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 JNAProductions wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The wielder certainly is a big deal, but nobody's going to take the weapon if it's lacklustre.

Which is why no one ever takes Lasguns, right?

If you were only allowed one Lascannon, I'd agree-but the fact that you can load up squads with them and slap them all over the place significantly mitigates its downsides.

debatably, people dont take lasguns. They take guardsmen , who have no other weapon option, in order to meat shield the things they actually want.


small difference, but important. no one is taking guardsmen for the lasgun firepower, thats just a bonus to keeping the big guns alive longer.

Is it just me or did Predator Annihilators just become hella good if they get this LC buff? Not to mention Stormlords with quad sponsons.....or any baneblade chassis with quad sponsons.

I sort of wish GW would just get on with it. (Yes, I know we have lengthy threads on that point).

We know they are going to boost all anti-tank weapons to make up for the explicitly daft MM boost. (Also, going to be faintly hysterical if a heavy bolter is 3 S5 AP-1 2 damage... and an autocannon is... 3 S7 AP-1 2 damage. Uh... woops).

Eventually - presumably in 10th - I think they are going to give vehicles/monsters 50% more wounds to compensate.

Basically we should have had indexes.

Here is the thing they have set up a real big disruption of the anti tank weapons. Meltas are good, some would say too good and now all the other anti tank weapons are getting better.

Leaving say the lascannon behind. I don't mind if its more swingy so long as its costed correctly for that feature. Same goes for the Missile launcher which tends to pay too much for the " gift " of being versatile.

Problem is a cost issue, let some be swingy but make them cost effective for spamming all over and cost the more potent AT weapons accordingly. Do so with cost but maybe also with rate of fire or other changes to the promised heavier damage of more reliable AT weapons.

It's just all stat inflation, and it'll lead the same place stat inflation always leads: a hard reset in the next edition because it gets out of hand. In the meantime it produces a nice power creep effect, though, which GW seems rather enamored of.

Did anyone really think tanks were too survivable in 8th (aside from stuff like the IH debacle, which had nothing to do with tanks themselves)? GW's problem has come from piling so many wounds onto infantry and bikers that even "anti-tank" weapons often won't kill them in one damaging hit, requiring a big boost to those weapons to make sure they can actually kill infantry in one damaging hit. In today's game, a D3+3 damage weapon isn't even anti-tank because tanks don't really exist, it's anti-terminator, since it's exactly what you need to kill a 3W terminator with -1D.

A 4 lascannon predator will still be junk because it's still a tank and tanks are, ironically, a terrible platform in 9th for anti-tank weapons. As evidenced by their points. You know something's rotten in the state of denmark when 3 infantry models with anti-tank weapons cost more than a tank mounted with anti-tank weapons.

It is stat bloat but this is what they do, make the system bloat out of control like a great unclean one and then blow it up from orbit and say how they learned their lesson and it'll be all better now.

In the mean time certain armies have over expensive yet inferior AT weapons and others live in the land of plenty as the power creep rolls on.

The only bright side being some people will get crazy strong units that perhaps were only so so in editions past. Like they can't leave Vanquishers to suck for IG which the precedent we've seen so far for AT. Neutron lasers have to hit pretty hard. They've shown that they will mess with weapon stats of say auto cannons so the Exterminator has to be much better if only in rate of fire, etc.

That ends up being a fleeting feeling of good as the game just ends up being set up to strip down in moments of opening fire until the OP bloat crushes the system into dust.

As happy as I am for those happy with their new books the trend makes it seem like it'll be a bitter sweet experience as all we do is trade board wipes and all have some units butchered in regard to their weapon load outs. Which is the worst part to me, power be damned needing to replace and rejig large sections of an army suck and no I never had to do this all the time as is becoming common place with this brave new world of books we live in.

I dodged it for DE as my units didn't have a whole lot of focus to them for wyches. The plague marines hit me in the nards, I'm hoping the skittari doesn't, as well as the scions they could bone me hard on, past that they can't really hurt me but isn't that enough ?

AP super prevalence is bad, right now. That's why they need ++ and then +++ or related systems.

As for admech, I cannot wait to see more HH models in 40k admech. A lot of 40k admech units look like toys to me (e.g. the dakka bots, though they are growing on me, but I cannot stomach the boats). HH units have a darker aesthetic, IMO, with those menacing myrmydons and what not.

PS - 40k admech remind me of the movie "Short Circuit (1986)".

Grey40k wrote:
AP super prevalence is bad, right now. That's why they need ++ and then +++ or related systems.

As for admech, I cannot wait to see more HH models in 40k admech. A lot of 40k admech units look like toys to me (e.g. the dakka bots, though they are growing on me, but I cannot stomach the boats). HH units have a darker aesthetic, IMO, with those menacing myrmydons and what not.

PS - 40k admech remind me of the movie "Short Circuit (1986)".

I like the techno-horror vibe of the 30K Mechanicum so much more than the zany anchronisms of the 40K Mechanicus that I sold my Mechanicus and bought into Legio Cybernetica. I'd probably spend more if they had 40K rules as well. It's almost like GW doesn't want to sell their incredibly expensive resin sculpts.

 catbarf wrote:

I like the techno-horror vibe of the 30K Mechanicum so much more than the zany anchronisms of the 40K Mechanicus that I sold my Mechanicus and bought into Legio Cybernetica. I'd probably spend more if they had 40K rules as well. It's almost like GW doesn't want to sell their incredibly expensive resin sculpts.

I suspect that economies of scale are worse for FW. They never want to push them too hard, and we know GW is all about the profit.

In any case, dark mechanicum is an amazing flavor army, and I do love the range in general.

Grey40k wrote:
As for admech, I cannot wait to see more HH models in 40k admech.

I think you'll be waiting a long time...

I'm sure when Fires of Cyraxus is released... Ooooh

Does anyone want to spare a thought to all the poor knight players right now? As if double shooting meltas weren't bad now we have twin lascannons on fast attack units that can d6+6 damage (If each one is D3+3) and pop knight brackets like it's not even funny. Even my Ares is like, COMMON MAN!

 Cybtroll wrote:
9th seems hell-bent on increasing the lethality even more than 8th and faster... I'mm baffled

they upped defenses extremely significantly in the SM, Necron, and DG codexes, so anti-elite weaponry is trending towards being more powerful.

The only instance IMO that lethality is actually increasing and i agree it's a bad thing is anti-vehicle weaponry, which seems to be going 100% coocoo bananas with many random characters and crap able to just instantly demolish a whole tank in one swing, and antitank units being able to do absurd overkill like 18 damage on average to T7 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does anyone want to spare a thought to all the poor knight players right now? As if double shooting meltas weren't bad now we have twin lascannons on fast attack units that can d6+6 damage (If each one is D3+3) and pop knight brackets like it's not even funny. Even my Ares is like, COMMON MAN!

No, nobody wants to spare a thought to knight players. I honestly can't think of another instance where it was so widespread and common for a full faction in the game to have people just go 'nope, not playing against that army.

I don't know if it's even warranted. I've never actually seen someone playing a knight army as their like, main thing that they play.

These box instructions have been notoriously wrong on lots of things. I wouldn't get too excited yet.

 Xenomancers wrote:
These box instructions have been notoriously wrong on lots of things. I wouldn't get too excited yet.

*blink*

*blink*

...

..nah.

 Xenomancers wrote:
These box instructions have been notoriously wrong on lots of things. I wouldn't get too excited yet.

Well which ones have been flat out wrong? I know they won't have any special rules listed, but I'm unsure of them being just straight up wrong.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does anyone want to spare a thought to all the poor knight players right now? As if double shooting meltas weren't bad now we have twin lascannons on fast attack units that can d6+6 damage (If each one is D3+3) and pop knight brackets like it's not even funny. Even my Ares is like, COMMON MAN!

Knights are the most interesting book to watch. That's the make or break moment. Either they go overboard and we enter Castellan-mania again or they're kind of crap on their own. Getting knights juuuust right will be incredibly hard to pull off.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Knights are the most interesting book to watch. That's the make or break moment. Either they go overboard and we enter Castellan-mania again or they're kind of crap on their own. Getting knights juuuust right will be incredibly hard to pull off.

I'm looking forward to the not-quite-a-Paladin-but-bigger-than-an-Armiger release that will be the Knight Lieutenant!

Knights never work in 40k, they break too many rules of a game system that isn't designed for them. They'll always be either oppressive or junk, and for the sake of the game it's better when they err on the side of junk.

This tends to be true of all large models, but it's especially true when a faction takes *only* large models. Large models don't work right within 40k's rules, it exaggerates all the basic problems with the system.

I expect the knights codex will have a rule that reduces damage to knights (aside from armigers) by 1/2. It's the only real way to combat the ridiculous inflation of damage we've seen since the start of 9th. It's also stupid, but that's the hole they've dug for themselves.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Knights never work in 40k, they break too many rules of a game system that isn't designed for them. They'll always be either oppressive or junk, and for the sake of the game it's better when they err on the side of junk.

This tends to be true of all large models, but it's especially true when a faction takes *only* large models. Large models don't work right within 40k's rules, it exaggerates all the basic problems with the system.

No arguing with this. Fantastic models, but to me super-heavies really have no place in a 1.5k (or even 2k game). Been sayin' it since they intergrated superheavies into regular games back in 6th. I often seem in a minority here, so always nice to see someone else of the same opinion.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I expect the knights codex will have a rule that reduces damage to knights (aside from armigers) by 1/2. It's the only real way to combat the ridiculous inflation of damage we've seen since the start of 9th. It's also stupid, but that's the hole they've dug for themselves.

If they do then it'll almost as if we'll be back in 8th... You'll be forced to take enough AT to take out a knight (or 3) and which point anything that is vaguely vehicle/ monster like but isn't a knight evaporates from the board rather quickly.

If Cognis Lascannons do go upto D3+3 in the code that is a huge jump in lethality. The major worry for the overall meta (whether casual or comp) is various codexes simply being left behind this huge shift in AT, especially if points remain relatively unchanged.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Knights never work in 40k, they break too many rules of a game system that isn't designed for them. They'll always be either oppressive or junk, and for the sake of the game it's better when they err on the side of junk.

This tends to be true of all large models, but it's especially true when a faction takes *only* large models. Large models don't work right within 40k's rules, it exaggerates all the basic problems with the system.

I expect the knights codex will have a rule that reduces damage to knights (aside from armigers) by 1/2. It's the only real way to combat the ridiculous inflation of damage we've seen since the start of 9th. It's also stupid, but that's the hole they've dug for themselves.

I am given a little bit of hope by how they seem to drive a connection with Knights & Admech in Charadon, but that's a specific fluff angle. No telling how the rest of the houses will fair or how a mono knight army will benefit.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Knights never work in 40k, they break too many rules of a game system that isn't designed for them. They'll always be either oppressive or junk, and for the sake of the game it's better when they err on the side of junk.

This tends to be true of all large models, but it's especially true when a faction takes *only* large models. Large models don't work right within 40k's rules, it exaggerates all the basic problems with the system.

I expect the knights codex will have a rule that reduces damage to knights (aside from armigers) by 1/2. It's the only real way to combat the ridiculous inflation of damage we've seen since the start of 9th. It's also stupid, but that's the hole they've dug for themselves.

The main problem with knights is that they're fundamentally just 1000% terrible at winning the game, but most players just don't fundamentally view winning the game as winning the game. They view destroying the opponent's army as winning the game, and 'winning the mission' as kind of a technically thing, or a thing you try to pull of if you can't destroy the opposing army.

Nobody gets madder at a thing in 40k than when their cool thing they think should kill a thing doesn't kill a thing. Whether that's "I can't get my combat thing into combat with you shooty thing" or "your big thing is too big to shoot with my little guns!" or "your tough thing didnt die" the only exception to the rule is special characters, who people rage out if they ever ever ever ever ever ever ever die.

I'll be EXTREMELY surprised if GW gives up on their biggest cash cow of 8th. There is too much money on the table in the three model list faction. It's just too against their values (Money) to not make them broken as all hell again, and removed - Rule #1 please (Ahem, customers) will run out and buy the new Cawl pattern Castellan with void shields, and quad lascannon eviserators that do 8 shots of S10 ap4 d6+3 damage and fist/leg mounted Cawl pattern Heavy Assault cannons that are 20 shots of s5 ap 2 d3 damage. We'll see them till the CA nerfs them to Stompa level points cost, and then these forums will generate another 6-10 threads about how unfair the world is. Meanwhile, Eldar will get a new plastic......Nearsear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
These box instructions have been notoriously wrong on lots of things. I wouldn't get too excited yet.

Well which ones have been flat out wrong? I know they won't have any special rules listed, but I'm unsure of them being just straight up wrong.

Off the top of my head - Thunder Hammers for VV were listed at 4 damage. To be fair a lot of the early errors were on early on space marines stuff. The first boxes to come out in new boxing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
These box instructions have been notoriously wrong on lots of things. I wouldn't get too excited yet.

Well which ones have been flat out wrong? I know they won't have any special rules listed, but I'm unsure of them being just straight up wrong.

Off the top of my head - Thunder Hammers for VV were listed at 4 damage. To be fair a lot of the early errors were on early on space marines stuff. The first boxes to come out in new boxing.

Yeah, and SM veterans were listd as having 30" range bolters, but the thunder hammer thing was definitely a big source of Consternation...then after all that TH's got nerfed.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
...they can't leave Vanquishers to suck for IG...

Just watch them

Knights aren't actually all that much of a money maker, a Knight army is cheaper than most other armies even if each individual model is pricey.

Each knight is about 200 bucks if you want all the options, magnets, and paint. Thats 600 for all three. Another 50 for amigers or adMech, then all the books, thats easily another 250. You are looking at close to 1k for a 2k list. That's not say, Guard cost, but it's not Custodes either. They were a money maker when they were kings of the edition. You can easily make them kings again, and watch the money roll in.

 waefre_1 wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
...they can't leave Vanquishers to suck for IG...

Just watch them

Was gonna say... Vanquishers are the epitome of suck.
I can't think of a time when they didn't suck, except, possibly, when they didn't exist. That was the pinnacle of the vanquisher experience.

Single shot direct fire (no template) anti-armor weapon on the BS3 faction was a sorry launching point.

Voss wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
...they can't leave Vanquishers to suck for IG...

Just watch them

Was gonna say... Vanquishers are the epitome of suck.
I can't think of a time when they didn't suck, except, possibly, when they didn't exist. That was the pinnacle of the vanquisher experience.

Single shot direct fire (no template) anti-armor weapon on the BS3 faction was a sorry launching point.

I mean they boosted Hellions this edition. Who knows at this point.