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1) They didn’t have time to prepare for a full invasion; they knew they were going to be attacked, but didn’t expect it that quickly or that heavily.

2) In the books it is explained (better) that the Guild charge an extortionate amount for troop movements, because open warfare is bad for business. So inter-house conflicts are generally limited to raids and skirmishes. The book explicitly states that they are expecting no more than 10 brigades in a full attack (and a brigade is defined as 3,000 men, so 30,000 total), which would presumably be focused on attacking the House directly (basically a decapitation strike, rather than a general invasion).

Instead, the Harkonnens rock up with over 100 brigades, 300,000 men. It’s just a totally overwhelming force. This probably also partly explains the fear of the Sardaukar; the emperor has legions of Sardaukar, with a legion being 10 brigades, so not only are they much better trained and disciplined than normal troops, they are also a much, much bigger force. Again, the book explicitly states that they are only matched by all of the Houses allied against them together.

That’s also why the emperor feared the Atreides, because Duncan, Gurney and Thufir had trained their forces to be equal to the Sardaukar and they were starting to expand them, plus Leto was politically uniting the other Houses, to a point where he might have been able to challenge for the throne.

trexmeyer wrote:

Fremen supposedly thrash Sardaukar. Because they grew up on a harsher planet.
Paul beats an above-average Fremen (Jamis) so badly that Stilgar and other observers think Paul is toying with him. Paul here is a skinny 15-year old described as being small for his size with significant training, but why would his training be vastly superior to that of the Sardaukar? It's not suggested in the text that his skill or victory is related to his Kwisatz Hiderach status. The passage in question specifically points to his training.

Gurney and Idaho (just two men) supposedly training the Atreidis force to being on a cut below the Sardaukar. The Sardaukar are an institution. They've been doing this for some time and yet two men can just train up a bunch of randoms to a near-comparable level in a few years? What?

The internal logic is questionable at best, but the larger issue is that this has zero relation to how warfare or individual combat skills are developed in the real world. Historically, more "barbaric" cultures may have produced better one on one warriors, but they have almost always faltered against trained and disciplined soldiers from more "civilized" societies. The zealotry aspect of the Sardaukar and Fremen (God created Arrakis to train the faithful) is rooted in reality, but the actual soldiering is not.

Even if the Fremen were superior, a 5 to 1 kill ratio is obscenely absurd. Hebert completely failed to make the Sardaukar seem elite. They're an army of Worfs that exist solely for the Fremen to punch out while onlookers marvel at their greatness.

The Sardaukar are badasses because they come from a death-world prison planet, and to a lesser degree because of their training and indoctrination. Firemen are badasses because they come from a death-world desert planet, and become moreso because Paul and Jessica start teaching them the Weirding Way. Actual combat skills are considered kind of a baseline level of equal competence among the various armies--at least, where their front-line combatants are concerned. Individual combat master's like Duncan and Gurney are a significant cut above.

The entire theme of Dune us the idea of how humanity can change itself--can force itself to evolve. One method is through selective, intensive breeding programs over thousands of years--the Bene Gesserit. Another is biological change brought on mostly by Spice, which creates everything from Mentats to Guild Navigators. Another is super-dooper physical training, hypnotism, etc--the Weirding Way. And, as above, the physical and societal pressures of living on harsh, alien worlds.

Whether you "feel it" or not, the narrative focal point is that Paul, a product of selective breeding and Weirding training, unleashes a planet full of death-world warrior fanatics, who have been amplified by Weirding Way training which the Bene Gesserit never wanted to lose contol of, all while siezing control of the most important commodity in the universe. And that's how he destroys an empire and changes the course of humanity.

Not because his army is better at knife fighting than all the other knife fighters.

 Jadenim wrote:
1) They didn’t have time to prepare for a full invasion; they knew they were going to be attacked, but didn’t expect it that quickly or that heavily.

2) In the books it is explained (better) that the Guild charge an extortionate amount for troop movements, because open warfare is bad for business. So inter-house conflicts are generally limited to raids and skirmishes. The book explicitly states that they are expecting no more than 10 brigades in a full attack (and a brigade is defined as 3,000 men, so 30,000 total), which would presumably be focused on attacking the House directly (basically a decapitation strike, rather than a general invasion).

Instead, the Harkonnens rock up with over 100 brigades, 300,000 men. It’s just a totally overwhelming force. This probably also partly explains the fear of the Sardaukar; the emperor has legions of Sardaukar, with a legion being 10 brigades, so not only are they much better trained and disciplined than normal troops, they are also a much, much bigger force. Again, the book explicitly states that they are only matched by all of the Houses allied against them together.

That’s also why the emperor feared the Atreides, because Duncan, Gurney and Thufir had trained their forces to be equal to the Sardaukar and they were starting to expand them, plus Leto was politically uniting the other Houses, to a point where he might have been able to challenge for the throne.

Yes.

And in the film, the Baron says in his conversation with Rabban that the invasion was extremely costly, and that they need to start selling their spice reserves (but not too quickly) and squeeze more spice of Arrakis. We're left to presume it wiped out quite a bit of the Harkonnens' wealth, who are said in the film to be filthy rich. A lesser House probably couldn't have pulled it off. And near the beginning of the film, Thufir mentions the high cost of travel just for the ship containing the Baron's envoy and Guild representatives.

So while it's not all spelled out in detail in the movie...it is there if you pay close attention.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I prefer my heroes to have a decent match from time to time as long as the heroes themselves are decently trained. Otherwise they should look like a fumbling idiot.

Nope... One of the points of the books are superheroes really aren't. The BG get their prescient messiah, who swiftly realises as the whole of humanities future is now laid out before him, it is bounded by his imagination and predicted by his gift (if he sees it, it must come to pass). The struggle is more of the impossibility of confronting or countering such a God and ultimately it is only his plan that removes himself and the future prospect of such control over humanity again. But if he had been a more controlling figure he would have doomed humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I prefer my heroes to have a decent match from time to time as long as the heroes themselves are decently trained. Otherwise they should look like a fumbling idiot.

Nope... One of the points of the books are superheroes really aren't. The BG get their prescient messiah, who swiftly realises as the whole of humanities future is now laid out before him, it is bounded by his imagination and predicted by his gift (if he sees it, it must come to pass). The struggle is more of the impossibility of confronting or countering such a God and ultimately it is only his plan that removes himself and the future prospect of such control over humanity again. But if he had been a more controlling figure he would have doomed humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.

Dune is, in essence, a story about the horror and misery inherent to being a "The Chosen One" protagonist, and honestly, that's absolutely fantastic, and the more they lean into that the better the movies will be tbh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Sigh. Does a topic have to always come back to political reasons?

Rei (spelling?) wasn't trained even a bit. Paul was trained. Also i don't think Rei ever really lost a fight excepting that one time with Snoke and he died immediately after from a stupid thing he should've seen coming via mind reading his apprentice.

People can be ok with female protagonists like Lara Croft and Alita. Part of it makes more sense like if they were trained before.

You guys are totally spot on with the weirdness of the Fremen though if using ancient shield tactics. Ofc in current day ambush and hit and run tactics do handle really elite forces though that is with modern weapons.

I assume this would make infinitely more sense if Fremen were more of a raiding force that hit weak positions with minimal enemies rather than built up shield wall armies.

----.

except that here's what we're shown between both protagonists:

One is a noble boy, physically quite skinny, who's shown to be trained by a guy who we are told by the movie is a 'great blademaster' but we know, from the conversation they have, that he's worried that things are about to 'get real' for Paul too quickly.

IN THE TRAINING SEQUENCE paul literally starts out by saying 'aw, lets not do our combat training today gurney, why dont you sing me a song instead?' and we see throughout the training that Gurney is really really worried about him. This is his LAST CHANCE to whip him into shape before he has to go out and face real life or death conflicts. The whole movie set up with the house of atreides really sets them up to be basically the same as Ned Stark in the first season of GoT: they're honorable, noble, strong, and skilled, but theyre naive to this world of ruthless profiteering and backstabbing politics where appealing to The Law gets you nowhere.

The duke and House Atreides pays for that by the end of the movie: Paul never, ever will, at least not within the plot of Dune the novel.

The setup of Rey in TFA is, by contrast, the exact opposite: She's shown to have lived an incredibly hard life, basically subsistence living and having to get into real fights with other similarly desperate people who are also basically under the thumb of the same system where they can never really earn enough to get more than their next meal. She's got lots of practical experience getting into fights, but no theoretical traditional training with a master - the thing that made Rey flawed character-wise was her ability to just get stuff that in other films required training from a master to accomplish. If she'd just had a lot of brute force like scrappy gak, I think she would have made a much better and more fun character and you could have done more with her, especially because it could have let you do something with the sequels where Rey fights and acts similarly to Luke (the other minimally-trained Jedi we've seen and also a returning character they were going to re-use) and contrast it with some of the more traditional old school prequel-style fighting that maybe Kylo Ren might have. They hinted at it, but the main problem is they didnt go far enough to show her failing at things that required discipline and subtlety, and they leaned too hard into "HE ANGURY" as the big flaw with Kylo. Like you could maybe have one of the thugs in the initial confrontation with Rey in the beginning of the movie have a robotic limb of some kind and have Rey break it to help win the fight (to show she's kind of this scrappy street fighter who does what she has to to survive) and then if you wanted to have "untrained rey vs trained but injured kylo" have her exploit his injury to get inside his superior form and beat him down with brute force.

Rey having some kind of back-alley jedi teacher who trains her in the Way of the Stick ala the old blind guy from Rogue 1, or having a cut in TFA where a cackling Palpatine explains to the audience that he has infused her with Big Chosen One Energy would not improve her character: what you actually show the audience through characters' actions in the movie is what matters and the fact that she was basically omnicompetent is what the problem with Rey and Paul alike very much is.

Paul doesnt really have a 'this is what the desert is like, little pampered noble boy' moment. He doesnt have to see the guy betray his father, or the sardaukar kill his buddy Aquaman. He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.

 the_scotsman wrote:
He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this seems like a really bad take. The entire scene in the stilltent is about him being overwhelmed by the horrors ahead. And the Paul we see in this film has very scattershot prescience anyway. It's after he takes the Water of Life that his prescience levels up and sees things more clearly..although it also remains imperfect.

The focus of this film -- and that part of the book -- isn't about the Jihad or the Golden Path anyway. It's about the fall of House Atreides. I thought the stilltent scene was the *perfect* amount of foreshadowing to the audience. There's no need to spend any more time dealing with things that won't pay off until the next movie and the movie after that...if Messiah even happens.

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.

Is this actually true? I didnt think it was, because under Paul


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this seems like a really bad take. The entire scene in the stilltent is about him being overwhelmed by the horrors ahead. And the Paul we see in this film has very scattershot prescience anyway. It's after he takes the Water of Life that his prescience levels up and sees things more clearly..although it also remains imperfect.

The focus of this film -- and that part of the book -- isn't about the Jihad or the Golden Path anyway. It's about the fall of House Atreides. I thought the stilltent scene was the *perfect* amount of foreshadowing to the audience. There's no need to spend any more time dealing with things that won't pay off until the next movie and the movie after that...if Messiah even happens.

to be clear I"m not criticising the film adaptation here - as far as I remember they were pretty dang faithful throughout the events they covered - I'm criticising the source material itself. Dune the series gradually begins to portray Paul and his like in a horrific light, but it moves so slowly to do so that its easy to read just Dune and see him as just another omnicompetent Chosen One protagonist, and besides the absolutely brilliant worldbuilding which was just impossibly novel for scifi of its time thats kind of what Dune the series has to offer in terms of original, interesting story content, the steady breakdown of this particular heroic archetype.

Sardaukar can't commit genocide against the Fremen because the Fremen go on to launch a galaxy-wide jihad. Clearly an insignificant number of them were wiped out. The Sardaukar were trying desperately to kill them off because (in-universe) they realize Arrakis is basically Salus Secundus 2.0 and the Fremen are the new and improved Sardaukar.

 the_scotsman wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.

Is this actually true? I didnt think it was, because under Paul

Spoiler:

he does eventually decide that the Fremen Jihad is a better alternative to other future paths. The whole saga of the main Dune books is essentially to "Chosen One" narratives what Akira/Shinsekai Yori is to "Superhero" narratives - that these people would be unspeakable, unimaginable horror movie monsters in real life and would effortlessly top the worst of history's monsters with the extent of the bloodshed they would cause.

Paul's eventual children are like, born fully conscious and also perfectly prescient of every instant of their lives that will roll out before them, and his...I think grandkid, or maybe also his son, transforms himself into this hideous body horror monstrosity who reigns as absolute autocrat of humanity for thousands of years and keeps making reincarnated clones of Paul's dead best friend to serve as his regent and confidant, and regresses humanity into a new age of darkness by basically ending space travel. Paul himself reigns for like 9 years but causes 67 billion casualties from his holy war.

The Fremen eventually fade from prominence in the galaxy but I think its because by book 3 the immortal god-emperor (Hey Frank Herbert can I copy your notes? Sure 40k but change enough to make it seem original) has basically turned arrakis into a jungle paradise to wipe out space travel except for by his personal....secretions...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this seems like a really bad take. The entire scene in the stilltent is about him being overwhelmed by the horrors ahead. And the Paul we see in this film has very scattershot prescience anyway. It's after he takes the Water of Life that his prescience levels up and sees things more clearly..although it also remains imperfect.

The focus of this film -- and that part of the book -- isn't about the Jihad or the Golden Path anyway. It's about the fall of House Atreides. I thought the stilltent scene was the *perfect* amount of foreshadowing to the audience. There's no need to spend any more time dealing with things that won't pay off until the next movie and the movie after that...if Messiah even happens.

to be clear I"m not criticising the film adaptation here - as far as I remember they were pretty dang faithful throughout the events they covered - I'm criticising the source material itself. Dune the series gradually begins to portray Paul and his like in a horrific light, but it moves so slowly to do so that its easy to read just Dune and see him as just another omnicompetent Chosen One protagonist, and besides the absolutely brilliant worldbuilding which was just impossibly novel for scifi of its time thats kind of what Dune the series has to offer in terms of original, interesting story content, the steady breakdown of this particular heroic archetype.

Alright, gotcha.

I think it's fair to say that Herbert wanted to build up Paul in Dune in order to make the tear down in Messiah and Children more dramatic and complete. IIRC, Herbert got into it a little with his editor who --- not knowing where Herbert wanted to go with the story -- felt like it would be stuck after the first installment with Paul anointed a superhero.

But yeah, no doubt Dune can be read very wrongly because so much of the teardown is contained in those other books. I could point to parts where Paul and Jessica are willfully taking advantage of the Fremen for their own purposes, but I think that gets papered over for a lot of readers because they see Paul and Jessica's vengeance as righteous. We could also get cynical about it and say that Dune was designed this way to hook readers, since a hero's ascent is more broadly appealing (and my unscientific polling through conversations over the years has told me that some people don't like the following books as much just because they're kind of downers compared to Dune). Again, Herbert had editors who wanted to sell books...although I think it was actually just viewed as the best way to structure the rise and fall.

One could have a good debate over who's more horrific -- Paul or Leto II. Paul is ultimately too soft-hearted to follow the Golden Path, which makes the Jihad look like a picnic but is key to humanity's survival. Leto was raised Fremen and therefore doesn't balk at doing an incredibly cruel thing in the name of survival. Humanity survives because of Leto, but talk about blood on one's hands. And I've heard about some people reading Leto very wrongly also...as if tyranny and cruelty were the point, which they were not.

trexmeyer wrote:
Sardaukar can't commit genocide against the Fremen because the Fremen go on to launch a galaxy-wide jihad. Clearly an insignificant number of them were wiped out. The Sardaukar were trying desperately to kill them off because (in-universe) they realize Arrakis is basically Salus Secundus 2.0 and the Fremen are the new and improved Sardaukar.

Committing Genocide and succeeding at Genocide are two different things.
The Sardaukar along with the Harkonan very much do conduct a Genocide war on the Fremen. They target and wipe out whole settlements, attacking known population centres and civilians. Their intention is to wipe out all the Fremen. Now this doesn't work because they are unaware just how many Fremen there are and how organised they are.

 Overread wrote:

Committing Genocide and succeeding at Genocide are two different things.

They very much aren't. Attempting genocide and succeeding would be different, but in this context committing and succeeding are synonymous.

Voss wrote:
Pretty sure there's something about burning the attackers with ship engines or something, not that the kids and old folks are physically beating them off with sticks. More a trap/ambush.

Actually it is the opposite = Sardaukar were only able to escape using jet engines as the flamethrowers, otherwise overwhelmed by the old people, women and children.
Quote from the book:
“My Sardaukar used the attitudinal jets on their carrier as flame-throwers,” the Emperor said. “A move of desperation and the only thing that got them away with their three prisoners. Mark that, my dear Baron: Sardaukar forced to retreat in confusion from women and children and old men!”
It was a really silly way to show how badass the Fremen are.

Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

 Overread wrote:
Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

The Saraukar were trained killers. They had only one purpose in life = to kill in the name of their emperor. Having woman trained to defend themselves, old warriors and children teached how to survive in their harsh climate, does not explain how could they beat, almost without an effort, experienced executioner force. And yes, the Sardaukar did have some victories but the book says that there was a 5 to 1 ratio = 5 dead Sardaukar to kill 1 Fremen. It makes no sense unless you believe in that BS theory, that is also present in 40k, that harsher the conditions the better warrior you are. And the Fremen were supposed to kill Sardaukar using the mentioned ratio even before Paul and Jessica trained them in weirding ways.

.... and the rebels in Star Wars go through Stormtroopers like a hot light saber through butter even though they should not.

A lot of people have spilled a lot of ink on why. Ultimately, it comes down to "The Protagonists and their Allies Win". Trying to go beyond that is an exercise in futility.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.

maybe just once I want to see a suit of space armor in a movie be effective at anything. In Rogue 1 a stormtrooper literally gets bonked in the helmet with a stick and, apparently, dies.

Its the same as modern day armour against firearms - never works in films for bad guys

Fantasy armour against anything - again never seems to deflect blows or arrows...

 Easy E wrote:
.... and the rebels in Star Wars go through Stormtroopers like a hot light saber through butter even though they should not.

A lot of people have spilled a lot of ink on why. Ultimately, it comes down to "The Protagonists and their Allies Win". Trying to go beyond that is an exercise in futility.

Comparing a work of pulp that began as little more than a homage to science fantasy serials and samurai flicks to what is ostensibly a serious, philosophical piece of literature strikes me as disingenuous.

That's also pretty inaccurate. In A New Hope the Imperials board and wipe out the ship easily. They also blow a planet up. In The Empire Strikes Back they crush the rebel forces on Hoth. The rebels are happy just to escape.

Faceless Rebels don't mow down faceless Imperials. If anything, the reverse is true. The lead protagonists are the ones doing the damage and even then Obi-Wan is killed, Luke loses a duel and his hand, Han Solo is captured, etc.

The Fremen don't take meaningful losses. The Atreides do.

trexmeyer wrote:
Comparing a work of pulp that began as little more than a homage to science fantasy serials and samurai flicks to what is ostensibly a serious, philosophical piece of literature strikes me as disingenuous.

I think you've answered your own question there. While I dunno that Dune is 'serious' philosophy, the author is interested in telling a science fiction story about politics and religion and ecology and adaptation...not in delivering a treatise on real-world combat scenarios. The passage in question serves to make a statement about the effects of 'home turf' and adaptation to an environment when combined with extreme religious zeal. And that's really it.

And let's remember that section is extremely vague. We could come up with different scenarios where a elite force could take heavy losses to a weaker native force, and they'd probably involve the native force using its environmental knowledge and not giving the elite but not adapted force the straight-up fight they prefer.

Besides, willing suspension of disbelief has to come into play with almost any science-fiction work, or you'll bogged down with all the fantastic details and miss the larger ideas.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

The Saraukar were trained killers. They had only one purpose in life = to kill in the name of their emperor. Having woman trained to defend themselves, old warriors and children teached how to survive in their harsh climate, does not explain how could they beat, almost without an effort, experienced executioner force. And yes, the Sardaukar did have some victories but the book says that there was a 5 to 1 ratio = 5 dead Sardaukar to kill 1 Fremen. It makes no sense unless you believe in that BS theory, that is also present in 40k, that harsher the conditions the better warrior you are. And the Fremen were supposed to kill Sardaukar using the mentioned ratio even before Paul and Jessica trained them in weirding ways.

In theory harsher conditions (to a point) can breed a stronger fighter, however yes fantasy/scifi often takes this simple concept into the extremes

That said Sadaukar losing to "woman, children and old men" still makes sense to me. The key is to accept that the Sadaukar, whilst highly trained warriors, were not prepared for resistance that they met. They were taken by surprise and that in turn unseated what strategy they had. I also have a vague memory that at some stage somewhere its mentioned that the Sadaukar are so feared that they've not actually had many real wars/fights in a long while. Yes their world is harsh and horrid, but they've not actually been to war against serious opposition in a long long while. Ergo the Sadaukar might be highly trained but could be more "green" than many of the Fremen who have been fighting for generations against the Empire in its various forms taking over their world.

 Overread wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

The Saraukar were trained killers. They had only one purpose in life = to kill in the name of their emperor. Having woman trained to defend themselves, old warriors and children teached how to survive in their harsh climate, does not explain how could they beat, almost without an effort, experienced executioner force. And yes, the Sardaukar did have some victories but the book says that there was a 5 to 1 ratio = 5 dead Sardaukar to kill 1 Fremen. It makes no sense unless you believe in that BS theory, that is also present in 40k, that harsher the conditions the better warrior you are. And the Fremen were supposed to kill Sardaukar using the mentioned ratio even before Paul and Jessica trained them in weirding ways.

In theory harsher conditions (to a point) can breed a stronger fighter, however yes fantasy/scifi often takes this simple concept into the extremes

That said Sadaukar losing to "woman, children and old men" still makes sense to me. The key is to accept that the Sadaukar, whilst highly trained warriors, were not prepared for resistance that they met. They were taken by surprise and that in turn unseated what strategy they had. I also have a vague memory that at some stage somewhere its mentioned that the Sadaukar are so feared that they've not actually had many real wars/fights in a long while. Yes their world is harsh and horrid, but they've not actually been to war against serious opposition in a long long while. Ergo the Sadaukar might be highly trained but could be more "green" than many of the Fremen who have been fighting for generations against the Empire in its various forms taking over their world.

You are correct that the Sardaukar in the time of Dune are not the same as in the past. It is also mentioned that even funds for their training were cut. Still, they are above the majority of fighters in the Imperium. Also every special forces soldier, and that is what they are, when suprised by the enemy will adapt current strategy or invent new so them being totally suprised by the agression/skills of the Fremen women etc. is unlikely. It is especially silly when you remember that they were fighting Fremen since the original Harkonnen attack on the Atreides = they will have all the knowledge about how fierce the entire Fremen population is.

They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

 Overread wrote:
They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

Sardaukar were making pogroms of Fremen even before they left Arrakis after wiping out the Atreides so they definitely had fighting knowledge of the entire Fremen population. At the time of the battle for the Arrakis they would be fully prepered for what to expect of any Fremen camp. Also at that time they would assume a heavy resistance of every Fremen contact based simply from the experience unless of course the ones sent there were somehow the most incompetent morons. You would expect that for such an important mission the very best and suited for such an action would be selected. Being overwhelmed by the numbers is one thing but going blindly or be suprised by the obvious factors is another. For me that part of the book together with other military sections, especially ones about the Sardaukar, is simply the weak point. It is very likely caused by either the author having limited knowledge about military matters or, which is more probable, simply using the rool of cool, to show how the Arrakis breds the superior warriors.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Overread wrote:
They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

Sardaukar were making pogroms of Fremen even before they left Arrakis after wiping out the Atreides so they definitely had fighting knowledge of the entire Fremen population. At the time of the battle for the Arrakis they would be fully prepered for what to expect of any Fremen camp. Also at that time they would assume a heavy resistance of every Fremen contact based simply from the experience unless of course the ones sent there were somehow the most incompetent morons. You would expect that for such an important mission the very best and suited for such an action would be selected. Being overwhelmed by the numbers is one thing but going blindly or be suprised by the obvious factors is another. For me that part of the book together with other military sections, especially ones about the Sardaukar, is simply the weak point. It is very likely caused by either the author having limited knowledge about military matters or, which is more probable, simply using the rool of cool, to show how the Arrakis breds the superior warriors.

There’s also the fact that the original pogrom was against “normal” Fremen, where as by the battle for Arrakis Jessica and Paul have spent three years teaching them Weirding Way skills.

 Jadenim wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Overread wrote:
They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

Sardaukar were making pogroms of Fremen even before they left Arrakis after wiping out the Atreides so they definitely had fighting knowledge of the entire Fremen population. At the time of the battle for the Arrakis they would be fully prepered for what to expect of any Fremen camp. Also at that time they would assume a heavy resistance of every Fremen contact based simply from the experience unless of course the ones sent there were somehow the most incompetent morons. You would expect that for such an important mission the very best and suited for such an action would be selected. Being overwhelmed by the numbers is one thing but going blindly or be suprised by the obvious factors is another. For me that part of the book together with other military sections, especially ones about the Sardaukar, is simply the weak point. It is very likely caused by either the author having limited knowledge about military matters or, which is more probable, simply using the rool of cool, to show how the Arrakis breds the superior warriors.

There’s also the fact that the original pogrom was against “normal” Fremen, where as by the battle for Arrakis Jessica and Paul have spent three years teaching them Weirding Way skills.

It is true, and at the same time it is another weak spot in the novel. Would it, in just 3 years, be possible to have not only all the warriors but the entire populace trained in ''magic'' martial arts to the point that even the weakest could face the best killers in the Imperium?

5 seconds googling says that it takes 32 weeks to take a raw recruit and train them to marine standards. So that's well under a year.


Considering that the Fremen are already a warrior people before Paul shows up to train them and you've already got a population with experience in combat to start with. So the Weirding Way is more a style of combat rather than teaching them combat in general. So 3 years you could well train a significant portion of the population. Especially as they are already compliant and willing to train from their history so its not really a huge cultural change for them either.

 Overread wrote:
5 seconds googling says that it takes 32 weeks to take a raw recruit and train them to marine standards. So that's well under a year.


Considering that the Fremen are already a warrior people before Paul shows up to train them and you've already got a population with experience in combat to start with. So the Weirding Way is more a style of combat rather than teaching them combat in general. So 3 years you could well train a significant portion of the population. Especially as they are already compliant and willing to train from their history so its not really a huge cultural change for them either.

And how many of those ''1 year marines'' will survive the first real combat vs ones that did nothing but killing since they were children? There would be no 5 to 1 ratio of kills between similary experienced fighters. And the harsh environment breeds survivors but not magically makes you a great warrior material. In real life those women, children, old warriors would at best delay the bloody minded killers sent there.

Having actually done USMC Boot, I want to clarify something. The physical demands are not great. I saw recruits that could barely do 5 pullups and run three miles get through it. The minimum standards are incredibly low because all branches need bodies.

Given that you say 32 weeks I assume that whatever you found was referring to SOI. That is more demanding, but I've known guys that did it that I could literally ragdoll around a basketball court. Again, the minimum standards, even for infantry, aren't terribly high. Boot Camp is really just a mental challenge + a bit of luck in avoiding injury. Oh, and no one comes out of any of the entry-level schools (boot, SOI, MCT, MOS schools) a killer unless they were already a three gun, MMA, ultramarathoner hard ass beforehand.

As nice as this was to see on the big screen, the 2000 mini series is miles better.

Given that it was presented in three parts, and they wanted to push the new Dune as "the next Lord of the Rings", then they should have just gone with a trilogy and been done with it.

The problem is most production studios/investors really don't want to commit to 3 films at once.

Even Dune being made in 2 films was a gamble as the 2nd film wasn't green lit until after the 1st had hit the screens. Even without a pandemic messing everything up that's a huge risk.


Lord of the Rings likely only got the 3 film deal due to a lot of passion and the fact that, as a "franchise" its maintained itself for decades. IT's a very strong name to attach to something so there was a lot more trust that they could march 3 films out and get a block buster each time.


Most other film series can't do that. Even Harry Potter and Starwars films were made one after the other (something that worked to HP's favour as it meant that as the films came out the actors for the kids aged up about right for their roles - more or less). Even then they had issues - long production times come with increased risk of technology changing; the world changing; markets shifting; actors moving on/getting pregnant/suffering illness or death etc...

Giving films more time to tell their story can produce much better films because they can follow the source material and have time to develop the story. Similarly too little time or poorly paced time and you can end up with something like Avatar - technically and visually amazing - but a story that has to cut big chunks of development time to push it forward as fast as they can.

Not shooting the messenger( you seem a decent person, if I may say so ) but that's their problem if they choose to tackle the most worshipped science-fiction novel of all time, and promise something as big as LOTR and Star Wars. With expectations that high, there is only "the chicago way"...