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There are a few ways to fix it

1) Cant take Razorflails, this one is the knee jerk reaction one
2) Additional attacks do not generate more attacks, this is what i think will happen
3) Pre damage step is going to change and it will be "Hits missed" instead
4) Could have added rules like "No modifiers or additional generated hits"
5) Could be limited to "can not gain more than attack characteristic" so no more than 6 attacks (or 7, or 8 with drugs, etc..)

Its honestly very interesting to me to see how GW is going to handle this.

Tyel wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if "the fix" turns out to be "you can't take competitive edge with razorflails". Its the simplest solution - upsetting for some undoubtedly - but I don't see how else you do it. A model shouldn't get 42 attacks, minus some for actually doing damage. I don't really buy "well 28 would be okay". By comparison to most other things in the game its clearly ludicrous. Jain Zar has 4. (Yes, I'm sure it will go up when the CWE codex comes out.)

(Brutally why the Succubus is allowed to take Wych weapons at all remains something of a mystery - the model explicitly without them is after all standing right there - but hopefully they wouldn't go that far. Say's the blaster-carrying Archon...)

I think it depends on the model. Disregarding 42 attacks specifically, one of the earlier instances of making multiple hit rolls for each attack is the Knights tap-dance attacks. Pretty acceptable on a 400+ point model, and arguably required for them to be viable in certain situations. Even then, you're getting around 15 swings/stomps tops usually.

But 24-48 (excuse the potentially inaccurate number range here, you understand the point I'm sure) attacks for 60 points? Even at Str 4, -1 AP, weight of numbers means very little is getting away while still breathing. I cannot imagine how any more thought was put into that than a writer simply typing something that sounded good.

I don't have an issue with a Succubus having access to Wych weapons hypothetically. In fact I'd like to see the options expanded for each of The HQ types in the book - it's flavourful, and it makes sense in terms of the fluff.
But you're quite right, mechanically it expands the potential for problematic interactions, and said interactions are not being looked for in a meaningful and diligent way within GW'S current way of doing things.

Easy fix is to re-word the extra generated attacks into hit rolls, so they can't be doubled by the razorflails rules. Simple.

Example: a succubus fights with 7 A aka 14 hit rolls. Now competitive edge should create additional hit rolls out of those 14 attacks. Say 11 of them don't reach the damage phase, then the succubus gains 11 hit rolls to be resolved with the same weapon's profile. Not 11 attacks that become 22 hit rolls.

 Blackie wrote:
Easy fix is to re-word the extra generated attacks into hit rolls, so they can't be doubled by the razorflails rules. Simple.

Example: a succubus fights with 7 A aka 14 hit rolls. Now competitive edge should create additional hit rolls out of those 14 attacks. Say 11 of them don't reach the damage phase, then the succubus gains 11 hit rolls to be resolved with the same weapon's profile. Not 11 attacks that become 22 hit rolls.

There's Rare Rule text in the CRB partially to this effect already (multiple hit rolls are treated as individual attacks). All that needs added is a specific FAQ saying it doesnt get to double dip with flails to create an exponential growth of attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New Competitive Innovations from Goonhammer this week is highlighting some more post-Codex placings. The same Cult + DT list shows up again, but with a new Kabal + Cult (including a madlad using a 20-man Hellion block) showing.

Major caveat is that these are team events and that some skew should be potentially accepted due to the nature of the shindig.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-gladiator-gaming-and-c-o-a-c-h-team-events/

I don't think "okay you can only theoretically max out on 28 swings" is the answer.

The problem is that competitive edge is busted. Razorflails take it to extremes - but really the Succubus punches massively above her weight class with this warlord trait and almost any vaguely sensible weapon combo.

A Wych warlord trait should seemingly be "worth" about 2 extra attacks (see Quicksilver fighter/Blood Dancer). Competitive Edge is clearly superior to this in every situation where you haven't annihilated whatever you ran into (and even in a 2s to hit, 2s to kill scenario it probably works out about the same). Remove the Flail and its still the case with the relic whip, or one of the relic glaives, or maybe dark lotus and an impaler for 3 damage etc.

But I guess "this warlord trait is the best." has been standard in 40k forever, so maybe its a feature not a bug.

Tyel wrote:
I don't think "okay you can only theoretically max out on 28 swings" is the answer.

The problem is that competitive edge is busted. Razorflails take it to extremes - but really the Succubus punches massively above her weight class with this warlord trait and almost any vaguely sensible weapon combo.

A Wych warlord trait should seemingly be "worth" about 2 extra attacks (see Quicksilver fighter/Blood Dancer). Competitive Edge is clearly superior to this in every situation where you haven't annihilated whatever you ran into (and even in a 2s to hit, 2s to kill scenario it probably works out about the same). Remove the Flail and its still the case with the relic whip, or one of the relic glaives, or maybe dark lotus and an impaler for 3 damage etc.

But I guess "this warlord trait is the best." has been standard in 40k forever, so maybe its a feature not a bug.

Yeah, I think I'm onboard here.

We know what a Warlord Trait usually looks like, we have one as an option sitting in print that would normally be pretty good, but you'd never take over Competitive Edge: Re-roll wound rolls.

Competitive Edge lets you: Re-roll your failed hit rolls, re-roll your failed wound rolls, re-roll your opponents successful saving throw (effectively), but words things in such a way, that these aren't actually re-rolls, but completely new attacks, thus allowing additional rules like those present on Razor Flails to 'double dip'.

Why on earth would you ever give a 're-roll your wound rolls' trait so much as a second glance over this?

It's a ludicrously good ability. On a close-combat based unit like a Succubus it's pretty much as good as it gets.

I think you probably *do* have to target the specific interaction between Flails and CE as the easiest fix now, but it doesn't get away from the idea that this Warlord trait was incredibly poorly thought through.

Grave Lotus Shardnet+Impaler +1A drugs Precision Blows:

Vs Guardsmen - 7.63 dead
Vs MEQ - 3.98 dead
Vs Terminators - 2.85 dead
Vs Standard Tank - 8.12 wounds

Grave Lotus Shardnet+impaler +1A drugs Competitive Edge:

Vs Guardsmen - 6.42 dead
Vs MEQ - 3.97 dead
Vs Terminators - 3.14 dead
Vs Standard Tank - 8.55 wounds

Slightly better vs very heavy/elite targets, about the same vs normal elites, worse vs W1 infantry because precision lets you make use of that D3 in a way that edge doesn't. I haven't mathed it out for the triptch whip, but I suspect that due to the fact its poison 2+ as opposed to just strength 4 it's going to be more reliable on the first round of swings and you'll get less benefit out of the edge trait.

Took on 1500pts of Blood Angels with 55 Wyches 5 Raiders 3 Succubi in Strife and CB Patrols. His shooting and Death Company charge against 2 Raider was ineffective due to LFR in both phases. 1Raider stayed in combat and a Dancers Edge Precision Blows Succubus and 10 Wyches carved them up. Meanwhile my other Raiders destroyed a Predator and a few Hellblasters to reduce his ranged antitank. Captain and3 Hellblasters charged one Raider destroying it but Sanguinary Guard forced to deep strike in his deployment zone failed their charge. A Flying Psyker Dread and intercessors charged and destroyed another Raider in the centre. Corbulo and Intercessors charged another Raider but it remained. Oddly he was not interested in following up into the wych squads that tumbled out of the two destroyed Raiders. In my turn 2 Every unit in my army engaged except the limping Raider that tangled with the Death Company. The Sanguinary Guard were not contacted so they survived the turn alone. This is my third game against Marines or Custodes ending on turn 2. And I do not use Razorflail Succubi. How the mighty SM cadres have fallen!

Venger6 wrote:
Took on 1500pts of Blood Angels with 55 Wyches 5 Raiders 3 Succubi in Strife and CB Patrols. His shooting and Death Company charge against 2 Raider was ineffective due to LFR in both phases. 1Raider stayed in combat and a Dancers Edge Precision Blows Succubus and 10 Wyches carved them up. Meanwhile my other Raiders destroyed a Predator and a few Hellblasters to reduce his ranged antitank. Captain and3 Hellblasters charged one Raider destroying it but Sanguinary Guard forced to deep strike in his deployment zone failed their charge. A Flying Psyker Dread and intercessors charged and destroyed another Raider in the centre. Corbulo and Intercessors charged another Raider but it remained. Oddly he was not interested in following up into the wych squads that tumbled out of the two destroyed Raiders. In my turn 2 Every unit in my army engaged except the limping Raider that tangled with the Death Company. The Sanguinary Guard were not contacted so they survived the turn alone. This is my third game against Marines or Custodes ending on turn 2. And I do not use Razorflail Succubi. How the mighty SM cadres have fallen!

Do they still want to play Drukari ? Or are they already asking you if you would kindly consider bringing another army ?

 the_scotsman wrote:
Grave Lotus Shardnet+Impaler +1A drugs Precision Blows:

Vs Guardsmen - 7.63 dead
Vs MEQ - 3.98 dead
Vs Terminators - 2.85 dead
Vs Standard Tank - 8.12 wounds

Grave Lotus Shardnet+impaler +1A drugs Competitive Edge:

Vs Guardsmen - 6.42 dead
Vs MEQ - 3.97 dead
Vs Terminators - 3.14 dead
Vs Standard Tank - 8.55 wounds

Slightly better vs very heavy/elite targets, about the same vs normal elites, worse vs W1 infantry because precision lets you make use of that D3 in a way that edge doesn't. I haven't mathed it out for the triptch whip, but I suspect that due to the fact its poison 2+ as opposed to just strength 4 it's going to be more reliable on the first round of swings and you'll get less benefit out of the edge trait.

Hands up I hadn't thought of the Precision Blows 3 damage Impaler build.
Friendship ended with Souped Up Shokka... (and its more reliable.)

My numbers are slightly different to the ones you posted above - but not that different, and I think given how weird the results are, you'd really need to work out the curves rather than using averages. (I.E. Precision Blows isn't ever going to do 4 mortal wounds - but 8/6*3=4. Competitive Edge can't give you 6.33 extra attacks on a T7/3+ tank - but thats how many I calculate won't go through on average.) Fair enough if you've done that and averaged back.

Yep, I always use averages rather than rounding, as it gives you a more accurate picture of expected performance in my opinion. I mostly just wanted to highlight that competitive edge doesn't *seem to be* head and shoulders above competing builds when you take out the current grave lotus razorflail silliness. If you start looking at other cults as well, you can start looking at things like Cursed Blade's inherent +1 strength and the Blood Glaive out of Red Grief.

Fundamentally, I just...don't know if the succubus is actually a 60-point HQ. The damage she puts out is head and shoulders above basically any other combat oriented HQ in that sort of weight class, and it isn't like she doesn't bring at least a bit of utility to the table as well what with no escape and her aura. You could make her 80-90pts base and she would still be more than fine at making back her value in casualties in a single swing.

 the_scotsman wrote:


Fundamentally, I just...don't know if the succubus is actually a 60-point HQ. The damage she puts out is head and shoulders above basically any other combat oriented HQ in that sort of weight class, and it isn't like she doesn't bring at least a bit of utility to the table as well what with no escape and her aura. You could make her 80-90pts base and she would still be more than fine at making back her value in casualties in a single swing.

That's definitely the real take away here isn't it?

At 60 points... It's wonderful to have an HQ as good as this and that is so aggressively costed available, but I can't (and I suspect we all feel the same way) hand on heart say 'Yes, 60 points is fair and appropriate for what this unit can do'. Any grumbling from players outside the DE player base is a little warranted.

The cost is particularly bizarre when you look at the various Succu-builds alongside Lelith. ...She's certainly not exactly looking like the 'Queen of Blades' or 'greatest of all Succubi' next to some of the custom HQ builds is she? Especially at her significantly higher cost.

It reminds me a little of the Malefic Lord issue at the start of 8th. Another super cheap HQ that punched significantly above it's points cost.

 StrayIight wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:


Fundamentally, I just...don't know if the succubus is actually a 60-point HQ. The damage she puts out is head and shoulders above basically any other combat oriented HQ in that sort of weight class, and it isn't like she doesn't bring at least a bit of utility to the table as well what with no escape and her aura. You could make her 80-90pts base and she would still be more than fine at making back her value in casualties in a single swing.

That's definitely the real take away here isn't it?

At 60 points... It's wonderful to have an HQ as good as this and that is so aggressively costed available, but I can't (and I suspect we all feel the same way) hand on heart say 'Yes, 60 points is fair and appropriate for what this unit can do'. Any grumbling from players outside the DE player base is a little warranted.

The cost is particularly bizarre when you look at the various Succu-builds alongside Lelith. ...She's certainly not exactly looking like the 'Queen of Blades' or 'greatest of all Succubi' next to some of the custom HQ builds is she? Especially at her significantly higher cost.

It reminds me a little of the Malefic Lord issue at the start of 8th. Another super cheap HQ that punched significantly above it's points cost.

It's not the base cost of the model that is the issue. It is the relics and WL traits. Now - that isn't necessarily an issue for an army to have "really powerful relics" as kind of a signature of the army. Every army should have a signature strength and weakness. I mean....Snipers do exist. My crons bring 10 Deathmarks in almost every list now. I could easily fit 20 by just exchanging them out for 10 points and 10 immortals. It's not like the succubus can't be handled - and raiders are FAR from indestructable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:


Fundamentally, I just...don't know if the succubus is actually a 60-point HQ. The damage she puts out is head and shoulders above basically any other combat oriented HQ in that sort of weight class, and it isn't like she doesn't bring at least a bit of utility to the table as well what with no escape and her aura. You could make her 80-90pts base and she would still be more than fine at making back her value in casualties in a single swing.

That's definitely the real take away here isn't it?

At 60 points... It's wonderful to have an HQ as good as this and that is so aggressively costed available, but I can't (and I suspect we all feel the same way) hand on heart say 'Yes, 60 points is fair and appropriate for what this unit can do'. Any grumbling from players outside the DE player base is a little warranted.

The cost is particularly bizarre when you look at the various Succu-builds alongside Lelith. ...She's certainly not exactly looking like the 'Queen of Blades' or 'greatest of all Succubi' next to some of the custom HQ builds is she? Especially at her significantly higher cost.

It reminds me a little of the Malefic Lord issue at the start of 8th. Another super cheap HQ that punched significantly above it's points cost.

It's not the base cost of the model that is the issue. It is the relics and WL traits. Now - that isn't necessarily an issue for an army to have "really powerful relics" as kind of a signature of the army. Every army should have a signature strength and weakness. I mean....Snipers do exist. My crons bring 10 Deathmarks in almost every list now. I could easily fit 20 by just exchanging them out for 10 points and 10 immortals. It's not like the succubus can't be handled - and raiders are FAR from indestructable.

You are right, 60 points if perfectly fine, move on people, there is nothing to see here.

Itd be cool if you didnt take up a third of a page in the drukhari tactica thread with a huge quote walk of text to passive aggressively snipe about how you think the faction is op.

There's a 2 minute hate thread in general, just go there please.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not the base cost of the model that is the issue. It is the relics and WL traits. Now - that isn't necessarily an issue for an army to have "really powerful relics" as kind of a signature of the army. Every army should have a signature strength and weakness. I mean....Snipers do exist. My crons bring 10 Deathmarks in almost every list now. I could easily fit 20 by just exchanging them out for 10 points and 10 immortals. It's not like the succubus can't be handled - and raiders are FAR from indestructable.

In a vacuum I agree. A succubus without a Warlord trait or relic looks far more like a 60 point model. But that 60 point model does have access to those traits and relics... which absolutely transform them into something well beyond what we expect a 60 point model to look like?
It's an interesting counter point - do you pay more for the potential that a unit has when relics/traits are added, at the cost of the naked unit being less points efficient? Certainly I can't see a relic-less, trait-less Succubus being taken by anyone with any real enthusiasm, except to fill a slot cheaply, even at the current cost.

Probably this starts to get into something that's more at the core of 40K's current mechanics than the unit itself at a certain point.

It is the Relics/WL - but there's an argument no one's ever going to run a naked Succubus so its a bit meaningless. Admittedly you could say you are spending some CP to unlock these things but... eh.

I think they have to remove the Razorflail/Competitive edge situation and then we see. But yeah, 80-90 points probably isn't breaking the bank.

I'm not sure its the same as Malefic Lords - there the problem was no rule of 3 and smite change. Okay at 30 points they were criminally undercosted and almost every chaos army would possibly be tempted to chuck 3 in (or would be if secondaries were not a thing), but it wouldn't be the same as people bringing 8+ or whatever they did for that period of the game. (Primaris Psykers had the same issue.)

 StrayIight wrote:


In a vacuum I agree. A succubus without a Warlord trait or relic looks far more like a 60 point model. But that 60 point model does have access to those traits and relics... which absolutely transform them into something well beyond what we expect a 60 point model to look like?
It's an interesting counter point - do you pay more for the potential that a unit has when relics/traits are added, at the cost of the naked unit being less points efficient? Certainly I can't see a relic-less, trait-less Succubus being taken by anyone with any real enthusiasm, except to fill a slot cheaply, even at the current cost.

Probably this starts to get into something that's more at the core of 40K's current mechanics than the unit itself at a certain point.

It's an interesting thought, particularly when compared to the Archon who IMO really needs both Warlord trait and Relic to avoid being embarrassing.

 StrayIight wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not the base cost of the model that is the issue. It is the relics and WL traits. Now - that isn't necessarily an issue for an army to have "really powerful relics" as kind of a signature of the army. Every army should have a signature strength and weakness. I mean....Snipers do exist. My crons bring 10 Deathmarks in almost every list now. I could easily fit 20 by just exchanging them out for 10 points and 10 immortals. It's not like the succubus can't be handled - and raiders are FAR from indestructable.

In a vacuum I agree. A succubus without a Warlord trait or relic looks far more like a 60 point model. But that 60 point model does have access to those traits and relics... which absolutely transform them into something well beyond what we expect a 60 point model to look like?
It's an interesting counter point - do you pay more for the potential that a unit has when relics/traits are added, at the cost of the naked unit being less points efficient? Certainly I can't see a relic-less, trait-less Succubus being taken by anyone with any real enthusiasm, except to fill a slot cheaply, even at the current cost.

Probably this starts to get into something that's more at the core of 40K's current mechanics than the unit itself at a certain point.

Relics vary wildly across armies in terms of power but they all cost exactly the same. This is a fundamental issue.

You could argue that a portion of a characters cost should be incorporating the addition of a relic but that is supposed to be what CP is for. IMO certain relic WL trait interactions are off for DE but at the same time they specifically nerfed certain ones to not interact - like the +1 damage to weapons trait not working on relics. This shows intent to balance but then at the same time we have things like precision blows stacking with relics that give you tons of additional attacks...doing mortal wounds even!

Personally I think it's okay because it has a serious limiting factor that you can only take so many relics. Perhaps a few of the top options (relics) could be tapped down a bit or clarified. I think the points on the model is okay though.

 StrayIight wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not the base cost of the model that is the issue. It is the relics and WL traits. Now - that isn't necessarily an issue for an army to have "really powerful relics" as kind of a signature of the army. Every army should have a signature strength and weakness. I mean....Snipers do exist. My crons bring 10 Deathmarks in almost every list now. I could easily fit 20 by just exchanging them out for 10 points and 10 immortals. It's not like the succubus can't be handled - and raiders are FAR from indestructable.

In a vacuum I agree. A succubus without a Warlord trait or relic looks far more like a 60 point model. But that 60 point model does have access to those traits and relics... which absolutely transform them into something well beyond what we expect a 60 point model to look like?
It's an interesting counter point - do you pay more for the potential that a unit has when relics/traits are added, at the cost of the naked unit being less points efficient? Certainly I can't see a relic-less, trait-less Succubus being taken by anyone with any real enthusiasm, except to fill a slot cheaply, even at the current cost.

Probably this starts to get into something that's more at the core of 40K's current mechanics than the unit itself at a certain point.

Yeah, even if you had two Succubi if you’re CoS you’d probably have flails/venom/competitive edge plus whip/precision blows before you start taking relic/trait less ones

I don’t see a problem with Succubi beyond the Competitive Edge/Razorflail interaction (and I mean everyone here seems to agree that it’s a *bit* OTT). Sure she punches over her points cost but lots of factions have some sort of character that when combined with the right WL trait/relic combo become a bit bonkers. But isn’t that the whole point of WL traits and relics? There’s a trade off there in terms of CP and whether or not there are other traits or relics available that could buff other units but instead solely turn your character into a killing machine.

Some other HQs that seemingly compare that come to mind are:

Frozen Stars Troupe Master w/ Twilight Fang and Darkness’ Bite role

Bloody Rose Cannoness w/ Beneficence and some WL trait I forget

Primaris Chaplain on bike or jump pack w/ either relic crozius or Teeth of Terra plus one of a multitude of WL traits.

The first two are most comparable because of points to killiness to durability, but I still think the Chaplain belongs on the conversation because it’s still really killy, a lot more tanky than the others, AND still provides some serious buffs for other units.

Its funny when DE gets a good 60/75pt HQ everyone is mad, but when Sisters for 1.5+ years has them no one screams this loud.

I also play Sisters, and a 60-70pt Canoness is just as good as most of our Succubi options (Yes there are some better builds). Sure Sisters can't run and charge more than a couple units of turn, but they can force a 9+" charge without trying (normally for other units than a canoness lol). I play Bloody Rose and i have 2 melee Canoness every game, they have done as much work as any of our new Succubi other than Competitive Edge+Razorflail (Im not counting that as it is getting nerf). A basic Blessed Blade Canoness with Inferno pistol is 65pts, Str 5, -3, 3D, that a lone makes our Basic Archon and Succubi not so good. Ours are only better b.c our WL/Relics are slight better but what really makes them better is the Bonus attacks with always run and charge. If a Canoness has 6 base attack it would always be better.


For those that don't know here are the 2 builds (you can change the WL trait with the relic some like the +atks on even more +atks to help kill marines or hordes better) both are 65pts b.c they can have an Inferno pistol.

Canoness are 2+ to hit in melee and shooting, re-roll all 1's (this will change) Str3 with 4 attacks, 3+/4++

Bloody Rose: +1atk if charge, charged, or HI, add an addition AP to pistols and Melee weapons
Sacred Rite: Hits on a 6 generate 1 more hit

Set up 1
WL trait +1 attacks, can run and charge in the same turn
Relic, Blade - +2str, -3ap, 3D
Total of 6(7) str 5 attacks with -4ap for 3D

Set up 2 (this one can get a once per game on a 2+ D3 MW's option)
WL trait - Re-roll charges and if made a charge re-roll all wounds
Relic, Beneficence - +3atks, +1str, -2, 2D (think teeth of terror)
Total 8(9.3) attacks for Str 4, -3ap, 2D

Both has killed full units of marines before, both has done number of damage to vehicles and even killed Rhinos before.

Tl:dr I also play SOB and I have been complaining our/DE characters need to be on the same level, we are now slightly better and everyone is crying we are too good but never said anything about Sisters other than "Repentia are OP, Rets are OP, Mortifiers are OP" when I had Canoness 1/3 the cost of any other unit kill the same amount of stuff as a Repentia unit has.

I don't think anyone here is 'crying' that we are too good. My impression is that we were all just having a discussion about the potency we percieve in a particular character, because while we wait for our FAQ, it's a pertinent discussion.

I think it's good that we can discuss honestly about potential imbalances, especially when we see them in our own armies. I think that's all people have been trying to do really.

40K is a competitive game that generally has a winner and a loser - and at times I think that brings that aspect of us out in discussion around it. But at the same time as a hobby, played for enjoyment, it's also very much a co-operative experience where both players should be seeking to have a good time within a shared game.

I couldn't tell you whether or not a given SoB unit is over or under powered - I've never played as or against them in truth. We're talking about Succubus's, because as Drukhari players on a Drukhari thread, it's a common point of reference and interest for us all.

That said, maybe both units are problematic? More knowledgeable people than me would have to determine that. I'm here to learn, offer my impressions, have my preconceptions challenged, and generally chew the fat mostly.

Hello sneaky internet! I have finished another battle report against the new Dark Eldar. I hope this aids in your discussion of DE tactics!
Read all about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/mwdqe5/tyranids_vs_new_drukhari_2000pt_written_battle/

Please let me know what you think and good luck in your future games.

 StrayIight wrote:
I don't think anyone here is 'crying' that we are too good. My impression is that we were all just having a discussion about the potency we percieve in a particular character, because while we wait for our FAQ, it's a pertinent discussion.

I think it's good that we can discuss honestly about potential imbalances, especially when we see them in our own armies. I think that's all people have been trying to do really.

40K is a competitive game that generally has a winner and a loser - and at times I think that brings that aspect of us out in discussion around it. But at the same time as a hobby, played for enjoyment, it's also very much a co-operative experience where both players should be seeking to have a good time within a shared game.

I couldn't tell you whether or not a given SoB unit is over or under powered - I've never played as or against them in truth. We're talking about Succubus's, because as Drukhari players on a Drukhari thread, it's a common point of reference and interest for us all.

That said, maybe both units are problematic? More knowledgeable people than me would have to determine that. I'm here to learn, offer my impressions, have my preconceptions challenged, and generally chew the fat mostly.

I've been seeing it a lot and I gave the Canoness as a reference point for the Succubus b.c its the same points and about equal in power.

RandomHeretic wrote:
Hello sneaky internet! I have finished another battle report against the new Dark Eldar. I hope this aids in your discussion of DE tactics!
Read all about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/mwdqe5/tyranids_vs_new_drukhari_2000pt_written_battle/

Please let me know what you think and good luck in your future games.

I think DT liquifiers are going to get nerfed in some way.
As an edit - interesting to see the massed units of Cronos. DT also serves to make their flamer equivalent quite respectable - and they are reasonably hard to shift for the points.

I tell you now as an Admech player starting a DE crusade force...I would take a naked succubus over any of my Admech HQ units. In fact, I'd take one at 70-80 pts as well lol.

In the context of this discussion obviously, nobody would CHOOSE to not take WT and relics but I'd wager a succubus without any of those still outperforms most other HQs without theirs, regardless of points cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, this razorflails business could all be avoided if melee weapons had the number of attacks in their profile like AoS instead of on the character profile! That's another dicussion entirely though

Im curious what you think has changed significantly on DT liqiifiers since the change to it - is the fact that they now do not MW themselves on a 1 to wound really change the ball game so much that it makes up for the loss of a second trait? Or is it the boost from S3 to S4 and R8 to R12 on liquifiers do it?

Because this build basically save for the Cronos essentially existed before the new codex.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Im curious what you think has changed significantly on DT liqiifiers since the change to it - is the fact that they now do not MW themselves on a 1 to wound really change the ball game so much that it makes up for the loss of a second trait? Or is it the boost from S3 to S4 and R8 to R12 on liquifiers do it?

Because this build basically save for the Cronos essentially existed before the new codex.

My guess would be that it's all three of these stacked together. The same weapon got a s boost, and s3 vs s4 is a breakpoint against a lot of profiles. That same weapon got a range boost on a shorter board where people move to the middle. That same weapon lost any downsides it had previously as it doesn't do mortal wounds. Put together that is a lot of buffs. Did it get any price boost to go along with all the buffs? Or was the weapon just made much easier to use and more effective across the board for free?

Edit: So the +1 strength basically gave it a free +1 to wound against T3, T4, T6 and T7. Now that is only as powerful as the amount of T3, T4, T6 and T7 in the game. But if those are common toughness profiles, along with the range boost, along with the smaller boards, along with the need to get in close to score primaries, along with losing all downsides....

Double Edit: The change to range 12" also means that they can be used out of deepstrike. A lot of the power of the spam list is the two units of grotesques coming out of the webway. Especially for armies that already struggle to screen once you destroy their frontline, that means you can very dependably hit what you want to anywhere on the board. At only 8" I don't think the grots with liquifiers were such a game changer.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Im curious what you think has changed significantly on DT liqiifiers since the change to it - is the fact that they now do not MW themselves on a 1 to wound really change the ball game so much that it makes up for the loss of a second trait? Or is it the boost from S3 to S4 and R8 to R12 on liquifiers do it?

Because this build basically save for the Cronos essentially existed before the new codex.

S4 versus S3 makes a difference versus T3, T4, T6 and T7. Range 12 versus 8 is also quite a jump.

Points are also a potential issue. Your 5 wracks two liquifiers cost 67 points (I think?) in 8th, rising to 80 in 9th? Now its 60. That's a considerable decrease multiplied over a reasonable number of units.

Grots went from 46 to 55(?) back down to 45.

So for shooting something like Intercessors - and averaging out the random AP - you have a unit which costs 75% of what it did before the January update, doing 33% more damage than it did before the codex came out (and with 4" extra range). So for the points you are doing 77% more damage.