as a lot of folks in my club play Marines ATM.

I have Dark Angels. Parked them into my basement as I just don't want to be "yet another Space Marine player".

 Eldarsif wrote:

 jaredb wrote:
I love my space wolves, but I've definitely put them on the backburner right now as a lot of folks in my club play Marines ATM.

I have Dark Angels. Parked them into my basement as I just don't want to be "yet another Space Marine player".

You are doing god's work

Back in topic, the fact that gets me the most is that i am closed in a limbo where i competly dont know where gw is going, there is no road map, no date, no "in 2021 we will fix eldar" and this is so unprofessional if you ask me

How i can keep putting my time in a game where i just play vs SM and see only SM release and the faction that i love and invested my money into is used only for making SM character look cool? Ynnari was pratically written just to ress bobby g lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jaredb wrote:
I love my space wolves, but I've definitely put them on the backburner right now as a lot of folks in my club play Marines ATM.

This is literally the reason most people in my club switched to aos, more variety, and the rest its getting tired to play mirror matches and you see them slowly burning out, and DE codex wont change this

maybe its a GW Tzeetch like plan to make people buy aos llol

This is literally the reason most people in my club switched to aos, more variety, and the rest its getting tired to play mirror matches and you see them slowly burning out, and DE codex wont change this

At my last tournament 6 out of 10 players were Space marine players. Then one Death Guard and one Custodes. The rest was Necrons and Tau. Even with the new Drukhari codex I also don't foresee much diversification(at least I can play my space elves again).

Regarding plastic Aspects, one way to mitigate risk is to use your minigames. Afraid you won't sell enough Aspect Warriors for 40k? Build a Kill Team expansion to detail the Aeldari civil war/ Ynarri sub-plot. Then release another 40k Warhammer Quest game set in Commorragh.

People have mentioned the exodus to AoS; I gotta tell you, Cursed City, Direchasm and Warcry are a big part of that too. BSF and KT (while it was still getting things like the Kellermorph and Manipulus) where a big part of why I loved 8th. GW seems to have forgotten how important that synergy is.

And if they dropped 6 boxes of plastic Aspects with decent rules and space marine prices, they'd sell out prerelease weekend. And they'd continue to sell fast enough that it would be hard to keep them in stock for the first year. I like Artel's Aeldari substitutes. But I would forget all about them if GW just got off the pot.

And I think GW knows this to be true. Eldar players of almost all stripes are as hungry as Sisters players were in 8th, and that hunger translated into fat stacks of cash. But so much is needed for CWE/DE that they almost need a boxed set to help them deliver it. And maybe GW is just waiting for the dust to settle on their other boxed sets before taking that leap.

They really missed an opportunity with the DE half of Piety and Pain- had they created new sculpts for Bloodbrides and thrown them in the box with Lelith, they'd have been further ahead. I mean, it's already going to sell well because the Sisters half of the box is pure gold... But they could have taken it farther.

I like Artel's Aeldari substitutes. But I would forget all about them if GW just got off the pot.

I think a lot of people are in the same boat. Give them official minis from GW, and they'd snap them up. It's the lack of anything official from Games Workshop that IMO drives a lot of third-party sales.

drbored wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Edit: On second thoughts.. Nope.

On topic - If GW can make sprues for obscure Blood bowl/ Necromunda/ Whatever game. They darn well could have the capacity to make new aspects if they wanted to... Especialy as the designs are there ready for them.. They are infantry sized sprues. Not blimin knights..

Its not a capacity issue. Its purely a "unwillingness" issue. No idea why though..

There are a dozen little reasons that Aspect Warriors haven't gotten big updates. I think a lot of it boils down to: Big Investment, Small Return.

6 separate Aspect Warrior infantry kits and 6 separate 'named' characters for a faction that doesn't sell a ton.

That's a lot of kits when you're not Space Marines.

How can you sell something that doesn't exist??

 Argive wrote:


How can you sell something that doesn't exist??

Well GW has their sites and their sells to stores, they more or less know how much of what stuff, and how fast they sell. Do you think that without a legion of people asking for SoB, they would have re launched the line?
To make an example, to update my army to be good, they would have to add primaris to them, but that would require remaking every unit in my codex with a specific GK only primaris unit. They know the sells for GK, and they know it just would be too much of a risk to invest in to them. And primaris GK wouldn't even be in such a limited market place as eldar. Other marine players could still buy GK primaris to get parts and bits for their models. With eldar, if you make new models for them, you are selling them only for eldar players. Unless you somehow make it possible for harlis and DE to be able to take them too. But it is still a much smaller market then each space marine faction combined.

Karol wrote:
But that would require GW to make multiple kits for eldar. Kind of a hard to imagine them doing it without removing some of the aspects.

To me reapers and dragons look exactly the same as far as armour goes. the only difference is the weapons, and one having crested helmets and the other dudes having skulls instead of head. Not sure what the back pack is suppose to be because the fire dragon and dark reapers people use here don't have any. Could be recasters foult though, not wanting to make them.

Are the back packs spider sized or more like the ones avangers have?

then why do space marines not only have one kit that can be built into any of their units?

Biggest differences between DR and FD are : head, weapons, tabards.
Smaller differences : Dark reapers have bigger armor plates, skull iconography and different backs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Well GW has their sites and their sells to stores, they more or less know how much of what stuff, and how fast they sell. Do you think that without a legion of people asking for SoB, they would have re launched the line?

? Because you think Eldar players aren't asking for plastic models (at the very least). feth, we're not even asking for NEW units, just updates so that our 20 year old sculpts look like they belong in the game.

Karol wrote:

To make an example, to update my army to be good, they would have to add primaris to them, but that would require remaking every unit in my codex with a specific GK only primaris unit. They know the sells for GK, and they know it just would be too much of a risk to invest in to them. And primaris GK wouldn't even be in such a limited market place as eldar. Other marine players could still buy GK primaris to get parts and bits for their models. With eldar, if you make new models for them, you are selling them only for eldar players. Unless you somehow make it possible for harlis and DE to be able to take them too. But it is still a much smaller market then each space marine faction combined.

theres plenty of ways to make GK good without just slapping Primaris on everything... GW lack of creativity is to blame here.

Karol wrote:

 Argive wrote:


How can you sell something that doesn't exist??

Well GW has their sites and their sells to stores, they more or less know how much of what stuff, and how fast they sell. Do you think that without a legion of people asking for SoB, they would have re launched the line?
To make an example, to update my army to be good, they would have to add primaris to them, but that would require remaking every unit in my codex with a specific GK only primaris unit. They know the sells for GK, and they know it just would be too much of a risk to invest in to them. And primaris GK wouldn't even be in such a limited market place as eldar. Other marine players could still buy GK primaris to get parts and bits for their models. With eldar, if you make new models for them, you are selling them only for eldar players. Unless you somehow make it possible for harlis and DE to be able to take them too. But it is still a much smaller market then each space marine faction combined.

There are tons of players asking for Eldar models and SoB players were asking since way before GW eventually caved in.

Your logic also creates an unsolvable problem :
Existing Eldar players have nothing to buy as nothing is released.
New players aren't interested in Eldar, because the range is too old.
Thus we don't make model, thus nothing sells.

Looks like a good strategy. Maybe they should stop releasing armies out of nowhere for that other game they have. Or stop releasing "mini games". Because you know "ThERe Is No eXiSTinG MarKEt".
Just sell marines. Always, forever.

Also, DE & Harlies can already use CWE units if they want to, no tweaks are needed.

I mean the "doesn't sell" train of thought I just dont buy..

Any given 40k faction in my opinion would outsell any of the offshoot specialist games if new models are released. Notwithstanding CWE. The investment to make those sprues is not more for 40k.. Its not like they have to pay themselves Licence fees to make the models.....

then why do space marines not only have one kit that can be built into any of their units?

Biggest differences between DR and FD are : head, weapons, tabards.
Smaller differences : Dark reapers have bigger armor plates, skull iconography and different backs.

Oh that is easy. Just because they sell more boxs, doesn't mean that GW wants to sell them for cheap and not make money. I mean just look at the honored of the chapter box. It is ment for places like my country, where getting an indomitus box was not easy. The new box has scalping level of price attached to it.

GW doesn't make one Lt for all marines, because SW/DA/BA etc Lt will sell. Low investment from them, big mark up, and still people may buy let say the salamander upgrade sprue because they want a specific looking thunder hammer.

Plus technicaly they do have double kits. The reaver box lets you make regular reavers and the anti psyker SW ones. And the intercessor box lets you make intercessors and the BA death company, and veteran intercessors.

There are tons of players asking for Eldar models and SoB players were asking since way before GW eventually caved in.

Well I can tell you that there probably isn't a single GK player in the world who is sitting right now thinking that GK codex should not have been updated in 8th or in 9th. The thing is that GW weights the numbers, and it seems like they weighted armies like Ad mecha, SoB etc and decided that it would make them more money, if they updated those armies first. And don't even for a second thing that that, if an eldar updated wasn't making them more money, they would st make orcs and necron, before eldar. All comes down to making GW money. And I don't see this is as bad thing.

Existing Eldar players have nothing to buy as nothing is released.
New players aren't interested in Eldar, because the range is too old.
Thus we don't make model, thus nothing sells.

well the thing is they do buy stuff. 8th starts and they buy resin dark reapers, the flyers etc. It is not like I don't know GK, where probably the majority of GK playing longer then an edition, have a set of termintors and power armoured dude and really have nothing to buy. If GW made an errata/faq tomorrow that makes swooping hawks the unit of 9th ed doom, eldar players would be buying the recasts and the resin versions from GW.

But yeah I agree it is not a fun place to be in, when GW decides that giving you 1-2 characters and 1-2 units is enough per new codex.

Also, DE & Harlies can already use CWE units if they want to, no tweaks are needed.

yes I am aware that cwe+harli two battalion armies are doing rather well. Still doesn't change the fact that it is not optimal. For tournaments it may work, but every DE players is going to want to stack up on eldar or harli units. But who knows I could be wrong on that, and eldar players of any kinds do not have such problems. I know that marine players were not happy about being forced to run the loyal 32, and a lot didn't.

? Because you think Eldar players aren't asking for plastic models (at the very least). feth, we're not even asking for NEW units, just updates so that our 20 year old sculpts look like they belong in the game.

Oh I know they are asking. As I said GK players ask for new rules too, from what I understand for a few editions. But if GW thinks that investing in to making plastic eldar models right now, is not going to make them the money they want, comparing to the state the eldar are in right now, then they are not going to do it. This is simple question of money generation. Eldar get good rules, and this makes them sell any model , no matter how bad looking or old. Although I must say I don't think the eldar models look bad, comparing to stuff like khorn berzerkers or some of the IG stuff. Problems start of course, when they don't have good rules. It doesn't seem to be a thing that happens often though.

theres plenty of ways to make GK good without just slapping Primaris on everything... GW lack of creativity is to blame here.

well I am uncreative as it gets, so I am not going to judge them. What I do know is that GW operates on the no model, no new rules paradigma , and that they do try to focus on new models for marines. And if something of the old stuff get broken good, like dreads in 8th or van vets in 9th, it is not really a planed thing, and more like a copy paste related buff.

GW just put a ton of support into a big Necron revamp. Tons and tons of updated and new kits.
A huge investment.
And that's for Necrons, an army that would never sell anything near Space Marines level.

But from all accounts they are selling a crap ton of Necrons now.

Are people really telling me if GW put a similar investment into Eldar, they also wouldn't get a massive surge of new and existing players buying their models?

If Necrons sold like crazy and Sisters sold like crazy before them, I have zero doubt in my mind Craftworld Eldar would sell tons too.

People are hungry, the demand is there.
Hell there is so much demand a third party seller is making more and more of their own off-brand Eldar every day.

For all the gak GW is getting, they really did revive a lot of things that people were craving for and absolutely did not expect:

- Necromunda
- Sororitas
- Genestealer Cults
- Gulliman
- Warhammer TOW
- Zoats
- Ambulls

Heck, at this stage nothing is off limits (except Squats), so Eldar of all factions are certainly not unlikely to be remade. Jain Zar and Banshees aren't even that old, so there must be some sort of plan for them, even if it's a rebranding into Ynarii.

 BertBert wrote:
For all the gak GW is getting, they really did revive a lot of things that people were craving for and absolutely did not expect:

- Necromunda
- Sororitas
- Genestealer Cults
- Gulliman
- Warhammer TOW
- Zoats
- Ambulls

Heck, at this stage nothing is off limits (except Squats), so Eldar of all factions are certainly not unlikely to be remade. Jain Zar and Banshees aren't even that old, so there must be some sort of plan for them, even if it's a rebranding into Ynarii.

Except they ALSO revived squats (there's one (1) in Necromunda).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Except they ALSO revived squats (there's one (1) in Necromunda).

Two !