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Im pretty sure the play-testers at games-workshop could release more codex's despite covid, the idea seems to be they are planning each codex to be released aside some box-set that games-workshop plans on selling a ton of

We know each 40k faction is getting at least one new model to go with a release and GW sells codexes alongside model releases. That's business. An FAQ would solve this problem but GW is hardly perfect. They aren't just going to give people stuff for free to "balance the game". I was talking to my group last week about why unit rules aren't free like in AoS since you get them with the box instructions anyway. Of course, once again, GW can make money off it so why make it free.

Wayniac wrote:
What they SHOULD have done was do a special update for CSM and GK (did deathwatch already get theirs?) to do the 2W update and points upgrade so those people don't have to wait while playing with 1Ws.

And we'd still probably be here talking about how lacking they feel. Primaris were pretty meh most of 8th despite W2 and fancy guns. Or I could be wrong and the Cacophony VotLW support with better objective holding would be a winning combo, but I'm pretty over dealing with Slaanesh.

 Gert wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

That stuff would be great for Black Legion and Word Bearers. Other Legions, not so much.

With the way GW has been writing the Legions since 6th I don't see it as much of a problem. Iron Warriors are consistently the demon engine Legion now and I can't see the God aligned powers denying patron blessings. I don't like the whole "these traitor Legions are traitor but don't worship Chaos" angle, on a small scale sure but you can't be Chaos Space Marines if you don't worship the Dark Gods. Personal warbands I think should be done anyway the owner wants but the baseline for Chaos warbands should be that they are Chaos lovers.

As for the OP, I wouldn't hold your breath, it'll be a while.

No.

They do not appear to worship any one of the Chaos Gods, and have become instead cynical, hard-bitten, and frighteningly ruthless warriors. They fight for the pleasure of it, and for the material rewards it can bring, and not because they worship some deity. This attitude means they look down on their more dedicated brethren, be they fanatical Chaos Space Marines such as Khorne Berzerkers, or zealous loyal Space Marines like the Dark Angels or Ultramarines.

Codex: Chaos (2nd edition) on the Night Lords Legion, page 14

Because the Night Lords do not worship the Chaos Powers as gods they are reluctant to enter into Daemonic pacts so there are few daemons in their armies. Only Chaos Furies - often enslaved by Raptor Cults - may be included.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5, page 42 Emphasis mine.

The Night Lords fight for the pleasure of the kill and for material gains, not because of the dictates of any deity - in fact, most of their number look down on the faithful as naive fools. The Night Lords put their faith in the use of fear as a weapon, the thrill of the chase, and the feast of murder at hunt's end.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th edition), page 12

So yes, you can be a Chaos Space Marine without worshipping the Dark Gods or being a "Chaos lover".

As for that being how gw has written all of the Legions since 6th edition, besides the excerpt I just quoted, let's have a look at some of the rules for some of the Undivided Legions in Traitor Legions, released at the end of 7th, just a few months before 8th (so pretty recent):

Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors:
-Units that have a Mark of Chaos cannot be taken.
-Units cannot be upgraded to take any Mark of Chaos.

Doesn't sound like gw thinks these Legions are rampant Chaos lovers. For the record, Word Bearers could upgrade their units with Marks of Chaos, but couldn't take any unit that already bore one, Black Legion could take anything, and each God specific Legion was stuck with the Mark of their respective God. The 6th edition CSM codex was horrible, it even made our 4th and 8th edition codexes look great, I don't think that's what we want as a basis for 9th.

Honestly given the way the Chaos Marines function a complete build your own system with suggested examples for the named legions would be my preference (to be fair I kinda wish every army was built this way)

 Dysartes wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Considering the extra points space marines pay for that extra wound, is it worth it to dump that on Chaos space marines with no extra/revised special rules in the FAQ? Honestly the biggest atrocity was screwing xenos over by cutting them out of the weapons overhaul because their flamer was unfortunate enough to be called a burna...

Yes. Yes it is totally worth that.

The xeno weapon overhaul failure was an atrocity, absolutely, and both are GW either knowingly or unknowingly screaming that if you're not playing Loyalist Space Marines, you're second class at best, but the answer is still Yes.

OK, boys and girls, time to dial back the hyperbole.

At no point does not updating some stats in a game qualify as a freaking atrocity.

Distasteful? Sure. Poorly thought out? Absolutely. Offputting to some? It certainly seems so.

But an atrocity? No.

Okay. Wasn't being totally literal there, not saying it was an actual war crime, but I get it, it's the internet.

But I do not exaggerate when I say that the failure to update those things - combined with the full updated indexes ex-Codex LSM chapters got that were only going to be needed for a few months - was a major lynchpin in entirely souring me on 40K, 9th edition, and GW altogether.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats a hot take. Aside from the fact that writing *IS* labor, you still need proofreading, editing, painting, photography, layout, artwork, let alone printing and binding, shipping and logistics, let alone the sculpting, toolsetting, production, and packaging work needed for the associated new minis/product releases and repackaging, etc. Theres lots of labor that needs to be done.

Careful...recognizing reality makes you a fan boy.

How much painting do they do really for new codex? The stuff for the GK ook for example is just old models they had for prior editions. And the whole proof reading and editiong part can be done in studio or at home. Assuming they really do those things. The printing part seems to be their main problem, but that kind of a serves them right for picking China over places closer. I don't think the claim was, that the books write themselfs, but the impact of covid is often exagarated.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
What they SHOULD have done was do a special update for CSM and GK (did deathwatch already get theirs?) to do the 2W update and points upgrade so those people don't have to wait while playing with 1Ws.

And we'd still probably be here talking about how lacking they feel. Primaris were pretty meh most of 8th despite W2 and fancy guns. Or I could be wrong and the Cacophony VotLW support with better objective holding would be a winning combo, but I'm pretty over dealing with Slaanesh.

But that is because marines were me most of 8th, in general. It is not like that classic marines were super awesome and primaris were bad. Classic dudes aka scouts were just a lot cheaper. And what was really important to marine armies was stuff like flyers, super HQs etc.

And as bad csm would be, it still beats out being 50% less resilient at full cost. And that is before any special rules, other marines may have that csm or GK have not.

I'm not expecting a new CSM book for a while. Either way, the date isn't a big deal; I'd happily wait for a good book that doesn't need a supplement to make it worth playing. What irritates the hell out of me is their bizarre insistence to not hand us a FAQ granting a second wound. Stupidity, plain and simple

Wayniac wrote:

Also the issue with just house ruling 2 wounds is A) It's a house rule, your opponent can tell you they want to play with the rules as written and then you're SOL,

Incorrect. If it's been made a house rule it means "If you're playing here/with us, THIS is the rule being used." If they say no, it's they who're SOL as they won't be playing.

Wayniac wrote:
and B) it's going to come with a points increase, so how much do you treat it as?

It doesn't have to cost anything. I recently played a game where we just gave the CSMs a 2nd wound. The player was happy, a fun game was had, & as the worlds still spinning no cosmic imbalance was suffered as far as I can tell.

If you insisted on it costing something? Go buy me a Coke.
Oh, you mean pts wise.... Ok, what'd a basic SM cost at the end of 8th? What do they cost now here in 9th? That difference? That's the cost of the 2nd wound. Or at least close enough for Govt./GW work....

ccs wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Also the issue with just house ruling 2 wounds is A) It's a house rule, your opponent can tell you they want to play with the rules as written and then you're SOL,

Incorrect. If it's been made a house rule it means "If you're playing here/with us, THIS is the rule being used." If they say no, it's they who're SOL as they won't be playing.

Wayniac wrote:
and B) it's going to come with a points increase, so how much do you treat it as?

It doesn't have to cost anything. I recently played a game where we just gave the CSMs a 2nd wound. The player was happy, a fun game was had, & as the worlds still spinning no cosmic imbalance was suffered as far as I can tell.

If you insisted on it costing something? Go buy me a Coke.
Oh, you mean pts wise.... Ok, what'd a basic SM cost at the end of 8th? What do they cost now here in 9th? That difference? That's the cost of the 2nd wound. Or at least close enough for Govt./GW work....

I mean, if you want a game with no coherent balance, you've already got out-of-the-box 40k.

bat702 wrote:
For real tho, chaos worshippers.. err games-workshop will only release a codex when they are set to release some box-set that they plan on selling out on, so who knows by the time they are ready to release their new chaos vs even newer primaris marines box-set

So what box set was with blood angels? Death guard? Most 8e codexes when you were lucky to get character model with codex?


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bat702 wrote:
Im pretty sure the play-testers at games-workshop could release more codex's despite covid, the idea seems to be they are planning each codex to be released aside some box-set that games-workshop plans on selling a ton of

Lol no. For one you forget all the actual work done for codex. Writing is least part of getting codex to shelves. Just this little thing called "shipping" from china to uk and rest of world takes longer in normal times let alone now with reduced cargo transports going on. Gw isn't exactly top priority company...

Also most codexes can be happy to get single model with it. And logistically models are actually easier to get out in a hurry than books.

Well they could of course make a nobel gesture to the fanbase that paid the way for the company to be that big, and put some sort of basic index style updates for the under performing armies on their community page.
As a sort of a thank you and a sorry we know it is covid and we are month late with the game updates kind of a thing.

Nothing crucial like traits, psychic powers or relics, or core army changes. But +1 to W, or changing a units stat line should not be a problem. Maybe the banshees swords need to be D2, maybe the ork choppas should be -1 to save etc
The changes wouldn't be impacting the game too much or make people no want a future full book. Specially when old 8th ed codex are often hard to get anyway

 Gert wrote:
We know each 40k faction is getting at least one new model to go with a release and GW sells codexes alongside model releases. That's business. An FAQ would solve this problem but GW is hardly perfect. They aren't just going to give people stuff for free to "balance the game". I was talking to my group last week about why unit rules aren't free like in AoS since you get them with the box instructions anyway. Of course, once again, GW can make money off it so why make it free.

The models will sell like hotcakes regardless so I can't really get on board with this reasoning. In fact I am certain that even if GW updated every single faction tomorrow with new datasheets to bring them in line with 9th, new books would sell just as well as if they hadn't - assuming those new books included brand new units, strats and all that.

I can forgive GW a lot but you can never have a healthy and balanced game if it takes 2-3 years to give everyone up to date unit datasheets to play with. The only good thing about 8th edition was the indexes levelling the playing field at the start. They should have done that again, whilst not invalidating PA

Hey don't get me wrong I think GW should have gone with "everyone gets free rules updates via our brand new app" like with AoS but the reality is 40k is the cash cow so why make anything free. I don't like the fact half my armies aren't likely to win games because my opponent plays updated armies with new fancy toys and rules. I was really looking forward to the Crusade system but since CSM is going to be way down the line, I can't plan anything cool and have lost interest in my Black Legion army I was building basically for 9th.

Don't bother. GW fans defend everything they do and are fine with mediocrity. It's been shown time and time again that most of the 40k fan base don't actually care about good anything as long as ooh shiny models and make excuses for everything GW does. The fact anyone with a brain is defending holding out on a HUGE update (2wound Marines is pretty significant) instead of immediately "hotfixing" it speaks volumes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

bat702 wrote:
Also for all the people about to attack me with covid excuses, we are talking codex's, as in something that can be written, doesn't require any real actual labor..

Well, it does require considerable labor to even just layout a book, but once that labor is done it needs to be printed and shipped and they've clearly stated a few times that the shipping container didn't arrive on time. What typically happens is you order and the product sits on the dock until the shipping container is full. Then when it leaves the dock it takes weeks to arrive. It is unlikely they fly such a heavy product due to the cost.

My wife is an accountant for an import/export firm for lumber and other goods both too and from China as well as several other countries. I think the reason why we aren't seeing increases in production is even if companies could increase their output in the midst of the pandemic (in violation of regulation and government orders for safety) there are literally hundreds, if not more, cargo ships hanging off the coasts of major ports waiting for their turn to dock and offload. It is a MASSIVE issue for her business in both the US, Aus, China, and several other areas. Even transport from one location to another by mass transit, like railways or air cargo freight is heavily regulated right now.

So, if I was GW, there really isn't much of a need to ramp up production and push them out right now, because they aren't going to get where they want them to be, and the longer the books are on the market, the less likely people would be to buy them, in my estimation.

I could be completely wrong about that, I'm just shooting in the dark here, but I would think there is probably some truth to that.

Seabass wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

bat702 wrote:
Also for all the people about to attack me with covid excuses, we are talking codex's, as in something that can be written, doesn't require any real actual labor..

Well, it does require considerable labor to even just layout a book, but once that labor is done it needs to be printed and shipped and they've clearly stated a few times that the shipping container didn't arrive on time. What typically happens is you order and the product sits on the dock until the shipping container is full. Then when it leaves the dock it takes weeks to arrive. It is unlikely they fly such a heavy product due to the cost.

My wife is an accountant for an import/export firm for lumber and other goods both too and from China as well as several other countries. I think the reason why we aren't seeing increases in production is even if companies could increase their output in the midst of the pandemic (in violation of regulation and government orders for safety) there are literally hundreds, if not more, cargo ships hanging off the coasts of major ports waiting for their turn to dock and offload. It is a MASSIVE issue for her business in both the US, Aus, China, and several other areas. Even transport from one location to another by mass transit, like railways or air cargo freight is heavily regulated right now.

So, if I was GW, there really isn't much of a need to ramp up production and push them out right now, because they aren't going to get where they want them to be, and the longer the books are on the market, the less likely people would be to buy them, in my estimation.

I could be completely wrong about that, I'm just shooting in the dark here, but I would think there is probably some truth to that.

You're right.

"A surge in shipping volumes that began in late summer and rose during the holiday season has continued into the New Year as retailers and manufacturers try to rebuild inventories that were depleted at the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic. "
"The backlogs have left many retailers waiting weeks for goods stuck on ships at sea or at the port, hitting small and medium-size companies with lean operations particularly hard."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/port-delays-leave-cargo-ships-stranded-off-u-s-pacific-gateways-11610574485