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Xwing used that kind of mechanic where it allowed you to use skills.to set dice to specific values, but which could then be re-rolled if such ability was available. It would be a means by which Eldar could deliberately drain opponents CPs by forcing them to re-roll stuff that they had already succeeded at, or at least blunt the utility of re-roll auras.

Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.

Teclis in aos has a spell that double the cost of Command abilities

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.

AL has if i memeber correctly.

Y’know, I dunno about anyone else, but I’m really enjoying this thread.

What I might do at the weekend is go back through it, and compile the various suggestions for perks and tweaks into a single post (not a new thread though).

Nothing too in-depth or prescriptive. Reckon that could aid further discussion.

That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.

Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.

It's like a Blue counter and control deck in Magic the Gathering, which fits very much with an Eldar playstyle. Again how is this that different from Doom which is basically directly cursing enemy units as well? Also it could actually improve effective Eldar survivability in a way that the current Fortune power does not, since many units might not have an effective save to re-roll after AP is taken into consideration.

Also the SOB have a straight boosting mechanic already. The idea was to differentiate from that. I imagined that these dice would be generated either pre-game (Farseer does a reading of runes before the battle), through CP, and/or successful use of a specific dice generating psychic power, and that like the SOB Miracle dice they would be rolled so you could get dice with a range of values, some of which may not be useful.

In any case, a counter would be just to throw so many dice that a few misses don't change the outcome. It's the same tradeoff between a few high powered shots vs many weaker shots.

Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.

All depends on the abundance of the resource.

If they can maybe affect half a dozen things over the course of the game, it’s possibly underpowered (because we roll a lot of dice).

A dozen? That’s useful, definitely, but had to be used well. Could make for a single, very poor turn for your opponent.

Two dozen? Probably overly restrictive on your opponent, as it could have a significant impact on multiple turns.

So the exact implementation is difficult to judge right now, but as a mechanic it’s spot on for Craftworld Eldar. A balancing factor could be to declare their usage before the dice are rolled, better representing this is prediction rather than direct interference?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.

All depends on the abundance of the resource.

If they can maybe affect half a dozen things over the course of the game, it’s possibly underpowered (because we roll a lot of dice).

A dozen? That’s useful, definitely, but had to be used well. Could make for a single, very poor turn for your opponent.

Two dozen? Probably overly restrictive on your opponent, as it could have a significant impact on multiple turns.

So the exact implementation is difficult to judge right now, but as a mechanic it’s spot on for Craftworld Eldar. A balancing factor could be to declare their usage before the dice are rolled, better representing this is prediction rather than direct interference?

The SOB Miracle dice are declared before the dice are rolled so yes this could be similar in that regard. The idea would be to a few strategic nudges of fate at critical moments rather than just total shut down of everything an opponent does.

I don't think there have been many people saying the Miracle dice and Acts of Faith are unfun or overpowered, even though as the example I gave, an Ebon Chalce SOB force (which gets an automatic "6" Miracle die at the beginning of the game) could therefore know with certainty that one to-hit or to-wound would be an automatic "natural" success with the potential to trigger exploding 6's.

 InVerno wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.

Teclis in aos has a spell that double the cost of Command abilities

Sounds like you may already know of something that is about to be a thing in 40K.

There is the Callidus Assassin, which makes strats cost more.

On the dice swapping, maybe allow a once per turn ‘choose after they’ve rolled’ option if you’ve got a Farseer in play?

Cronch wrote:That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.

Yup, seems more of tzeentch thing than eldar too.

Iracundus wrote:

Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.

It's like a Blue counter and control deck in Magic the Gathering, which fits very much with an Eldar playstyle. Again how is this that different from Doom which is basically directly cursing enemy units as well? Also it could actually improve effective Eldar survivability in a way that the current Fortune power does not, since many units might not have an effective save to re-roll after AP is taken into consideration.

Also the SOB have a straight boosting mechanic already. The idea was to differentiate from that. I imagined that these dice would be generated either pre-game (Farseer does a reading of runes before the battle), through CP, and/or successful use of a specific dice generating psychic power, and that like the SOB Miracle dice they would be rolled so you could get dice with a range of values, some of which may not be useful.

In any case, a counter would be just to throw so many dice that a few misses don't change the outcome. It's the same tradeoff between a few high powered shots vs many weaker shots.

The mechanics of 9th ed 40k are already far too much of a card game that happens to involve miniatures. Not playing a wargame using battlefield tactics, but trying to be better at using game mechanics. Let's not double down on that.

Iracundus wrote:


It's like a Blue counter and control deck in Magic the Gathering, which fits very much with an Eldar playstyle. Again how is this that different from Doom which is basically directly cursing enemy units as well? Also it could actually improve effective Eldar survivability in a way that the current Fortune power does not, since many units might not have an effective save to re-roll after AP is taken into consideration.

Becuase doom or SoB miracle dice buff your stuff. And because a lot of armies require a one turn alfa strike to cripple the other army, eldar being able to turn it off would mean those armies would just stop working.

Also blue is most hated colour in MtG, and that is without faction loyality. For w40k it would be even worse, there is a big difference between being very good and there for tought to play and making it impossible for people to play their army. We already had that in 8th, when eldar armies were running around with -2 to hit and were mostly made out of flyers. No one, aside for eldar players, liked that.

More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.

Through all of this, Eldar in the lore are praised for their speed, flexibility, and foresight. But really, only the SPEED element actually translates into the rules. Eldar units are decidedly non-flexible, and their foresight isn't really represented at all.

I'm curious about an approach where things like exarch powers provide unit buffs that you invoke at the start of each turn (or maybe just declared at the start of battle after you see your opponnent's list) that allows you to adjust the unit's capabilities on the fly. Adding Warlocks back as guardian squad leaders with non-psyker psychic-like powers to variable buff/support their units in response to the situation at hand would seem to go nicely with the spirit of the list.

I guess the issue I see is that every eldar unit feels like a one-trick pony, in a game where multi-role and durable units are increasingly important. If Eldar can be reconceptualization a way that let's them keep their sting and relative fragility, but gives them more flexibility for responding to your opponents list or the situation at hand, it could be a nice improvement.

Karol wrote:
. We already had that in 8th, when eldar armies were running around with -2 to hit and were mostly made out of flyers. No one, aside for eldar players, liked that.

eldar players also disliked that....

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With regard to Farseers and Warlocks.

They are of course central to Eldar armies. And its certainly true their tricks really haven’t changed over the year. Doom, Fortune, Eldritch Storm et al have been staples since pretty much forever (though I will double check my RT collection to see if I can pin down a definitive beginning).

And I very much agree that when we look at other forces in the game, they can pull the traditional tricks. But, feeding into the core theme of this thread? They got other tricks too.

Perhaps we need to see a diversification of Farseers and Warlocks. If we look at Necron Crypteks, we might find some inspiration, even if a direct copy isn’t exactly desirable.

Each of the four current flavours of Cryptek do different things for your force, but they all broadly remain Unit Support, as is also the traditional role of the Warlock, whether as a unit champion upgrade, or a roving independent model.

If so, what specialisations/sub classes would you suggest?

I don't think we really need a Cryptek style of diversification, Craftworlds already have Farseers, Warlocks and Spiritseers, GW just needs to lean more heavily into their roles. Make Spiritseers abilities more specific to buffing Wraith Constructs, Warlocks going back to Guardian Squad leaders can have their abilities aimed at buffing the basic line infantry with Farseers giving more general army wide buffs which could tie in nicely with the the Fate dice system thats been discussed over the last page. Heck, it makes for a great excuse to get the Bonesinger back in plastic, have them specialised in support vehicles. You could even keep the lone HQ version of the Warlock as a more experience version of the squad leader with a greater emphasis on combat and supporting Aspect Warriors.

Karol wrote:

Becuase doom or SoB miracle dice buff your stuff.

Doom is equivalent to a Toughness debuff. A Miracle die making an automatic 6++ save successful is mathematically equivalent to a die converting a to-hit roll to a failed 1. Doom and Miracle dice are the same as debuffs. Doom is described as cursing the enemy with bad luck, and other Eldar powers have been shown as basically debuffing various enemy things like saves or Strength.

Sounds more like you don't like Blue in Magic but it is as valid a playstyle as any others. The whole point of the Eldar is that they don't fight "fair" at least as the Imperium sees it.

"Stay still so I can hit you". Of course the Eldar aren't going to do that. One side's "fair" usually means "Cater to my strengths and don't exploit my weaknesses"

If it means armies have to do more than just being a one turn alpha strike to cripple the other side, then I see switching that off as a good thing.

In any case what people have been suggesting here would still require some thought before use, just as Miracle dice do. Squander Miracle dice on the wrong rolls and you can still fail. And weight of numbers or rather weight of dice rolls would still offset any roll substitution. Just don't put all your eggs in one basket with single rolls.

 Mezmorki wrote:
More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.

I think you might be making things more complicated than they need to be.

For example - digging up thread from 9 months ago - you look at fire dragons. Its a unit, it shoots melta.

Is this bad? Well... Eradicators/MM Attack Bikes and Retributors say no. Its actually quite decent.

The problem is you are paying 23 points for 1 12" melta shot. Now if say they had 18" range - which GW could change with the type of a keyboard - then they'd be quite a bit better. Good enough? No - but moving in the right direction. I'm not sure you want to re-invent the wheel on that.

In the same way I don't think Banshee's are specialised - they are just *bad*. They've *finally* got S4 with the power swords - but with just 2 1 damage attacks... they still don't really do anything to anything.

Tyel wrote:

 Mezmorki wrote:
More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.

I think you might be making things more complicated than they need to be.

For example - digging up thread from 9 months ago - you look at fire dragons. Its a unit, it shoots melta.

Is this bad? Well... Eradicators/MM Attack Bikes and Retributors say no. Its actually quite decent.

The problem is you are paying 23 points for 1 12" melta shot. Now if say they had 18" range - which GW could change with the type of a keyboard - then they'd be quite a bit better. Good enough? No - but moving in the right direction. I'm not sure you want to re-invent the wheel on that.

In the same way I don't think Banshee's are specialised - they are just *bad*. They've *finally* got S4 with the power swords - but with just 2 1 damage attacks... they still don't really do anything to anything.

The Banshees getting a +1S is similar to the Dire Avengers going from 12" to 18" catapults. It is a tacit admission that the old idea from a previous edition no longer works.

Banshees now hitting at S4 also call into question the point of Striking Scorpions, who lack the high AP.

Iracundus wrote:
A Miracle die making an automatic 6++ save successful is mathematically equivalent to a die converting a to-hit roll to a failed 1

Not entirely accurate as rolling a 1 can cause a gun to blow up in your face, rolling a 6 can cause multiple hits, and not everything allows a save.

If none of that was the case though there is still the percieved difference between affecting your own rolls and affecting your opponents, even if the outcome is literally the same. Miracle dice don't change anything that might not have otherwise happend on your roll, and the faction itself it written in such a way that they can't double-dip it with bonus effects on their 6s (because Eldar stole their divine guidance rules back in 6th edition and still haven't given them back :p).

Though, without reading back through all of the thread, this still seems like triple-buffing with an extra mechanic to add on top of the psychic powers and characters.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Yes. Callidus assassin, first round only, on a 4+ adds 1CP to a stratagem cost (excluding all pre-battle stratagems).

So... in the case of "Fate" dice causing a hit roll to be a "1"... wouldn't the opponent be able to spend a CP to re-roll that die roll like any other failed check? Unless of course there is a stipulation that they would not be able to re-roll that die... (Personally, I like Fate for the ability name, as we all know that Fate is a b...)

I think that is the idea, yea. At least as presented.

SaganGree wrote:
So... in the case of "Fate" dice causing a hit roll to be a "1"... wouldn't the opponent be able to spend a CP to re-roll that die roll like any other failed check? Unless of course there is a stipulation that they would not be able to re-roll that die... (Personally, I like Fate for the ability name, as we all know that Fate is a b...)

I wouldn’t be against that. After all, it’s still draining a CP, and in a specific phase.

Would come down to how the rule is set out, as one could count the Fate Point thing as a re-roll, albeit with a pre-determined result.

Tyel wrote:

 Mezmorki wrote:
More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.

I think you might be making things more complicated than they need to be.

For example - digging up thread from 9 months ago - you look at fire dragons. Its a unit, it shoots melta.

Is this bad? Well... Eradicators/MM Attack Bikes and Retributors say no. Its actually quite decent.

The problem is you are paying 23 points for 1 12" melta shot. Now if say they had 18" range - which GW could change with the type of a keyboard - then they'd be quite a bit better. Good enough? No - but moving in the right direction. I'm not sure you want to re-invent the wheel on that.

In the same way I don't think Banshee's are specialised - they are just *bad*. They've *finally* got S4 with the power swords - but with just 2 1 damage attacks... they still don't really do anything to anything.

Well, to elaborate on my proposal and to use the fire dragon example....

What if 12" range and the S8 melta shot is the baseline, and then an exarch power can be called out each to do ONE of the following for the unit for this turn (determined before shooting)
* Add +1 damage to the damage rolls
* Loses melta ability but fires at double range
* Melta weapons become assault 2, but only deals 1 damage max
* +2 strength
* Fire shield - Unit gains 5+ invulnerable save until next turn
* something else?

That is what I mean by taking the core idea - dudes armed with melta guns, and give them flexibility in the game to adapt to different situations. If you bring fire dragons and your opponent has no big vehicles or MC's, then you can adapt the attack profile/capabilities to better deal with what you're facing.

 Mezmorki wrote:

Through all of this, Eldar in the lore are praised for their speed, flexibility, and foresight. But really, only the SPEED element actually translates into the rules. Eldar units are decidedly non-flexible, and their foresight isn't really represented at all.

This is one of my beefs with the current setup. For the 7th to 8th transition, Eldar lost Battle Focus, where they could get a bunch of extra movement, and traded it for an extra 1" on their movement stat. This was in addition to losing the Initiative stat. That was a rough deal for them on the "speed" front.

To be honest.....

Eldar tech is meant to be superior to Imperial.

Aspect Warriors are meant to have the Dogs Danglies of Eldar war tech.

Fire Dragons. As is (maybe longer range?). But Damage is D3+3 at maximum range. And flat 6 at half range.

Eff. Me. That. Is. Scary.

Downside? They’re still squishy Eldar. If you didn’t deal with them before they turned your tank to vapour, that’s entirely on you.

Make Eldar Scary Again!

Remember - I’m still not an Eldar player.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To be honest.....

Eldar tech is meant to be superior to Imperial.

Aspect Warriors are meant to have the Dogs Danglies of Eldar war tech.

Fire Dragons. As is (maybe longer range?). But Damage is D3+3 at maximum range. And flat 6 at half range.

Eff. Me. That. Is. Scary.

Downside? They’re still squishy Eldar. If you didn’t deal with them before they turned your tank to vapour, that’s entirely on you.

Make Eldar Scary Again!

Remember - I’m still not an Eldar player.

Eldar Tech has often been a sort of side-grade to Imperial tech. In 2nd they used the same Lascannons and Missile Launchers, they just had some of their own advanced lasers too, which took the place of big physical ordinance that the Imperium had. The Plasma Cannon is roughly equivalent to the Starcannon these days. . . . Unfortunately now the Imperium has Melta Rifles. . . sigh. I think extending the range of Fusion Guns would be reasonable, at least. the Warp Spiders Death Spinners need some help too. Shuriken Catapults, etc.

I would think the the Striking Scorpions ought to be rolling with more, stronger attacks for anti horde business, while the Banshees should probably be rocking 2D on their swords.

(also not an Eldar player.)

Yeah, given the fact that SM grunts can have more attacks than an Eldar Character and hit harder.... and wound better... and are harder to wound... hmm...