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 harlokin wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

I managed to make 20 hellions work twice out of about 5 showings in 8th when they sucked and the terrain rules were harder, heck even the eviscerating FB was harder to use lol.

You are a hero, mate

Well even I had to admit my fortune and quit while I was ahead before that ratio got real bad But thanks I'll take it!

Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?

 harlokin wrote:
Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?

I kinda like a mixture. Raiders are very good but I think there comes a point where the density of DL spam becomes too much and the extra splinter fire from a Venom can be very helpful in cleaning up the odd wound here or there before firing Blasters or DLs. Venoms are much better to use as throwaway charging units to hold stuff up too, because you don't lose a DL shot if you're tied up in combat and their weapons can actually help them out in melee too. The smaller footprint also makes them easier to hide. I definitely think we'll see much less Venom spam now (possibly none) but I think they still have a place.

 harlokin wrote:
Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?

with the -1 to hit they have close to equal durability, so really I'd just say 'if you have a need for one of the raider-specific extra rules ie splinter racks, or if you need to transport 11 rather than 6 dudes, then raiders make more sense, otherwise just consider the venom an alternate weapon profile if you want a raider that's more geared to anti-infantry'.

in dark tech for example, I think venoms make a lot of sense, idk whether a raider would work as well as it concentrates 2 of your super-liquifier squads into a single target.

Raiders are also helpful to add a few PGLs to a list that relies on morale bombs provided by Dark Creed models. Venoms can't take a PGL.

Raiders are also faster and Enahnced Aethersails doesn't work on Venoms. Greater transport capacity also.

Venoms are smaller and easier to hide, has innate -1 to hit, moves faster without the need of stratagems, and has more shots.

So they have good enough differences to matter.

 Blackie wrote:
Raiders are also helpful to add a few PGLs to a list that relies on morale bombs provided by Dark Creed models. Venoms can't take a PGL.

Raiders are also faster and Enahnced Aethersails doesn't work on Venoms. Greater transport capacity also.

Venoms are faster, aren't they? 16" vs 14"? You can aethersail a raider but otherwise venoms are a bit faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Venoms are smaller and easier to hide, has innate -1 to hit, moves faster without the need of stratagems, and has more shots.

So they have good enough differences to matter.

Them being smaller is also a salient point. Raiders can make use of dense cover, though.

I think it's a toss up, personally, I think generally raiders are a slightly better point for point unit in general but venoms are still a legitimate choice in many setups.

the 10pts when it comes to a unit being 75 rather than 85pts is not something to scoff at either, it's an over 10% points difference to the unit, and I would say in general a raider is a roughly "10% better" unit rather than being night-and-day better.

Thanks for the inputs guys.

Now that Battlescribe has updated, I'm tinkering with some small (1'300 point) lists, and was wondering where to put my beatstick Archon...

a) In a Raider with 10 Obsidian Rose Trueborn, despite tha fact that they are intended as a long range fire platform?

b) In a Raider with my Succubus and Wyches, but requiring me to drop the unit size down to 9 (and thereby lose all special Wych weapons)?

c) Swap the Venom Drazhar and 5 Incubi are riding in to a Raider, and add the Archon, even though it makes that transport an even more tempting target?
.

the_scotsman wrote:


Venoms are faster, aren't they? 16" vs 14"? You can aethersail a raider but otherwise venoms are a bit faster.

Oh right, I wrongly thought it was 14'' and 16'' in favor of Raiders.

I'd argue for Raiders.

They're quite a bit more durable for that extra 10 points. S5 has long been something of a 'break point' which many people have built around. T6 then, takes advantage of that somewhat. -1 To hit is largely a wash to my mind, as both effectively have access to it, and now that hit modifiers largely don't stack, you often get into situations where the heavy penalty (as one example) has already come into play.

Also, on any transport carrying melee units: Shock Prow! I'm not sure if I've missed something, or if it's flown under the radar a bit, but for it's cost, this thing can be ludicrously good! Against infantry, roll a D6 for every model in the charged unit, and if you roll greater OR equal to that models toughness, it takes a mortal wound.

It doesn't quite have the potential of eviscerating flyby, but against screens and infantry blobs it does some serious work! It'll even soften up a smaller group of elite infantry in what's generally a worthwhile manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
Thanks for the inputs guys.

Now that Battlescribe has updated, I'm tinkering with some small (1'300 point) lists, and was wondering where to put my beatstick Archon...

a) In a Raider with 10 Obsidian Rose Trueborn, despite tha fact that they are intended as a long range fire platform?

b) In a Raider with my Succubus and Wyches, but requiring me to drop the unit size down to 9 (and thereby lose all special Wych weapons)?

c) Swap the Venom Drazhar and 5 Incubi are riding in to a Raider, and add the Archon, even though it makes that transport an even more tempting target?
.

If it has to be a choice of A, B or C, I'd go with C. That Venom will be tempting anyway really, and a Raider will probably stand up to fire a little better. As he's a murder Archon he's likely best placed with a melee unit.

Option C is the only one of the three presented which doesn't seem to have you 'give up' something.

Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.

Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.

It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.

the_scotsman wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.

It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.

That's living the dream

 harlokin wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.

It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.

That's living the dream

"Shock PROW? i'm gonna use the whole boat!"

 the_scotsman wrote:


"Shock PROW? i'm gonna use the whole boat!"

Love it. That's pretty close to being a new sig quote right there.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.

It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.

Now I have to paint my raiders in super crazy color shift or metallic colors with neon lights and other car bling and make them so glossy they reflect the table and terrain all around them.

Thanks.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?

with the -1 to hit they have close to equal durability, so really I'd just say 'if you have a need for one of the raider-specific extra rules ie splinter racks, or if you need to transport 11 rather than 6 dudes, then raiders make more sense, otherwise just consider the venom an alternate weapon profile if you want a raider that's more geared to anti-infantry'.

in dark tech for example, I think venoms make a lot of sense, idk whether a raider would work as well as it concentrates 2 of your super-liquifier squads into a single target.

Just to throw in another spanner you have to remember that raiders also have access to the PGL which would allow it to advance and use "never Stationary" and it also has access to aether sails.

I like this even more for dark tech as you can move a raider 29" THEN shoot your 12" liquifiers. Which is an incredible amount of reach, and even better you get to pack two squads (4 liquifiers) into that raider. I think that has more advantages then disadvantages especially given the long body of the raider as you can cover a massive zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to go over some of that build stratagies

Raider with PGL
Squad A Wracks
Squad B Wracks

1. Move the raider forward, possible advance with enhanced sails. Shoot Squad A and B then the raider. Use never stationary to move 7" behind terrain/back etc.

2. Move Raider forward, again option to enhanced sails advance. Shoot squad A, then the raider. Use never stationary to move another 7" to next target then fire squad B

3. Move Raider forward, possible sails. Shoot raider, proc never stationary to move further 7" then fire Squads A and B.

It's an incredibly flexible package of units that also has two squads of obsec inside that your opponent needs to consider any time he shoots at it while it's near objectives.

Just thought id tell ya guys about a neat strategy ive been using in my games!

For a really safe and easy deploy scarmblers, ive found mandrakes are top tier. Scout them into the center first turn and deploy, advanced them back second turn (preferably on an objective), third turn deploy scrambler in your home, then redeploy with their second ability fourth turn, and fifth turn finally pop back down in your enemy's home and deploy the final one!

Ive managed to pull it off every game, its essentially 10 points off 75 points of models.

Sounds like the perfect use of them. Nice work description.

Did somebody order DT Liquefiers?

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-ratcon-2021-comic-quest-gt/

Goon, wtf is that formatting....

Also All my lists so far has had 3x5 Wracks with 2 LG each, he only took 2 units, and I've seen some take 6 units of them, So i wouldn't say he "ordered LG Wracks".

Re-formatted it so you can actually read it ffs

Damn. Pretty varied list. Weird that I can look at tourney lists recently and not want to vomit even a little bit in my mouth.

We are definitely in an interesting position. I never thought dark scythes would replace dissies but I think I will use them that way. 12 shots on 2 planes with better void mine and some missiles just in case you didn’t feel fully satisfied. I’m not sure what obsessions I’ll use on my dudes but I’ve got some ideas.

I’m bummed my specialty obsession bloodbrides option is probably worse than basic incubi in most situations with anything that has more than 1 wound and isn’t infantry. I’ll probably go for covens with splinter cannons on venom but with enhanced sensory organs or possibly dark technomancers on the liquifiers. I’ll also probably go for dark lance ravagers. Not sure how I’ll run raiders but probably filled with warriors with splinter racks. We’ll see.

Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.

Sterling191 wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.

Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.

 StrayIight wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.

Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.

So an interesting idea I had was to take Precision Blows, Razorflails and Dark Lotus Toxin with Adrenalight. Gives better MW production than the Tryptych Whip though less regular damage.

Audustum wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.

Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.

So an interesting idea I had was to take Precision Blows, Razorflails and Dark Lotus Toxin with Adrenalight. Gives better MW production than the Tryptych Whip though less regular damage.

That'd totally work. Definitely a viable build that would perform.

The reason not to take it, is just that you're competing with the Razorflails build discussed earlier, as obviously it too requires Dark Lotus Toxin. That and again, you're required to take a dedicated CoS detachment - you can't get access to Lotus Toxin otherwise.

Really, that's the reason why you see the whip alongside Precision Blows so often I suspect. That combo doesn't require the specific detachment investment, so is easier on those going with Realspace Raid lists and the like. Razorflails without the Toxin relic are quite anaemic.

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

If I remember correctly you get an average of 28 attacks with the combo. I've already seen it kill Gman, a 10man vet squad, and a Riptide.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

If I remember correctly you get an average of 28 attacks with the combo. I've already seen it kill Gman, a 10man vet squad, and a Riptide.

It's actually 14 and then 2 for each one of those 14 that's doesn't make it to the damage step. So if they all missed/failed to wound/were saved you'd get an additional 28 ontop of the 14 for 42 total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StrayIight wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.

Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.

Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.

So an interesting idea I had was to take Precision Blows, Razorflails and Dark Lotus Toxin with Adrenalight. Gives better MW production than the Tryptych Whip though less regular damage.

That'd totally work. Definitely a viable build that would perform.

The reason not to take it, is just that you're competing with the Razorflails build discussed earlier, as obviously it too requires Dark Lotus Toxin. That and again, you're required to take a dedicated CoS detachment - you can't get access to Lotus Toxin otherwise.

Really, that's the reason why you see the whip alongside Precision Blows so often I suspect. That combo doesn't require the specific detachment investment, so is easier on those going with Realspace Raid lists and the like. Razorflails without the Toxin relic are quite anaemic.

I really like Strife and have been experimenting with just one Succubus. Thanks!