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 BlackoCatto wrote:
It is more likely they will get rid of CoS than give it something sadly. The only reason I play AoS is that army.

Considering the fact that Cities of Sigmar have been getting a little bit of love in each Broken Realm book I imagine GW has embraced them. Now that doesn't preclude them from changing the factional organization, but I don't think CoS are going to be disappearing anytime soon.

Regarding the new edition it is obvious that the Broken Realms books is killing off the idea of Grand Alliances. BR Morathi has created massive distrust within Order and BR Teclis has basically undone all what Nagash has done and broken his hold on the undead. I imagine BR Belakor will shatter Chaos and that BR Kragnos will do something nasty to Destruction.

Lorewise I am happy about all of this as there is nothing more boring than stale settings. All of this distrust(and loss of control in terms of DEATH) means that there are a lot of lore development and reorgs waiting to happen.

Gamewise I think it is almost guaranteed that GW will standardize the min table size to the 40k size. I also imagine we will see some changes to endless spells(since what caused them has been lessened) and I am curious to see if they will drop the Round Roll off.

Along with this I imagine we will see a shakeup of the missions and they will very likely be more like the 40k missions currently. On top of that I imagine Path to Glory will be made to be more like Crusade in 40k.

Cronch wrote:
Destruction also has just one god, GorkaMorka. there might be some other deities, but they bent the lore backwards to ensure every major destruction faction worships the orc god...

Ah ok, I had thought the Maw had survived in its own form, but it seems they just made it the ogor version of Gorkamorka...



My main reason for this observation is that it gives one superfaction too much cooperation to be controlled and led by a single god. The other factions have several and they don't always agree, but with Nagash having a stranglehold over Death, it makes death too organised and more of a focused threat than chaos, which to me is a bit off.

So I think there needs to be a shakeup where Nagash has some of his power usurped and a couple of upstart death gods vie for control. This reduces Nagash's power level, but it also prevents Death from being a unified faction under one ruler making it as unstable as the others.

 Eldarain wrote:
The Vanguard were a brilliant addition model wise. Chocobo Lord and unit especially. If it is Destruction an expansion of the Vanguard chamber would fit and be very tempting.

Honestly a flying chamber or other chambers would be interesting to see added for Stormcasts, feel like we are missing normal cav with lances option for Stormcasts especially to scratch that brettonian itch I keep having. But again I do tihnk Destruction is next up and we will get normal Orcs + Goblins or an Equalivent

I don’t know if others have mentioned this, but I’m wondering if Kragnos will arrive with a new Destruction army, and 3rd Ed will be SCE vs him.

My main reason for this observation is that it gives one superfaction too much cooperation to be controlled and led by a single god. The other factions have several and they don't always agree, but with Nagash having a stranglehold over Death, it makes death too organised and more of a focused threat than chaos, which to me is a bit off.

So I think there needs to be a shakeup where Nagash has some of his power usurped and a couple of upstart death gods vie for control. This reduces Nagash's power level, but it also prevents Death from being a unified faction under one ruler making it as unstable as the others.

So I am going to put this into a spoiler for thosewho haven't seen the lore in Broken Realm Teclis:

I just want to remind people that Grand Alliances aren't actual alliances that last long term.

Chaos, for example, has 4 core god factions who have been fighting against each other for millennia untold. Khorne and Slaanesh forces won't even allow alliance between them directly ( the only way you get them on the same side is supporting a Slaves to Darkness force).

Skaven fight everyone and even themselves and only just tolerate a sort of alliance with Nurgle when it suits them. But they've been undermining and backstabbing all of chaos.



Chaos as a Grand Alliance shows that there's honestly no love between the forces and most of the time they can be fully at war with each other.







What hte Grand Alliances represent are ideals and ways of life and also alliance blocks that will more commonly stand united against a greater foe. Eg Destruction and Death will stand with Order against Chaos, but the nature and ideals of those blocks are very different.

Morathi backstabbing Sigmar doesn't mean that the GA is over; honestly I think its a core part of the setting that will last the long term. Heck Idoneth by their very lore have been harvesting souls from humans and such for ages now. There's basically not a single force in Order that "likes" the Idoneth and Morathi only secured an alliance through force and the fact that she also just lost a firm alliance with Sigmar and is going on the expansion.



I think the key is to realise that AoS's overarching story is more Dynastic than Character. It's more like Crusader Kings than it is Baldur's Gate. You're questing with gods and long histories rather than the small scale. At least for the main thrust of the story.

So sure Morathi and Sigmar can be at war now, in 60 years they might ally again once Morathi has finished backstabbing and secured herself a more prominent kingdom. Heck when you consider that both she and Sigmar are perhaps the most die-hard anti-chaos forces in Order they've a lot to unite on in ideals even if Sigmar knows she'll betray him or at least use whatever she cna to further her own cauase.

Meanwhile the Sylvanth are as like to ally with you as they are to tear you apart. A shift in the seasons; a shift in their Everqueens mental state; cutting down the wrong trees to make fire wood for the encampment.

I think the key is to realise that AoS's overarching story is more Dynastic than Character.

I'd agree, but in the end the mortal characters are almost all disposable, they exist just to enact the will of the main characters, the Gods. Soul Wars were literally sparked by something the two main characters did 500 years earlier.AoS is a very small story that's just drawn out for a long time.

3rd Ed? I would hope for changes to shooting.

Now I like shooting, I have well over 2k of Dwarfs I run as cities of sigmar which involves plenty of war machines and crossbows/iron drakes whittling down the foes as the shieldwall marches up to finish them off!

But the way the rules work can make such an army feel overly oppressive, even though its not fully devoted to shooting and things like KO and LRL just straight up feels bad.

 Overread wrote:
What hte Grand Alliances represent are ideals and ways of life and also alliance blocks that will more commonly stand united against a greater foe. Eg Destruction and Death will stand with Order against Chaos, but the nature and ideals of those blocks are very different.

I agree, but the problem with the Grand Alliances is that they have all been based off on ideals except for Death which has Nagash holding its reins tightly. Also the reason why he is setup as the villain of edition 2.0. It does however, create Death as an outlier to the Grand Alliances do to his control over all of Death. It's the reason why I love Flesh-Eater Courts as they seem to be the few mad enough to give Nagash the finger.

So sure Morathi and Sigmar can be at war now, in 60 years they might ally again once Morathi has finished backstabbing and secured herself a more prominent kingdom. Heck when you consider that both she and Sigmar are perhaps the most die-hard anti-chaos forces in Order they've a lot to unite on in ideals even if Sigmar knows she'll betray him or at least use whatever she cna to further her own cauase.

I mean, I do believe Sigmar knows that when it comes to fighting Slaanesh he probably wants Morathi and her witches on his side. However, with the current shakeup in BR Morathi it at least opens up for more lore reason for the factions to fight in the first place. I think a tenuous alliance is better for the lore and the games we play..


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 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
3rd Ed? I would hope for changes to shooting.

Now I like shooting, I have well over 2k of Dwarfs I run as cities of sigmar which involves plenty of war machines and crossbows/iron drakes whittling down the foes as the shieldwall marches up to finish them off!

But the way the rules work can make such an army feel overly oppressive, even though its not fully devoted to shooting and things like KO and LRL just straight up feels bad.

If they remove the random turn order shooting might lose a bit of its power. Currently it holds a lot of power as it is a non-reactionary action and double-turn reinforces that wholesale. Removing the random turn order and shooting stays strong, but you won't be getting any bonus shooting.

 Overread wrote:


So sure Morathi and Sigmar can be at war now, in 60 years they might ally again once Morathi has finished backstabbing and secured herself a more prominent kingdom. Heck when you consider that both she and Sigmar are perhaps the most die-hard anti-chaos forces in Order they've a lot to unite on in ideals even if Sigmar knows she'll betray him or at least use whatever she cna to further her own cauase.

*ANGRY LIZARD NOISES as forgotten once again*

For the record, the fact that Seraphon seem to be getting a Broken Realms WD campaign...doesn't bode well. It sort of suggests the Seraphon don't get any part in what's coming beyond a small background event. I do seriously hope I'm wrong though.

Cronch wrote:

Spoiler:

wait, seriously? oh god, the mad lads actually did it, they went full saturday morning cartoon on the plot

Not really, Thats a bit of an exaggeration I feel.

The entire story of broken realms : Teclis and Morathi have been leaps and bounds better than the entire Psychic Awakening. And its not a saturday morning cartoon if so many characters have motivations etc. Cartoon Plot implies they are nonsensical but they aren't here.

Overall I can't wait for 3rd and see what they do especially with the hints in Teclis.

 Asherian Command wrote:


The entire story of broken realms :

'Elves are why we can't have nice things.'

I think that's a fair summary.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Overread wrote:
What hte Grand Alliances represent are ideals and ways of life and also alliance blocks that will more commonly stand united against a greater foe. Eg Destruction and Death will stand with Order against Chaos, but the nature and ideals of those blocks are very different.

I agree, but the problem with the Grand Alliances is that they have all been based off on ideals except for Death which has Nagash holding its reins tightly. Also the reason why he is setup as the villain of edition 2.0. It does however, create Death as an outlier to the Grand Alliances do to his control over all of Death. It's the reason why I love Flesh-Eater Courts as they seem to be the few mad enough to give Nagash the finger.

Spoiler:

Which they seem to be addressing in the latest Broken Realm book with removing Nagash's hold. In my mind this was a much needed thing as Death holds a lot of political maneuvering in the lore/novels that tends to be overshadowed by the absoluteness of Nagash's power.

So sure Morathi and Sigmar can be at war now, in 60 years they might ally again once Morathi has finished backstabbing and secured herself a more prominent kingdom. Heck when you consider that both she and Sigmar are perhaps the most die-hard anti-chaos forces in Order they've a lot to unite on in ideals even if Sigmar knows she'll betray him or at least use whatever she cna to further her own cauase.

I mean, I do believe Sigmar knows that when it comes to fighting Slaanesh he probably wants Morathi and her witches on his side. However, with the current shakeup in BR Morathi it at least opens up for more lore reason for the factions to fight in the first place. I think a tenuous alliance is better for the lore and the games we play..

Yes, that is the most exciting part about Broken Realms. Is that the shake-ups are so worthwhile

My favorite bit is just how rewarding and characterful the reads have been for Broken Realms.

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 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
3rd Ed? I would hope for changes to shooting.

Now I like shooting, I have well over 2k of Dwarfs I run as cities of sigmar which involves plenty of war machines and crossbows/iron drakes whittling down the foes as the shieldwall marches up to finish them off!

But the way the rules work can make such an army feel overly oppressive, even though its not fully devoted to shooting and things like KO and LRL just straight up feels bad.

If they remove the random turn order shooting might lose a bit of its power. Currently it holds a lot of power as it is a non-reactionary action and double-turn reinforces that wholesale. Removing the random turn order and shooting stays strong, but you won't be getting any bonus shooting.

Yeah which is a huge issue I feel especially for lumineth. I love my lumineth but the fact that my sentinels are that effecctive, which means my units i want to use Bladelords or Dawnriders are just ineffectual or bad choices. And how my liberators for stormcasts are outdone and useless compared to Judicators.

Overall I agree Range seems to be king. Which is not a surprise.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Overread wrote:


So sure Morathi and Sigmar can be at war now, in 60 years they might ally again once Morathi has finished backstabbing and secured herself a more prominent kingdom. Heck when you consider that both she and Sigmar are perhaps the most die-hard anti-chaos forces in Order they've a lot to unite on in ideals even if Sigmar knows she'll betray him or at least use whatever she cna to further her own cauase.

*ANGRY LIZARD NOISES as forgotten once again*

For the record, the fact that Seraphon seem to be getting a Broken Realms WD campaign...doesn't bode well. It sort of suggests the Seraphon don't get any part in what's coming beyond a small background event. I do seriously hope I'm wrong though.

Lizards are playing a whole different game though. Sigmar and the other gods are fighting for the Mortal Realms. Be it for themselves, their people or a mish mash of the two. In general they are fighting for those Realms. The Seraphon view the Mortal Realms as just another battlefield in the long war against Chaos that, for them, spans the cosmos. Their plans are looking so far forward that their actions in the now can appear incomprehensible yet might make sense to a plan that's got elements so far in the future that the gods themselves would be old and aged.

That said I do think it curious that perhaps one of the biggest players have been very silent. That said I think Seraphon are quiet perhaps because GW wants ot update them in a big way all in one go and thus they are waiting for that slot which might be a while off yet. So they might be ticking over for a while with small updates and a new tome when needed, but won't take part in the big story until a big launch event for them. Much like Malarion is also a very key and big player (he rules most of the realm of shadow) and yet hasn't done much either within the story.

Soulblight are actually an oddity in that we've had quite a few vampire stories and events without them really having much of an army save for being mostly Legions of Nagash in bits.

Overread wrote:Skaven fight everyone and even themselves and only just tolerate a sort of alliance with Nurgle when it suits them. But they've been undermining and backstabbing all of chaos.

Reading this, it made me think that the Horned Rat and Malal/Malice are one in the same, or maybe the Rat just took over for the Fantasy side.

Overread wrote:Soulblight are actually an oddity in that we've had quite a few vampire stories and events without them really having much of an army save for being mostly Legions of Nagash in bits.

Maybe having Nagash out of the way, Mannfred is seeing the opportunity to press forward and that is why we are seeing them come out as an army now. This could also consolidate a lot of the Legion in to a more defined space, much like the Flesh Eaters were.

I hope we get a god of the Lizardmen of somekind, the fact that we don't have a main center piece character for the lizardmen is a shame. Like a Serpent creature god would be awesome.

Slaan don't need gods - they've godlike powers already. At least the really ancient ones.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I hope we get a god of the Lizardmen of somekind, the fact that we don't have a main center piece character for the lizardmen is a shame. Like a Serpent creature god would be awesome.

As said, we don't need gods....as such.

But we do need a centrepiece.

Mazdamundi would be perfect to be brought back as some sort of supreme avatar of Law....


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 Overread wrote:
Slaan don't need gods - they've godlike powers already. At least the really ancient ones.

Yep. We just need an ancient Slann that can stand up to Teclis/Nagash/Morathi/Archaon on their terms - Mazdamundi would be the ideal candidate...

Or you bring back a Tehenhauin or any of the numerous other Lizardmen Heroes out there. I mean you can also do any of the major lizardmen characters from the old world. But if I remember right, Maz died way before the lizardmen left, I wouldn't be surprised if they use the Prophet of Sotek so we have like a division between the Lizardmen the Sotek / Blood Cultistish and the Star Driven ones led by Mazdamundi. So like two factions for the price of one. But you can play either one.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Or you bring back a Tehenhauin or any of the numerous other Lizardmen Heroes out there. I mean you can also do any of the major lizardmen characters from the old world. But if I remember right, Maz died way before the lizardmen left, I wouldn't be surprised if they use the Prophet of Sotek so we have like a division between the Lizardmen the Sotek / Blood Cultistish and the Star Driven ones led by Mazdamundi. So like two factions for the price of one. But you can play either one.

Mazdamundi may have technically died...but then, so did Sigvald. And Teclis actually. As did Kroak.

Lizardmen Memory Resurrection Shenanigans are basically confirmed to be a thing with AoS.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Mazdamundi may have technically died...but then, so did Sigvald. And Teclis actually. As did Kroak.

Heh, Kroak was long dead before the End of the World. Was there ever a time where we had Kroak when he wasn't a mummy?

Still, a Mazdamundi on a Steggo or a new Kroak sculpt to be a centerpiece would probably be the way to go for a centerpiece. The other option is just someone brand new like the Bonereaper's and Nighthaunt's centerpiece models are.

 Charistoph wrote:

Overread wrote:Skaven fight everyone and even themselves and only just tolerate a sort of alliance with Nurgle when it suits them. But they've been undermining and backstabbing all of chaos.

Reading this, it made me think that the Horned Rat and Malal/Malice are one in the same, or maybe the Rat just took over for the Fantasy side.

Not really, that's just Skaven being Skaven. The entirety of Skaven history and society is built upon schemes within schemes, backstabbing each other to gain power, and making false alliances with other factions that they always intend to turn on to increase their power and prove their perceived superiority over the other races. They're the living embodiment of "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!". They literally only allied with Archaon during the End Times because the Horned Rat knew it was the only way for his children to survive into what happened afterwards and for himself to gain enough power to ascend to truly being part of the pantheon.

Skaven also require and crave the nearby presence of other Skaven while Champions of Malal are notorious for being loners. It was always one of the flaws of Malal's desire to topple the other gods that he lacked large numbers of followers.

I think the next but story turn for Skaven could be the female skaven. There's talk in their new Battletome of at least one coven of females in one of the major settlements banding together and using schemes to manipulate the males to their own gain. It wouldn't surprise me if at some stage one of the mighty brood mothers might try and make a bid for open power. It would certainly shake things up for Skaven to have a female rise above the ranks of a simple herd breeder and to command the teeming hoards.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Overread wrote:Skaven fight everyone and even themselves and only just tolerate a sort of alliance with Nurgle when it suits them. But they've been undermining and backstabbing all of chaos.

Reading this, it made me think that the Horned Rat and Malal/Malice are one in the same, or maybe the Rat just took over for the Fantasy side.

Not really, that's just Skaven being Skaven. The entirety of Skaven history and society is built upon schemes within schemes, backstabbing each other to gain power, and making false alliances with other factions that they always intend to turn on to increase their power and prove their perceived superiority over the other races. They're the living embodiment of "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!". They literally only allied with Archaon during the End Times because the Horned Rat knew it was the only way for his children to survive into what happened afterwards and for himself to gain enough power to ascend to truly being part of the pantheon.

But that's part of my point. They both play off each other VERY well, at least for the Fantasy side. Malal/Malice is all about Chaos' self-destructive tendencies, which is definitely a Skaven characteristic.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Skaven also require and crave the nearby presence of other Skaven while Champions of Malal are notorious for being loners. It was always one of the flaws of Malal's desire to topple the other gods that he lacked large numbers of followers.

Well, there is a huge difference between a race that multiplies itself to superiority and a heavily modified super-human. To be fair, I could see the Hrud being introduced more to represent this pantheon, but the Sons of Malice could still be in as well, though they haven't been very rat-like, except eating their enemies...

 Overread wrote:
I think the next but story turn for Skaven could be the female skaven. There's talk in their new Battletome of at least one coven of females in one of the major settlements banding together and using schemes to manipulate the males to their own gain. It wouldn't surprise me if at some stage one of the mighty brood mothers might try and make a bid for open power. It would certainly shake things up for Skaven to have a female rise above the ranks of a simple herd breeder and to command the teeming hoards.

I didn't realize there were female skaven that weren't mountains of bloated, mindless flesh. I'm happy to see that they shifted away from that horrible portrayal (even if only a bit?)

Rihgu wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the next but story turn for Skaven could be the female skaven. There's talk in their new Battletome of at least one coven of females in one of the major settlements banding together and using schemes to manipulate the males to their own gain. It wouldn't surprise me if at some stage one of the mighty brood mothers might try and make a bid for open power. It would certainly shake things up for Skaven to have a female rise above the ranks of a simple herd breeder and to command the teeming hoards.

I didn't realize there were female skaven that weren't mountains of bloated, mindless flesh. I'm happy to see that they shifted away from that horrible portrayal (even if only a bit?)

They are still mountains of bloated breeding flesh. They are basically injected and modified from birth to become mighty breeders. The difference is that in the Old World they were fully mindless and simply used for breeding. In AoS they are mostly like that, but there are hints of a few that might be smarter and hiding their intelligence to manipulate some skaven in the background. Right now its a story hook. A potential thread that GW could develop if they so chose. It would also be interesting to see it developed as I think that such a thing could be used to give Skaven some long term goals beyond just messing things up. Ergo suggesting that whilst the males in-fight all the time, the females are looking at the grander picture and longer term goals, whilst also being stable enough that they don't in-fight in the same way so that they don't undo their gains

 Charistoph wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Overread wrote:Skaven fight everyone and even themselves and only just tolerate a sort of alliance with Nurgle when it suits them. But they've been undermining and backstabbing all of chaos.

Reading this, it made me think that the Horned Rat and Malal/Malice are one in the same, or maybe the Rat just took over for the Fantasy side.

Not really, that's just Skaven being Skaven. The entirety of Skaven history and society is built upon schemes within schemes, backstabbing each other to gain power, and making false alliances with other factions that they always intend to turn on to increase their power and prove their perceived superiority over the other races. They're the living embodiment of "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!". They literally only allied with Archaon during the End Times because the Horned Rat knew it was the only way for his children to survive into what happened afterwards and for himself to gain enough power to ascend to truly being part of the pantheon.

But that's part of my point. They both play off each other VERY well, at least for the Fantasy side. Malal/Malice is all about Chaos' self-destructive tendencies, which is definitely a Skaven characteristic.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Skaven also require and crave the nearby presence of other Skaven while Champions of Malal are notorious for being loners. It was always one of the flaws of Malal's desire to topple the other gods that he lacked large numbers of followers.

Well, there is a huge difference between a race that multiplies itself to superiority and a heavily modified super-human. To be fair, I could see the Hrud being introduced more to represent this pantheon, but the Sons of Malice could still be in as well, though they haven't been very rat-like, except eating their enemies...

I wasn't talking about Chaos Marine champions, I was talking about his Fantasy champions like Kaaleb Dark. Malal also had a tendency to prefer actively attacking Chaos over others where as Skaven more often than not actively avoided the Wastes and Chaos when given the chance. The only real similarity in Fantasy was the self-destructive nature.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I wasn't talking about Chaos Marine champions, I was talking about his Fantasy champions like Kaaleb Dark. Malal also had a tendency to prefer actively attacking Chaos over others where as Skaven more often than not actively avoided the Wastes and Chaos when given the chance. The only real similarity in Fantasy was the self-destructive nature.

And that self-destructive nature is what I was mainly referring to. How much better to represent the self-destructive nature of Chaos in a God than the Horned Rat?

The Skaven gnawed from underneath civilization, but if they rose up in a town already overrun by Khorne berzerkers, they'd fight them just as much as they would have fought the Empire's Halberdiers.

Me and my three variations of Ironjawz will just continue to sit in the corner over here with the Fyreslayers players and the people who play Cities of Sigmar and hope for something out of all of this.