Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yukishiro1 wrote:It wasn't a clickbait thread, it was an angry rant.

Sorry, but it very much is a clickbaity title. It's not phrased as a question, and it's deliberately overlooking context and coming to an extreme conclusion.

I'm not saying this is a trolling thread, but I am saying that it was dishonest from the title down.

He didn't make an analogy to domestic abuse or anything like it unless I missed it, he just used the term, which has a very broad meaning (e.g. "abusing someone's trust," "he verbally abused the waiter for delivering cold food," etc etc).

In a different context, maybe, but in the context used, certainly not. There was definitely an intent to make that analogy - spur of the moment or not.

Also, calling people whores is shameful language.

Da Boss wrote:I think implying someone is mentally ill because they went off on one about their hobby is a in poor taste myself.

Oh, agreed. Incredibly poor taste. But implying that someone's a "whore" or is some kind of abuse victim is also poor taste. OP has no sympathy from me in that, regardless of how I might also disagree with the conduct of other users to them.

It's a bad thread all round.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's a bad thread all round.

Exactly what I said, so I'm a little bit puzzled over why you responded to what I said with a list of "look at the bad things he said too!"

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote: He didn't make an analogy to domestic abuse or anything like it unless I missed it, he just used the term, which has a very broad meaning (e.g. "abusing someone's trust," "he verbally abused the waiter for delivering cold food," etc etc).

In a different context, maybe, but in the context used, certainly not. There was definitely an intent to make that analogy - spur of the moment or not.

But I have to disagree with this. It seems pretty clear to me he was saying GW is abusing the trust and/or naivety of its captive audience because it knows they'll continue to buy regardless. I think you have to reach pretty far to claim he was saying that GW's relationship with its customers is akin to domestic abuse.

I only mention it because I've seen this a lot recently re: people clutching their pearls at the use of the term in anything but a domestic abuse context, when it really isn't warranted based on what the word actually means. If someone says "that company abuses its customers" people really shouldn't assume they're demeaning the seriousness of domestic abuse, any more than someone saying "this price increase really hurts" is demeaning the seriousness of physical pain. All these words get used metaphorically in English and they shouldn't be seized upon as a way to shut down someone's expression by accusing them of doing something they likely aren't.

I.fount you'll read this,but...

Really can't stand this name calling and hyperbole. It's not needed. We are all better than this.

Youre upset. Fine. I'd argue its premature and out of place. Orks will get their time to shine. But it sounds to me you've wrapped up your relationship to 40k with a lot of anger and poison. And you're taking a lot of it out on your fellow gamers for nothing other than not being as angry as you or disagreeing with you.

With respect, you're not helping your case. Not being apoplectic with rage, or dare I say it, enjoying some of the releases neither makes you an apologist, a consumer whore, or an abuse victim.

Iy Might be a good idea to fo what you're doing, step back, take a break and walk away for a while. Stewing in things that make you angry doesn't help. I've been there.

The hobby will be there when you come back.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

This just happens to be a fight taking place in the VERY large Charadon sector. Not *all* of Charadon is Ork territory, in the same way that not everything on the Eastern Fringe involves Tau or Ultramarines, or that everything in the Cadian Gate involves Cadians (for example, Waaagh! Tuska). It's a focus on a small region of Charadon, where Metalica happens to be located, because that's the focus of this particular Act. And, almost without a shadow of a doubt, there will be other Acts that feature Orks.

So, no, GW aren't "writing Orks out of Charadon", or whatever other exaggerated clickbait title it was.

(Side note, yes, xenos players have my fullest sympathies. But misrepresenting information, comparing your situation to domestic abuse, and calling people whores won't do you any favours. To those of you who can show their frustrations without resorting to such vile language, I'm sorry these people often represent you, and I recognise that the spectrum of opinon extends beyond that.)

Here is a thought, if the campaign doesn't prominently feature Orkz....choose a sector that doesn't prominently feature orkz. I know, crazy thought, logic and all, but I feel like that would have been a better look than inventing a conflict on metallica which is literally IN THE PATH OF THE CURRENT WAAAAGH of the arch arsonist. I even posted a link showing the current ork empires and where the Waaagh's are and where they are going. The Arch Arsonist WAAAAGH is so big/powerful that its split into several smaller WAAAAGHS going in different directions with 2 of them going right by Metallica.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, that strikes me as more of a chicken and the egg sort of thing. It shows there's a demand that GW isn't fulfilling, and I suspect if they did, most of that business would come back to papa GW.

Besides, 90% of that stuff is just bits anyway, so it's not like it really impacts GW's bottom line anyway. GW doesn't care if people buy 3rd party heads or bionic arms or whatever as long as they buy the basic GW kits to swap them onto.

Less chicken and the egg and more "Chicken and the incompetent company that wants to lose profit". I'm in a host of Ork groups/pages and the sheer volume of knock off stuff, DIY tutorials, 3D print projects etc is astounding. I know a guy who is currently 3D printing/designing Stompa's because the GW one sucks. I know a host of guys who are designing a large number of characters both named and otherwise because GW doesn't make the model. How many Named Librarians do Space Marines have models for? Orkz have literally 1 weirdboy that is famous and he doesn't have a model even though he was a fan favorite for years "Old Zogwort".

Cronch wrote:
The sheer audacity of an ork player to expect a sector known only for it's orks to include orks in the campaign book

Yup. Again, let me know when they make a new campaign series featured in the Sol system but doesn't include imperials.

Dai wrote:
The orks - they fought and lost but ultimately had a bloody good time. Paste that in to the end of ya book mate and you're golden.

Wouldn't even need to be that dramatic. Take a look at history and specifically "Da Green Krusade". Ork players got annoyed that they were basically left out of the early 2000s Eye of terror campaign featuring around the 13th black crusade. So a bunch of orkz organized the community and literally took over swathes of territory, specifically the scarus sector.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I mean, there's obviously a bit to be grumpy about with GW's focus on SM, as can be seen by all the threads popping up weekly about that.
But in this case... I'm not really seeing it. The Death Guard was a big player in the Vigilus books, they featured in the story and there were quite extensive descriptions of their use of Gellarpox infected - one might think these would be supported by rules content - but there was nothing.
So it's possible that orks will feature heavily in the background of book 1 already but will get rules in book 2 (If I remember right that was the case for CSM in Vigilus, too).

Glad you brought up vigilus because that was also the start of GW's wonderful "orktober" which turned out to be a flop. GW finally did release all the new buggies and even featured them in a campaign where they were the primary faction! oh wait, no, they were relegated to the background

As for Ork players upset about the Space wolves and ghaz...yeah Jidmah and I won't ever agree on that one. Just my theory here, but the biggest baddest Ork since the Beast should at least be able to beat up a Space Wolf Captain without getting his head lopped off. But it was all ok, the plot armor was strong across the board.

geargutz wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A book?

Not dedicated to your preferred army?

Those children born outside of holy matrimony!

let me write a campaign book about the tau sector...but not include the tau in the conflict.

let me write a campaign book about the eye of terror, but not involve the CSM or demons.

let me write a campaign book about horus heresy or terra, but not include a single space marine or primarch or imperial.

erm that middle option actually is feasable.... just GW doens't care neither about that faction.

You're right Smudge, calling another poster a whore is out of order too.

And I do agree with others, if you feel really angry about the game best to give it a break for a while. I got quite disillusioned back in the day and was often very annoyed about the lack of support for Orks in particular. You can probably find those posts if you look at my early posting history here.

I'm more relaxed now, because I don't really have the expectation any more, but also because the Ork range got "completed" back at the end of 4e in my view- all the missing unit types got filled in, we got a plastic battlewagon that looked awesome, new trukks and bikes and cool new characters. So I'm not that bothered about new models - they might be nice, maybe one of these days I'll pick up a Gorkanaut as a centrepiece for my Waagh, but what do we really need from GW as Ork players any more?

That said, I do understand being annoyed at the unequal treatment. But it's never going to change, so eventually you have to accept it, or move on.

Vigilus book 1 was set around the War of Beasts against the Orks and GSC who rose up at the same time. Not sure where "relegated to the background" features in that.
And once again for like the eighth time in this thread, War of Rust is in the Charadon sector, which in turn is in Ultima Segmentum, where the Forge World of Metalica resides. The Death Guard attacks Metalica from their base in the Scourge Stars, which is in Ultima Segmentum. This is Book 1 that coincides with the release of Codex DG, Druhkari, Admech, and presumably Knights. Orks will probably be in Book 2 as the sucker punch. GW is adding to Imperial problems in the sector, not writing the Orks away. You are allowed to be mad your faction didn't get a book first but Orks just got their main character redone as well as a special edition mini. Orks also have one of the most updated model lines, boohoo you didn't get as many releases as the faction that drives the sales of the game.

yukishiro1 wrote:
IIs it hyperbolic to describe GW as abusing its customers? Yeah, probably.

It may not abuse the customers, but the sheer disparity between attention paid to some parts of the game and others could easily fall under abuse of trust. As a customer getting into a collectible hobby, one could assume that the company will provide me with certain amount of products to collect and keep my attention/keep things balanced on the game front. They're clearly not doing that, playing favorites. It's not GW's legal obligation to provide updates to all armies at equal pace, but on a basic level, it really is understood that some level of fairness will be maintained by the company towards all of its' customers. It's not a videogame where you have free2play and paying customers getting different experience.

GW is a company that owes nobody anything in regards to products. I would argue the only thing they "promise" to deliver with regards to 40k is the promotional material, Space Marines. At a push, I would say they promise to deliver products featured in a new game edition starter box.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's a bad thread all round.

Exactly what I said, so I'm a little bit puzzled over why you responded to what I said with a list of "look at the bad things he said too!"

Because I was disagreeing with what you said about this thread not being clickbaity. It's a bad thread all around, and that includes from the very start of it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote: He didn't make an analogy to domestic abuse or anything like it unless I missed it, he just used the term, which has a very broad meaning (e.g. "abusing someone's trust," "he verbally abused the waiter for delivering cold food," etc etc).

In a different context, maybe, but in the context used, certainly not. There was definitely an intent to make that analogy - spur of the moment or not.

But I have to disagree with this. It seems pretty clear to me he was saying GW is abusing the trust and/or naivety of its captive audience because it knows they'll continue to buy regardless. I think you have to reach pretty far to claim he was saying that GW's relationship with its customers is akin to domestic abuse.

I only mention it because I've seen this a lot recently re: people clutching their pearls at the use of the term in anything but a domestic abuse context, when it really isn't warranted based on what the word actually means. If someone says "that company abuses its customers" people really shouldn't assume they're demeaning the seriousness of domestic abuse, any more than someone saying "this price increase really hurts" is demeaning the seriousness of physical pain. All these words get used metaphorically in English and they shouldn't be seized upon as a way to shut down someone's expression by accusing them of doing something they likely aren't.

And again, I point to the context and language used around it. Hell, we had them calling people whores for buying GW products and being white knights simply for disagreeing.

I don't believe for a second that their use of "abuse" wasn't meant, consciously or not, to evoke images of domestic abuse.
Yes, words have different meanings (abuse being applicable to a range of situations), but many words can also be used synonymously (such as using literally any other word than abuse to refer to displeasing customers). Other words could have been used instead of the ones that were, and I'll judge on the words that were chosen to be used, and the context they were used in - and my judgement isn't as sympathetic as yours.

So yeah, you might be critical of people being opposed to the use of that term, but I have to ask "why was that word used, and not another less loaded one"?

SemperMortis wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

This just happens to be a fight taking place in the VERY large Charadon sector.

Here is a thought, if the campaign doesn't prominently feature Orkz....choose a sector that doesn't prominently feature orkz.

Because they presumably want it on Metalica. Guess where Metalica is.

I know, crazy thought, logic and all, but I feel like that would have been a better look than inventing a conflict on metallica which is literally IN THE PATH OF THE CURRENT WAAAAGH of the arch arsonist. I even posted a link showing the current ork empires and where the Waaagh's are and where they are going. The Arch Arsonist WAAAAGH is so big/powerful that its split into several smaller WAAAAGHS going in different directions with 2 of them going right by Metallica.

Did you read where it says "Act 1"? All I'm saying is that I'd be very surprised if in future acts, as the conflict escalates, more Orks will gravitate towards Metalica.
Like how in Vigilus, a setting strongly linked to Chaos and the whole Great Rift, Chaos didn't immediately show up?

If Orks don't show up *at all* in the whole story, yeah, I'll jump straight in on the "they've forgotten the Orks", but it's Act 1. In much the same way that it was a slow burner for Chaos involvement on Vigilus, so too, I hope, it will be for Orks in Charadon.

 Gert wrote:
Vigilus book 1 was set around the War of Beasts against the Orks and GSC who rose up at the same time. Not sure where "relegated to the background" features in that.
And once again for like the eighth time in this thread, War of Rust is in the Charadon sector, which in turn is in Ultima Segmentum, where the Forge World of Metalica resides. The Death Guard attacks Metalica from their base in the Scourge Stars, which is in Ultima Segmentum. This is Book 1 that coincides with the release of Codex DG, Druhkari, Admech, and presumably Knights. Orks will probably be in Book 2 as the sucker punch. GW is adding to Imperial problems in the sector, not writing the Orks away. You are allowed to be mad your faction didn't get a book first but Orks just got their main character redone as well as a special edition mini. Orks also have one of the most updated model lines, boohoo you didn't get as many releases as the faction that drives the sales of the game.

Show me where I said that orkz didn't get enough releases? I was pointing out that the "Vigilus" campaign was the first MAJOR ork release in years and they didn't even factor into the campaign's real intent which turned into Abaddon the armless losing another campaign.

But I do love your mindset, "You just got a new ghaz sculpt updated from failcast and a special mini!" And in that time frame how many Primaris Lieutenants came out

As far as "Updated model lines" not even close, they are "updated" because GW got rid of a bunch of the older models without replacing them. So yeah, they are "updated" in the sense that the average age is relatively younger than say Eldar, but only because we LOST options, not because GW updated them.

This thread did not start the best but the spiral of rudeness it went into is really quiet incredible, and not in a good way. Warnings and suspensions have been handed out. In the future please remember rule 1 and actually abide by it.