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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:
I'd give Banshees D2 phase swords that ignore invulns.

They're not fething phase blades!

Talk about escalation... sheesh!

They could be. Because armies need ways to beat invulns.

 T800Necron wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:
I'd give Banshees D2 phase swords that ignore invulns.

They're not fething phase blades!

Talk about escalation... sheesh!

They could be. Because armies need ways to beat invulns.

I get that people want to invalidate invuls because bladeguard units are obnoxious. This would be a huge kick in the teeth to demon players. There’s a huge difference between 2+/4++ and just a 5++. For that matter I’m sure the dark eldar players would object to shadowfirkds and whychs getting clowned into like that too.

 T800Necron wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:
I'd give Banshees D2 phase swords that ignore invulns.

They're not fething phase blades!

Talk about escalation... sheesh!

They could be. Because armies need ways to beat invulns.

Yeah typically the way you get around high invuls is with mortal wounds, something eldar don't have an issue with given the number of psykers they have. wanting 2 wounds, ignores invuls etc, this sounds like a "I want to effortlessly kill bladeguard" wishlist rather then a sensable proposal

Mortals on 6's in addition to regular damage, either as a datacard ability or a strat or some combination of the two- like Banshees have it on a datacard, but other aspects can access it via strat.

Another place to draw inspiration from could be the admech book. Autowounding infantry on 5+ to hit could help cover some of the issues with the low strength.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Another place to draw inspiration from could be the admech book. Autowounding infantry on 5+ to hit could help cover some of the issues with the low strength.

That would help against T8+ Infantry.

Don’t think those exist.

Edit: ignore me, I read that as on the WOUND roll, not hit roll. My bad!

I think the real question is "what are howling banshees supposed to be good at killing?"

Now, back in 5th edition when I started power weapons just OUTRIGHT ignored armor saves, which meant they where pretty solid, able to deal fairly signfcigent damage to marines... Now I don't thik howling banshees should be given rediculasly OP rules so they can butcher Marines with ease (to be blunt Marines got their boost because Marines where told their army was supposed to be tough but everyone was packing weapons that could kill them with ease)

IMHO a +1 STR -3 AP power sword would make banshees solid. yp their attacks by one, and give them "always fights first" a base of 2D is possiable but I'm not sure we should throw out 2D weapons overly much as it turns the differance between 1 and 2 wound infantry as mostly theoretical, and it's not fair to marines to pay 7 more points for a tac marine then sisters pay for a SOB when the advantages are all completely irrelevant because everyone is using 2D weapons I'd rather see Banshees given extra attacks to make them marine killers over 2d weapons because of that.

The problem with aspect warriors is that they are supposed to be specialists perfecting that one facet of war and so REALLY good at it, while being useless at other things.

However this should be represented, it shouldn't result in them being mediocre in the job they're supposed to be specialists at.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:
I'd give Banshees D2 phase swords that ignore invulns.

They're not fething phase blades!

Talk about escalation... sheesh!

They could be. Because armies need ways to beat invulns.

I get that people want to invalidate invuls because bladeguard units are obnoxious. This would be a huge kick in the teeth to demon players. There’s a huge difference between 2+/4++ and just a 5++. For that matter I’m sure the dark eldar players would object to shadowfirkds and whychs getting clowned into like that too.

Frankly, with the invuln saturation (not bladeguard necessarily, they are irrelevant to meta) I think all armies should have ways to invalidate them. Especially because apparently GW hands them out for free, as in doesn't charge for them on the models. The 5++ on demons isn't the issue, but the 4++ on a deathshroud sure is. That's what I'm thinking of here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:
I'd give Banshees D2 phase swords that ignore invulns.

They're not fething phase blades!

Talk about escalation... sheesh!

They could be. Because armies need ways to beat invulns.

Yeah typically the way you get around high invuls is with mortal wounds, something eldar don't have an issue with given the number of psykers they have. wanting 2 wounds, ignores invuls etc, this sounds like a "I want to effortlessly kill bladeguard" wishlist rather then a sensable proposal

Why are people bringing up bladeguard of all units? I don't even think about marines when I build necron lists. They are that irrelevant already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the real question is "what are howling banshees supposed to be good at killing?"

Now, back in 5th edition when I started power weapons just OUTRIGHT ignored armor saves, which meant they where pretty solid, able to deal fairly signfcigent damage to marines... Now I don't thik howling banshees should be given rediculasly OP rules so they can butcher Marines with ease (to be blunt Marines got their boost because Marines where told their army was supposed to be tough but everyone was packing weapons that could kill them with ease)

IMHO a +1 STR -3 AP power sword would make banshees solid. yp their attacks by one, and give them "always fights first" a base of 2D is possiable but I'm not sure we should throw out 2D weapons overly much as it turns the differance between 1 and 2 wound infantry as mostly theoretical, and it's not fair to marines to pay 7 more points for a tac marine then sisters pay for a SOB when the advantages are all completely irrelevant because everyone is using 2D weapons I'd rather see Banshees given extra attacks to make them marine killers over 2d weapons because of that.

At this point, banshees should kill marines with ease. That's the way 9th is headed. Gimping Eldar to try to save a codex that's already irrelevant is doing a disservice to Eldar.

 T800Necron wrote:


Frankly, with the invuln saturation (not bladeguard necessarily, they are irrelevant to meta) I think all armies should have ways to invalidate them. Especially because apparently GW hands them out for free, as in doesn't charge for them on the models. The 5++ on demons isn't the issue, but the 4++ on a deathshroud sure is. That's what I'm thinking of here.

Why are people bringing up bladeguard of all units? I don't even think about marines when I build necron lists. They are that irrelevant already.

https://bloodofkittens.com/9th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ Well they show up in several of the tournament winning marine lists, so I think it's safe to say that they're not irrelevant. Also you completely ignore the most common army in the game when making a list? That's a bold strategy right there.

The 4++ to the Deathshroud is very nice but hardly what makes the unit. 3 wounds and -1 damage really drive the durability because it will take 2-3 unsaved wounds from anything short of an anti tank gun. Ironically the deathshroud wouldn't suffer too much from D2 and ignoring the invul because they're still only wounded on 5+ and will only take 1 damage for each unsaved wound. On the other hand the demons who only have a 5++ suddenly have almost no save on a T3 body. Gimping demons to save the Eldar is an equal disservice btw. Harlequins and Custodes will also take it on the nose if you go down that route too.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:


Frankly, with the invuln saturation (not bladeguard necessarily, they are irrelevant to meta) I think all armies should have ways to invalidate them. Especially because apparently GW hands them out for free, as in doesn't charge for them on the models. The 5++ on demons isn't the issue, but the 4++ on a deathshroud sure is. That's what I'm thinking of here.

Why are people bringing up bladeguard of all units? I don't even think about marines when I build necron lists. They are that irrelevant already.

https://bloodofkittens.com/9th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ Well they show up in several of the tournament winning marine lists, so I think it's safe to say that they're not irrelevant. Also you completely ignore the most common army in the game when making a list? That's a bold strategy right there.

The 4++ to the Deathshroud is very nice but hardly what makes the unit. 3 wounds and -1 damage really drive the durability because it will take 2-3 unsaved wounds from anything short of an anti tank gun. Ironically the deathshroud wouldn't suffer too much from D2 and ignoring the invul because they're still only wounded on 5+ and will only take 1 damage for each unsaved wound. On the other hand the demons who only have a 5++ suddenly have almost no save on a T3 body. Gimping demons to save the Eldar is an equal disservice btw. Harlequins and Custodes will also take it on the nose if you go down that route too.

Custodes almost universally have a 2+ armor, so they can take losing their invuln. Most would save on a 5+ (one point worse than normal), with anyone equipped with a Storm Shield on a 4+ (which is ALSO one point worse than normal-Custodes can still get a 3+ Invuln with their Storm Shields).

But Harlequins, Daemons, and some miscellaneous other units would get dunked on hard by that, yeah.

Problem being is that SOMETHING should dunk on invulns are handed out for free and with frequency. It's unfortunate that so many armies have stolen the demons' gimmick but without more invuln counters, the game will be forever bifurcated into the haves and the have nots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

 T800Necron wrote:


Frankly, with the invuln saturation (not bladeguard necessarily, they are irrelevant to meta) I think all armies should have ways to invalidate them. Especially because apparently GW hands them out for free, as in doesn't charge for them on the models. The 5++ on demons isn't the issue, but the 4++ on a deathshroud sure is. That's what I'm thinking of here.

Why are people bringing up bladeguard of all units? I don't even think about marines when I build necron lists. They are that irrelevant already.

https://bloodofkittens.com/9th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ Well they show up in several of the tournament winning marine lists, so I think it's safe to say that they're not irrelevant. Also you completely ignore the most common army in the game when making a list? That's a bold strategy right there.

The 4++ to the Deathshroud is very nice but hardly what makes the unit. 3 wounds and -1 damage really drive the durability because it will take 2-3 unsaved wounds from anything short of an anti tank gun. Ironically the deathshroud wouldn't suffer too much from D2 and ignoring the invul because they're still only wounded on 5+ and will only take 1 damage for each unsaved wound. On the other hand the demons who only have a 5++ suddenly have almost no save on a T3 body. Gimping demons to save the Eldar is an equal disservice btw. Harlequins and Custodes will also take it on the nose if you go down that route too.

Not at all. If I can kill/manage DG, I can kill marines. Given the power level of marines and then the level of DE and Admech, they are irrelevant from a planning standpoint. If marine players throw themselves like zerglings at tournaments, I guess a few are bound to do well.

I'm not talking army-wide ignore invulns. But each list should have a way to ignore invulns and/or do extra damage to units with invulns. Invulns need a downside because GW wont' charge for them. It's clear from recent releases that invulns do not have a significant cost and appear to be tacked on where they deem them appropriate.

Speaking as someone who actually fields banshees quite a bit, banshees are actually pretty close to feeling "right" for their points cost. The +1 strength to power swords has done wonders for them. Against marine specifically, the buff to power swords was offset by gaining an additional wound on a lot of marine models, but banshees are about as lethal as I'd expect them to be against non-marine targets. Especially if I happen to be running the Hunters of Ancient Relics trait for +1 Attacks near objective. At roughly their current price, I'd probably just...

* Give them 1 or 2 extra attacks (probably happening based on the new drukhari changes)
* Make the executioner +2 strength instead of +1 strength (it got a relative stealth nerf when power swords got better) and make it flat 2 damage.

And that's all they really need. I could wishlist for days, but those minor changes would, on paper, make them modestly killy without turning them into an over the top blender unit and would give them reliable tools for upping their damage against marines specifically.

Keep in mind, incubi exist and seem to be considered pretty good at the moment. An incubi shouldn't just be a slower banshee, but that's how a lot of the damage boosting suggestions come across as to me. It's okay for banshees to be slightly less killy than incubi. They have speed and their screams to help balance things out.

Now, that's all assuming that banshees remain close to their current points cost. You could do all sorts of crazy stuff if you wanted to make banshees 20 points a piece or whatever, but at that point we're talking about an overhaul rather than a "fix." And at that point, you'd probably be looking at giving a similar treatment to incubi to avoid making them look like chumps compared to craftworlders.

----------------
Regarding speed-as-defense: My favorite pitches right now are these:

* -1 to enemy to-wound rolls against craftworlders that advanced or charged in the previous craftworlder turn. Possibly replaces battle focus.
* Give them a 5+ "dodge save" if they advanced or charged in the previous crafworlder turn. A "dodge save" basically being an invulnerable save that you take after failing an armour or invul save. Different from a Feel No Pain in that you only roll once per wound, and a success negates all damage. Possibly replaces battle focus. Easier to understand conceptually than the to-wound penalty, but also clunkier and more time-consuming.
* Basically give all craftworlders a move-shoot-move mechanic again. So in the charge phase, units that don't declare charges can instead move up to 7" . Was super annoying in previous editions, but the smaller board size, importance of objectives, and increased mobility of 9th edition might solve the annoying problems. Definitely felt fluffy when we had it back in 7th.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Speaking as someone who actually fields banshees quite a bit, banshees are actually pretty close to feeling "right" for their points cost. The +1 strength to power swords has done wonders for them. Against marine specifically, the buff to power swords was offset by gaining an additional wound on a lot of marine models, but banshees are about as lethal as I'd expect them to be against non-marine targets. Especially if I happen to be running the Hunters of Ancient Relics trait for +1 Attacks near objective. At roughly their current price, I'd probably just...

* Give them 1 or 2 extra attacks (probably happening based on the new drukhari changes)
* Make the executioner +2 strength instead of +1 strength (it got a relative stealth nerf when power swords got better) and make it flat 2 damage.

And that's all they really need. I could wishlist for days, but those minor changes would, on paper, make them modestly killy without turning them into an over the top blender unit and would give them reliable tools for upping their damage against marines specifically.

Keep in mind, incubi exist and seem to be considered pretty good at the moment. An incubi shouldn't just be a slower banshee, but that's how a lot of the damage boosting suggestions come across as to me. It's okay for banshees to be slightly less killy than incubi. They have speed and their screams to help balance things out.

Now, that's all assuming that banshees remain close to their current points cost. You could do all sorts of crazy stuff if you wanted to make banshees 20 points a piece or whatever, but at that point we're talking about an overhaul rather than a "fix." And at that point, you'd probably be looking at giving a similar treatment to incubi to avoid making them look like chumps compared to craftworlders.

----------------
Regarding speed-as-defense: My favorite pitches right now are these:

* -1 to enemy to-wound rolls against craftworlders that advanced or charged in the previous craftworlder turn. Possibly replaces battle focus.
* Give them a 5+ "dodge save" if they advanced or charged in the previous crafworlder turn. A "dodge save" basically being an invulnerable save that you take after failing an armour or invul save. Different from a Feel No Pain in that you only roll once per wound, and a success negates all damage. Possibly replaces battle focus. Easier to understand conceptually than the to-wound penalty, but also clunkier and more time-consuming.
* Basically give all craftworlders a move-shoot-move mechanic again. So in the charge phase, units that don't declare charges can instead move up to 7" . Was super annoying in previous editions, but the smaller board size, importance of objectives, and increased mobility of 9th edition might solve the annoying problems. Definitely felt fluffy when we had it back in 7th.

So I read this and got near the end and was thinking "but Wyldhunt, Incubi are already in the 20ppm ball park". Then I looked it up, and they're 16ppm!?!?!?!? Dang that Dark Eldar book was nuts.

As usual, I agree with all of this. I don't want Banshees to be Incubi-level busted. I want them to be more elite in general, but Banshees are supposed to be one of the more frequent/plentiful Aspect shrines, so you probably don't want to make them too elite (for instance, there should be more Banshees out there than Incubi; with the fluff around Incubi, those should be rare as hell but whatever.)

I think I like your suggestions, but at this point, I'd change the Banshee Mask to ASL since negating overwatch is pretty niche in terms of use case now. Maybe that's too powerful and would require additional points nerfs, but again it makes the Banshees as some mirror of Incubi without treading all over them.

problem on ASL alone is as done in the math on the last page as it currently stands they still get wrecked by a basic space marine troop. pretty similar results vs necron warriors and orks, with orks becoming T5 they will be even worse off there. what is supposed to be a glass cannon is more like a glass even with strike first is at best a glass letter opener with a rounded edge.

Banshees are actually close to where they need to be. As Galas mentioned, it just takes a few tweaks (such as zephyrim) to make them work. I think the mask ignoring overwatch is now not a great position, I would simply leave that as an Exarch power choice. Masks should now be +1 to wound vs non vehicles/titanic if unit charged, was charged or heroically intervened. They also need to be given additional attacks. Banshees should be 3 base, 4 for the Exarch (remember, Exarchs used to be marine captain level characters). keep the Acrobatic rule as is.
Exarch table needs some modification too...Whirling Blades shoud be changed to +1 to hit for the unit while Exarch in unit. Decapitating strikes should be for the unit, but change it on unmodified to wound instead of hit. Nerve shredding Shriek should force one unit with Engagement Range to always strike last. I woudl probably drop Disarming Strike and replace with Ignore Overwatch.

Wyldhunt wrote:

* Give them 1 or 2 extra attacks (probably happening based on the new drukhari changes)
* Make the executioner +2 strength instead of +1 strength (it got a relative stealth nerf when power swords got better) and make it flat 2 damage.

When they got rid of Initiative I was wondering if they'd bump up the Attacks of high Init models. Plus with Aspect Warriors who train endlessly to be great at one thing the number of melee attacks they have is very underwhelming.

I'd recommend +1A to DA, Banshees, Scorpions, Shining Spears and an additional +1 to the Exarch. Make the leader of that shrine a supreme combatant. For Banshee's I'd also consider something like a hacking advance, every 6 to Hit generates +1 Hit. For Scorpions who specialize in sneak attacks I'd give them an improvement when they charge, perhaps Mandiblasters are 4+ on the round they charge into combat. Also bring back the double chainsabres!

for scorpions i might just copy paste space marine one of +1 attack when they charge or are charged along with more attacks.

With Scorpions I was thinking since they're supposed to be strike from the shadows type of unit then their ability should be when charging but not when charged.

Then again this is Eldar we're talking about, so them getting charged could be a "Haha, you've fallen into our ambush" type of play.

 bullyboy wrote:
Banshees are actually close to where they need to be. As Galas mentioned, it just takes a few tweaks (such as zephyrim) to make them work. I think the mask ignoring overwatch is now not a great position, I would simply leave that as an Exarch power choice. Masks should now be +1 to wound vs non vehicles/titanic if unit charged, was charged or heroically intervened. They also need to be given additional attacks. Banshees should be 3 base, 4 for the Exarch (remember, Exarchs used to be marine captain level characters). keep the Acrobatic rule as is.
Exarch table needs some modification too...Whirling Blades shoud be changed to +1 to hit for the unit while Exarch in unit. Decapitating strikes should be for the unit, but change it on unmodified to wound instead of hit. Nerve shredding Shriek should force one unit with Engagement Range to always strike last. I woudl probably drop Disarming Strike and replace with Ignore Overwatch.

You guys keep saying "Banshees are close" but I feel like giving something free attacks and +1 to wound while staying at current point levels is not really close

In any case, if we can expect buffs of that magnitude, I will be happy. I bet we'll get them too, Banshees are clearly not doing what they're supposed to and even GW has to see that. Plus, it's a nice flashy plastic kit that probably hasn't seen that many purchases given the crappiness of the unit. I know GW doesn't always overtune new kits, but it certainly does happen on occasion and this seems like a good occasion for it.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Banshees are actually close to where they need to be. As Galas mentioned, it just takes a few tweaks (such as zephyrim) to make them work. I think the mask ignoring overwatch is now not a great position, I would simply leave that as an Exarch power choice. Masks should now be +1 to wound vs non vehicles/titanic if unit charged, was charged or heroically intervened. They also need to be given additional attacks. Banshees should be 3 base, 4 for the Exarch (remember, Exarchs used to be marine captain level characters). keep the Acrobatic rule as is.
Exarch table needs some modification too...Whirling Blades shoud be changed to +1 to hit for the unit while Exarch in unit. Decapitating strikes should be for the unit, but change it on unmodified to wound instead of hit. Nerve shredding Shriek should force one unit with Engagement Range to always strike last. I woudl probably drop Disarming Strike and replace with Ignore Overwatch.

You guys keep saying "Banshees are close" but I feel like giving something free attacks and +1 to wound while staying at current point levels is not really close

In any case, if we can expect buffs of that magnitude, I will be happy. I bet we'll get them too, Banshees are clearly not doing what they're supposed to and even GW has to see that. Plus, it's a nice flashy plastic kit that probably hasn't seen that many purchases given the crappiness of the unit. I know GW doesn't always overtune new kits, but it certainly does happen on occasion and this seems like a good occasion for it.

Close to marines maybe, but not close to relevant lists like Admech and Drukhari.

 T800Necron wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Banshees are actually close to where they need to be. As Galas mentioned, it just takes a few tweaks (such as zephyrim) to make them work. I think the mask ignoring overwatch is now not a great position, I would simply leave that as an Exarch power choice. Masks should now be +1 to wound vs non vehicles/titanic if unit charged, was charged or heroically intervened. They also need to be given additional attacks. Banshees should be 3 base, 4 for the Exarch (remember, Exarchs used to be marine captain level characters). keep the Acrobatic rule as is.
Exarch table needs some modification too...Whirling Blades shoud be changed to +1 to hit for the unit while Exarch in unit. Decapitating strikes should be for the unit, but change it on unmodified to wound instead of hit. Nerve shredding Shriek should force one unit with Engagement Range to always strike last. I woudl probably drop Disarming Strike and replace with Ignore Overwatch.

You guys keep saying "Banshees are close" but I feel like giving something free attacks and +1 to wound while staying at current point levels is not really close

In any case, if we can expect buffs of that magnitude, I will be happy. I bet we'll get them too, Banshees are clearly not doing what they're supposed to and even GW has to see that. Plus, it's a nice flashy plastic kit that probably hasn't seen that many purchases given the crappiness of the unit. I know GW doesn't always overtune new kits, but it certainly does happen on occasion and this seems like a good occasion for it.

Close to marines maybe, but not close to relevant lists like Admech and Drukhari.

I literally did the math on the last page, not even close to even marine troop choices. even getting the charge off on marines the banshees get slaughtered getting 3 wounds or removing 1 marine and wounding another before being wrecked

I agree with you which is why I think more robust measures are needed. If the game were balanced around the marine/necron power level, this discussion would be different. But those lists are left in the dust. Comparing to loyalist marines is not sufficient. It's more accurate to compare to DG targets or Admech targets.

Ever since GW removed initiative eldar have really struggled to find their right "feel" in the game. They require a lot of work to feel distinct from "humans with guns" and initiative/psychic phase were those features which set them apart.

With the game shifting to more "units performing actions" there is good design space for GW to give Eldar their fluff role as ancient and wise psykers. However without initiative its hard to get the feel of their agility properly translated. A lot of the dominance of Dark Eldar codex comes from the fact that their fluffy "speed" has been diluted into just "kill things fast", which is not really the same thing as graceful agility.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Ever since GW removed initiative eldar have really struggled to find their right "feel" in the game. They require a lot of work to feel distinct from "humans with guns" and initiative/psychic phase were those features which set them apart.

With the game shifting to more "units performing actions" there is good design space for GW to give Eldar their fluff role as ancient and wise psykers. However without initiative its hard to get the feel of their agility properly translated. A lot of the dominance of Dark Eldar codex comes from the fact that their fluffy "speed" has been diluted into just "kill things fast", which is not really the same thing as graceful agility.

I have elsewhere in another past thread suggested that Eldar prophecy and foresight could be represented not just by the current existing psychic powers but by a pool of dice similar to Miracle dice for SoB. However instead, these dice could replace opponent rolls, representing the Eldar having acted to bring about fates and timelines where the enemy fails. So the enemy would seem to experience extreme bad luck with targeting system failures, fumbling blows, armor giving way, etc...

If Miracle dice are considered fine, when they can basically give a guaranteed unmodified 6 on a roll, then Eldar players forcing an opponent roll to be 1 should be equivalent.

Iracundus wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Ever since GW removed initiative eldar have really struggled to find their right "feel" in the game. They require a lot of work to feel distinct from "humans with guns" and initiative/psychic phase were those features which set them apart.

With the game shifting to more "units performing actions" there is good design space for GW to give Eldar their fluff role as ancient and wise psykers. However without initiative its hard to get the feel of their agility properly translated. A lot of the dominance of Dark Eldar codex comes from the fact that their fluffy "speed" has been diluted into just "kill things fast", which is not really the same thing as graceful agility.

I have elsewhere in another past thread suggested that Eldar prophecy and foresight could be represented not just by the current existing psychic powers but by a pool of dice similar to Miracle dice for SoB. However instead, these dice could replace opponent rolls, representing the Eldar having acted to bring about fates and timelines where the enemy fails. So the enemy would seem to experience extreme bad luck with targeting system failures, fumbling blows, armor giving way, etc...

If Miracle dice are considered fine, when they can basically give a guaranteed unmodified 6 on a roll, then Eldar players forcing an opponent roll to be 1 should be equivalent.

Not necessarily.

I'm not opposed to the mechanic, but I don't think you can draw one to one equivalence between Miracle Dice and messing with opponent dice. It's a cool idea-but one that has the potential to be both broken and unfun, if handled poorly.

 bullyboy wrote:

Exarch table needs some modification too...Whirling Blades shoud be changed to +1 to hit for the unit while Exarch in unit. Decapitating strikes should be for the unit, but change it on unmodified to wound instead of hit. Nerve shredding Shriek should force one unit with Engagement Range to always strike last. I woudl probably drop Disarming Strike and replace with Ignore Overwatch.

I actually get a lot of mileage out of Disarming Strike, but only when combined with the basic War Shout (meaning I spent 1 CP to do that and thus can't do other similar combos like War Shout + the 5+++). Against any army that likes to put melee weapons on their sergeants, the combination of -1 to hit and -2 attacks can be pretty solid.

At the risk of overcomplicating things, I think it would be nice to break exarch powers up into squad-wide powers and exarch specific powers to reduce some of the competition between powers. Things like the dragons' burning fists power is cute, but you'll never take it over one of the abilities that buffs your whole squad. If you were to give exarchs a "slot" for squad-wide powers and a "slot" for exarch-only powers, you could get some interesting combos and really redefine how your squad performs; especially once you factor in exarch weapons. The hawk power that makes your exarch more killy is a lot more appealing if you can combine it with the Withdraw power. The dragon power to do mortals on overwatch with a dragon's breath flamer is a little more desirable if you can also have the dragon's bite ability (meaning the survivors will be shooting meltas into the face of whatever charged them). I won't be terribly upset if they don't go this route, but it seems like a good way to put more levers on squads that tend to be kind of cookie cutter.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
With the game shifting to more "units performing actions" there is good design space for GW to give Eldar their fluff role as ancient and wise psykers. However without initiative its hard to get the feel of their agility properly translated. A lot of the dominance of Dark Eldar codex comes from the fact that their fluffy "speed" has been diluted into just "kill things fast", which is not really the same thing as graceful agility.

I think part of the problem is a blurring of faction identities, with rules that were once unique to 1-2 factions either being handed out willy-nilly or else made into universal rules.

To take an example from recent editions, it used to be that Dark Eldar vehicles could move and fire at full effect. In 8th, vehicles in other armies suffered a -1 penalty to hit from moving anf firing heavy weapons, but any heavy weapon on a DE Vehicle became Assault instead. However, as soon as 9th rolled around, this just became a universal rule - so now *every* vehicle in *every* army can move and shoot without penalty.

Not only that but Dark Eldar vehicles actually got worse, as their Heavy weapons are no longer upgraded to Assault when mounted on vehicles (so their vehicles didn't even maintain the advantage of being able to Advance and still fire 'Heavy' weapons).

I think this sort of thing is what really hurts the feel of the Eldar factions. Because even when their vehicles are faster, the difference is almost never significant enough to really make them feel fast or mobile.

Hell, throughout 8th, my Tallarn Imperial Guard felt significantly faster than my Dark Eldar. Because being able to move 6+d6" every turn and fire all non-heavy weapons without penalty felt a hell of a lot faster than moving 7 or 8".

 JNAProductions wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Ever since GW removed initiative eldar have really struggled to find their right "feel" in the game. They require a lot of work to feel distinct from "humans with guns" and initiative/psychic phase were those features which set them apart.

With the game shifting to more "units performing actions" there is good design space for GW to give Eldar their fluff role as ancient and wise psykers. However without initiative its hard to get the feel of their agility properly translated. A lot of the dominance of Dark Eldar codex comes from the fact that their fluffy "speed" has been diluted into just "kill things fast", which is not really the same thing as graceful agility.

I have elsewhere in another past thread suggested that Eldar prophecy and foresight could be represented not just by the current existing psychic powers but by a pool of dice similar to Miracle dice for SoB. However instead, these dice could replace opponent rolls, representing the Eldar having acted to bring about fates and timelines where the enemy fails. So the enemy would seem to experience extreme bad luck with targeting system failures, fumbling blows, armor giving way, etc...

If Miracle dice are considered fine, when they can basically give a guaranteed unmodified 6 on a roll, then Eldar players forcing an opponent roll to be 1 should be equivalent.

Not necessarily.

I'm not opposed to the mechanic, but I don't think you can draw one to one equivalence between Miracle Dice and messing with opponent dice. It's a cool idea-but one that has the potential to be both broken and unfun, if handled poorly.

Could be neat, but I worry about it being a feelbad mechanic. Miracle Dice are framed as, "Hooray! I automatically succeeded at something!" Your proposal is framed as, "Oh great. I automatically failed at something for no reason." Abstractly, there's not much difference, but psychologically one feels much worse.

If we want to add big, fluffy, kind of complicated mechanics to eldar, I've been mulling over these:
A.) When the last model in a craftworld unit dies, place a spirit stone token where the last model used to be. Craftworlder units get +1 to to-hit roles while within 3" of such tokens. Spirit stones within 3" of craftworld units at the end of the Morale phase are removed from the table. Maybe add a mechanic for letting opponents perform actions to remove spirit stone tokens and inflict stacking Leadership penalties to craftworlders until the end of the player turn. Plays up eldar emotion and the value they place on the lives of other craftworlders.

B.) Let us move 7" instead of charging in the charge phase. Makes the whole army feel tricky and mobile.

C.) Confusion Tokens. Start with a few of them. Gain more when you advance, charge, benefit from a psychic power, use the Flicker Jump action, etc. The more confusion tokens a unit has, the harder they are for your opponent to deal with. This is really rough, but Confusion Token benefits might be something like:
1+ tokens - Opponent's to-hit rolls against this unit suffer -1 to hit.
2+ tokens - This unit can't be targeted by enemy shooting unless it's the closest enemy unit to the attacker.
3+ tokens - This unit can't be targeted by enemy units more than 18" away.

Lose tokens when...
* You're shot at by an enemy unit that doesn't split fire.
* You're charged.
* An enemy unit performs the "Pick Out" action during their shooting phase. (The action completes at the end of the shooting phase, so MSU armies can't use Pick Out and then immediately shoot the unprotected unit in the same phase.)

Definitely the most overwrought of these suggestions. It's an attempt at making craftworlders feel like they use disruption and mobility to keep more powerful enemies off-balance

How is it that necrons, orks, tau, dark eldar, and harlequines, all can feel very distinct from all 40k human factions and some of those can feel like elite or semi elite fast hitting meele/shooting armies but craftworld eldar can't because "muh initiative?"

Maybe is just that GW keeps writting bad rules for them, and nothing inherently flawed with the system.

To me Harlequins and Drukhari both feel extremely "eldar" in their current rules and one has 8th rules.