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Azuza001 wrote:

Only thing that stops it are things that shut down auras, morty won't get effected from the -3ld because he stops the auras from working. The rest of his army though..... time to see how that squad of 3 deathshroud terms like our toys.... lol.

Clarification, he prevents enemy units within 3" from being affected by aura abilities (excluding psyker powers) from units in the enemy army. The auras themselves are still there, they just cant affect enemies (IE: Drukhari in this hypothetical). Morty is still taking the -3 because the ability doesn't prevent friendly units (IE: Death Guard) from being affected.

Azuza001 wrote:
So I wanted to ask, having read a large portion of this I don't see anyone talking about Phantasm Grenade launchers? My first thought was

Venoms in the dark creed with Grisly Trophies to get -3ld bubble followed by raiders / kabilite sybrites / wych hekatrix all with Phantasm Grenade launchers. Even an bladeguard vets unit with an aincent in it is dropped to 7. then just peppering them with mass Grenade shots.... bye bye bladeguard vets?

I mean my first list I came up with is running 8 of the launchers, assuming numbers of averages that 16 shots, 11 hits, 5 or 6 mortal wounds onto such a tough unit. And they have high ld, a russ tank commander wouldn't be anywhere near that lucky. Or a hive tyrant or Chaos deamon prince.... even necrons dropping them to 7 to pepper a doomsday ark or something else big....

A PGL deals an average of 0.4 MW if you drop an opponent down to Ld7 from 10. Not a super amazing weapon tbh, at that point, and it requires ld-bombing with specifically Dark Creed, which is something of a less powerful creed.

There is, however, one thing I was considering: using other ld-bombing allies to accomplish similar things.

Consider the following:

Poisoned Tongue Battalion

Murderarchon
Drazar

6x5 Kabalite warriors with PGLs
3x Raiders with PGL+Trophies

Silent Shroud Patrol

Shadowseer
Solitaire with Mask of Secrets (1cp)
Death Jester

5x troupe with some wargear
5x troupe with some wargear

2x2 haywire skyweavers
2x Starweavers

Craftworld Patrol

Farseer on bike
5x rangers
1x Hemlock Wraithfighter with Terrify

Using a list setup like this, you can EASILY drop any target down in leadership just to an absurd degree, and you've got 9 PGLs and Mind War and the Credann grenade launcher and Drazar with Tormentors to just pile on the mortal wounds and negative side-effects, so even if you're up against a totally fearless opponent, you're getting use out of that.

Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

the_scotsman wrote:


A PGL deals an average of 0.4 MW if you drop an opponent down to Ld7 from 10. Not a super amazing weapon tbh, at that point, and it requires ld-bombing with specifically Dark Creed, which is something of a less powerful creed.

I got 0.55 MW for LD 7

2 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/12 8+ on 2 d6?

Not a huge number, but when we're talking about something like 30 points for 6 of them to do 3.3 mortal wounds on average each turn I'd happily pay it many times over if I could. If we could just spend 300 points on that same output it would be 30+ mortal wounds a turn.

Plus a lot of units will be starting at leadership 8 or 9 instead of 10 so the numbers are even higher against most armies.

One other nice thing to remember for calculations is that it is a blast weapon. Many of the units I want to use it against are super durable units that opponents bring in large enough squads to maximize buffs which means it's going to be a flat 3 shots each. Brings the averages even higher and if you're running black heart and don't use the reroll on your raider lance shot that helps even more.

I'm a fan of the PGL on everything right now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

 StrayIight wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

How did I forget about those! Yeah dirty for sure. Though - they don't have aircraft speed. Just really fast for a normal unit. VRB is almost impossible to defend against. Plus I only have 5 of the buggers. Need more for sure to really try them out.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

How did I forget about those! Yeah dirty for sure. Though - they don't have aircraft speed. Just really fast for a normal unit. VRB is almost impossible to defend against. Plus I only have 5 of the buggers. Need more for sure to really try them out.

You want aircraft speed? Put Hypex on them, use the strat to double the effect of drugs and then Advance. Looking at 14"+4"+1D6". It's not top end aircraft fast, but it is bottom aircraft speed.

I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I've always loved them as a unit visually, and they're certainly worth taking now. But you're not wrong, 20 of them is a big unit to try and hide, and you know any opponent worth their salt is going to be well aware of that average of 10 mortals they can dish out from EF alone - they're bound to attract fire.

I'm wondering (mostly as a thought experiment really), how much staying power is gained for them via a combination of getting them to T5 with the combat drug, minus -1 to hit with the reflexes strat and 'Invigorated by...' for the invuln.

Potentially, given the unit size, it might even be possible to daisy chain a few in range of a Chronos, and have it resurrect a couple each turn possibly?

That starts to look like a lot of investment in one unit, but given the output and cost of 20 Hellions, might be worth it.

(It's a pity EF specifies it has to be used in the movement phase, otherwise there would be some ridiculous shenanigans to be had using 'Never stationary' alongside it... )

 StrayIight wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

Can confirm with my test game where i got to use it on 15 hellions twice: Eviscerating Flyby feels ridiculously good.

I'm not even all that jazzed about the vrb. it's one use, deals 1.5mws to all units within 6" of a point on the battlefield (1 to characters). it has the POTENTIAL to take a big vital part of your army apart, but it feels like a Timmy piece to me. Big, impressive, awesome, but ultimately something an opponent who knows his stuff is just going to see and generally mitigate, leaving you with units spaced out such that you can only get one good target for the bomb and then maybe a couple more suboptimal targets.

the reason the flying hedbutt burna bomber is a potent competitive tool is that it's so dang reliable. You can aim the thing. You know EXACTLY how many wounds it'll do. this thing is uncertain. It might deal 6mw to a critical character and wipe them right off the map. More likely, it won't, or it'll hit them and roll a 1 for how many wounds. I think they're also too expensive to justify 2, which is basically what you'd want to bring to make them reliable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

...why would a reaver be easier to hide? they're basically identical in terms of model size. If anything reavers are longer.

hellions aren't bad in any cult IMO, but they're especially good in test of skill, where you get them wounding most vehicles/monsters on 4s. Their glaives getting "1.33" AP up from zero really really helped them.

Audustum wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

How did I forget about those! Yeah dirty for sure. Though - they don't have aircraft speed. Just really fast for a normal unit. VRB is almost impossible to defend against. Plus I only have 5 of the buggers. Need more for sure to really try them out.

You want aircraft speed? Put Hypex on them, use the strat to double the effect of drugs and then Advance. Looking at 14"+4"+1D6". It's not top end aircraft fast, but it is bottom aircraft speed.

There's a cult obsession that makes hypex +4" base so doubled it'd actually be 8". Not sure if it's worth it but that'd be a 22" move without advancing and not considering charge. It's not bikes fast but it's still fairly fast.

 lessthanjeff wrote:


I'm a fan of the PGL on everything right now.

PGL is amazing if spammed in a list with several Dark Creed units. Otherwise it's a legit option but can be skipped; the only unit that should auto take a PGL no matter what is the 10 man trueborn squad as they hit on 2s.

the_scotsman wrote:


...why would a reaver be easier to hide? they're basically identical in terms of model size. If anything reavers are longer.

Reavers are less 'dynamic'; they are longer and narrower, which can be easier to hide.

There is also the factor that the Hellion units being mused are twice the size, to take maximum advantage of EFB; hiding 20 Hellions can be challenging.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

I agree with the Voidraven. My friend plays triple VRB and on a good roll he can easily decimate his opponents on a good run. I know a lot of people underestimate the VRB because they just see 6" radius, but are surprised when the diameter is actually 12" and 12" is a large portion of the table.

 Blackie wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:


I'm a fan of the PGL on everything right now.

PGL is amazing if spammed in a list with several Dark Creed units. Otherwise it's a legit option but can be skipped; the only unit that should auto take a PGL no matter what is the 10 man trueborn squad as they hit on 2s.

I put a PGL spam list together, its -4CP, but I don't care about CP in the list TBH.

Thay PGL list is hilarious. I'd love to give that a try.

 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I think 20 is a pipe dream. 10-12 will still be hard to work with BUT could actually fit in the places you need to hide such a unit to make it's ambushes. This unit will not survive dedicated fire so it has to be used that way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I think 20 is a pipe dream. 10-12 will still be hard to work with BUT could actually fit in the places you need to hide such a unit to make it's ambushes. This unit will not survive dedicated fire so it has to be used that way.

8.5pts per T4 5+ 6++ wound. If your opponent doesn't have heavy bolters (the only common weapon in the game that I know of that's actually ideal to target them with) then I don't see how they're particularly flimsy compared to anything else in our army.

Most D2 weaponry pays for high strength and AP that will mostly be wasted, and most D1 weaponry will run up against a defensive profile that's basically 'orks but you only get one turn to target them before they're on you.'

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I think 20 is a pipe dream. 10-12 will still be hard to work with BUT could actually fit in the places you need to hide such a unit to make it's ambushes. This unit will not survive dedicated fire so it has to be used that way.

8.5pts per T4 5+ 6++ wound. If your opponent doesn't have heavy bolters (the only common weapon in the game that I know of that's actually ideal to target them with) then I don't see how they're particularly flimsy compared to anything else in our army.

Most D2 weaponry pays for high strength and AP that will mostly be wasted, and most D1 weaponry will run up against a defensive profile that's basically 'orks but you only get one turn to target them before they're on you.'

Bolters kill them just fine at t4 and they are naturally t3. I'm gonna be rolling 2 dice every time for combat drugs cause it's just better most of the time but I can't guarantee the t4 that way. Even at t4 they are dying to standard anti infantry firepower at a very high rate.

For example a 10 man intecessor with Autoboltguns popping rapid fire strat in tactical doctrine is going to kill 8 of them without rerolls or their grenades. With rerolls and nades they will kill 15ish.

Hellions are base T4.

Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.

 StrayIight wrote:
Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.

I get between 7 and 8 BS3+ shots with no special rules support. The 60 shot ABR Intercessor combo will kill 3-4.

Hellions arent quite Death Rider or Scarab levels of PPW efficiency, but they're not too far off.

So I give mine +2" Move drug and double it to +4". 18"Move is pretty good for helping to get them hidden and in position for eviscerating.

Sterling191 wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:
Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.

I get between 7 and 8 BS3+ shots with no special rules support. The 60 shot ABR Intercessor combo will kill 3-4.

Hellions arent quite Death Rider or Scarab levels of PPW efficiency, but they're not too far off.

Thanks Stirling, makes me feel better someone having gotten a similar result

What's nice is that they're well placed to be quite the boogieman in peoples heads. investing significant fire toward bringing them down potentially means ignoring that 20 man squad of Wyches, that 'Blenderella' or 'Stabrina' Succubus build, the Void Raven heading straight for your castled up units..

So many threats, so little bolter ammo

Yeah, hellions were already the thing in my list that literally every single person massively overestimated what they were going to do (because, I mean, look at them) and targeted them rather than the transports filled with true glass cannon units.

Now that they're actually durable enough to take some decent hits instead of just crumpling like a wet paper bag and they are a real actual threat instead of a theoretical one that's greatly elevated by how they look, I'm a huge huge fan.

Hey guys, I just came from my second game with the new Codex. I started a Crusade with my buddy that plays Blood Angels.
The game was an Incursion Mission, 50 PL each. And it didn't feel balanced at all. It was an "horizontal" deployment, allowing early charges.

He had a couple HQs, Choppy Marines for Troops, Sanguinary Guard, Bladeguard Veterans and a Dreadnought.

I had Kabs and Archon in a Raider, 10 Incubi and another Archon in a second Raider, 10 Wyches and the Succ in the third one and 5 Mandrakes for screening.

First Round
I go first, I put 7 wounds in the Dreadnought and not much else.
He sends the Guard and the Jetpack Captain to my lines to destroy my Raiders screened by the 5 Mandrakes. The incursors and the Chaplain also charge. He destroys one and the 5 Raiders. The Kabs jump down.

Second Round
The Incubi and the Wyches disembark. They advance and charge. The good Archon and the Incubi do the same.

It's been a blood bath.

10 wyches and the Succubus slayed everything in his deployment zone but a couple Bladeguard.
The 10 Incubi and the Archon murdered the Incursors, the Guard, the Chaplain and the Captain.

We didn't play the third round, but we agreed that we have to improve his list or change the way we play because that was a stomp.

- Should we play bigger games? Should we play with points instead of PL?
- Maybe I tone down my list a little? How can we improve his list?

Maybe Drukhari just destroy Marines now... at least the choppy ones.

I don't know about PL - but for better or worse I think you'll find most things built for combat will destroy most things (barring possibly Bladeguard, DA/DG Terminators etc) on the charge. If for example you were to hop out of your raiders and let all the Blood Angels army charge your wyches+incubi, you'd probably find they got squashed instead.

I think, for what it's worth, much of your result was about the specific matchup.

I think we are very much a melee army now. It's where we do our best work. Our basic shooting - splinter rifles - hit ok, wound about half the time against other 'basic' troop types, and invariably then get saved (against anything with a reasonable save like MEQ's) as it has literally no AP.

Compare that to our basic melee unit, Wyches.

We've been handed extra tools in this codex that increase our ability in assault. Across just about all units.

Against Elite melee armies like Blood angels, you have multiple tools that force them to have no choice but to fight last. Our speed means we can utterly dictate who charges and where.

Quite honestly, a well built Drukhari list, might represent the premier assault army in 40k right now.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.

I agree with the Voidraven. My friend plays triple VRB and on a good roll he can easily decimate his opponents on a good run. I know a lot of people underestimate the VRB because they just see 6" radius, but are surprised when the diameter is actually 12" and 12" is a large portion of the table.

I haven't really come across anybody that thinks the radius is too small, but I have come across legit good players that understand how to game it's footprint.

At the end of the day you can't just go by pencil and paper average numbers. It doesn't do 1.75 mortals to everything within 6" it's a coin flip if it does or doesn't do anything and trust me there are win big units and dud units. This is where smart players come in, they aren't going to put those blade guard vets next to their terminators and that chief apothecary for example, but give you a hard choice on which 1 or 2 you want to gamble on plus some secondary irrelevant targets like intercessors.

Then if you don't kill that chief apothecary he undoes most of that mines work on that other hard target.

You also pretty much have to drop the mine ASAP, especially if you go second, and much of the time that means flying off the table and losing out on it's other weapon systems.

I don't mind it, but I think at it's current price tag and random impact that can be further stretched by smart players it's definitely a gamblers choice. I can see using one to really mess with your opponents deployment and draw fire, or in poison tongue you could redeploy it for a better angle or protect it but I think 3 would be a massive over investment that would completely fall flat verse certain armies and remove a lot of your armies ability to play objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StrayIight wrote:
Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.

Also lets not forget hellions are infantry, meaning you can get cover on much of the units members easily which can be further improved by Hunt from the Shadows.

-1 to hit from dense or lightning fast reactions with a 3+ save from HftS and T5 that can be boosted to T6 verse specific weapons you might come against is actually incredibly durable for their points.

I managed to make 20 hellions work twice out of about 5 showings in 8th when they sucked and the terrain rules were harder, heck even the eviscerating FB was harder to use lol. I think 20 in 9th will at minimum burn your opponents fire priority. Remember there is victory in drawing ineffective fire from your opponent as well fellas.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I managed to make 20 hellions work twice out of about 5 showings in 8th when they sucked and the terrain rules were harder, heck even the eviscerating FB was harder to use lol.

You are a hero, mate