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I've no issue with these books other than they should be a lot cheaper (even if that means making them paperback and black and white inside).

XD I like how they use monthly prize giveaways to make people playtest their listbuilding app. Honestly I feel like if they tried to add too many bells and whistles... Probably should have just hired battle scribe or bought it out to do their list building XD it was also a pain in the butt to use, all other glitches and inaccuracies aside...

But yeah BS is probably the most trustworthy thing you are getting besides PDF rips of the source material or the source material itself.

Karol wrote:

a_typical_hero 798109 11115808 wrote:
If you are playing in an environment where other players are so likely to cheat on you that you can't trust them if they just bring a BS list, you got a whole different problem than a 60$ expansion book.

And ? It is better to expect people to cheat and check for stuff, then read some horror stories about dudes in germany or US cheating in event after event cross multiple games for years.

And this is before any cultural differences kick in, because you maybe will be suprised, but majority of the world only thinks that cheating is bad in two situations . First when someone else does it, and second if you get caught. Any design paradigma based around people have to be nice, friendly and "talk stuff over" is just stupid. Because all it does is to give people with higher standing at the store to force even more stuff on other players, because the rules aren't clear. If the rules are clear, then even if they are the store owner, the rules are writen the same for everyone.

Karol, the only horror story here is the toxic environment in which you have to play this game. Come to Germany if you get the chance and we can play some friendly Warhammer for a change.

 Dysartes wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.

Yes it does come with a code.

.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book

 harlokin wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.

Yes it does come with a code.

.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book

Right so if I want to have the list in the app I have to buy the book anyway so what is the point of paying the subscription. I thought the subscription provided all rules as they came out. Is it really just the army builder that as far as I can tell is still broken?

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.

Yes it does come with a code.

.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book

Right so if I want to have the list in the app I have to buy the book anyway so what is the point of paying the subscription. I thought the subscription provided all rules as they came out. Is it really just the army builder that as far as I can tell is still broken?

/shrug.....I don't use the GW app, can't help you there

mrFickle wrote:
I thought the subscription provided all rules as they came out.

You thought wrong. In fact, GW explicitly stated the opposite: That you got all pre-9th stuff with a sub and going forward you'd lose access to things as Codexes were released with the codes you required to get access, sub or not. Once all 9th stuff is out, the Sub is only for access to the army builder.

That's right. GW's app is a program that actually loses content as time goes on.

Bargain!

Seabass wrote:
I'm confused about a few things.

I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)

I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.

because it's optional for me to buy, but not optional to play against, and frequently these campaign books have the least tested, most broken, dumbest gak in them. Let's look over their 'storied history' in 8th:

We've got:

Vigilus - the joy of triple-fighting Aberrants that got my GSC army nerfed to their current 35% win percentage! yaaaaaaaaay my favorite! Oh also, remember how fun those all-discolord chaos lists were that used the specialist detachment from this book?

PA - oh so many hits, broken Harlequins, broken Custodes, the stupid Drukhari custom traits that are about to get my Covens nerfed to high heaven, exploding ork planes that deal 3mw to a huge chunk of your army and you can do nothing about it, tyranid mutation thignies that they can freely apply to their FW superheavies to give them like 5++ invulns and regeneration on all their 40 wounds for 1cp, exalted demon traits, all the best and smartest and most fun rules of 8th!

New book - Well we're off to a fantastic start with the 40 attack succubus combo that's about to get ANOTHER one of my drukhari subfactions nerfed into the dumpster, amazing start.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Seabass wrote:
I'm confused about a few things.

I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)

I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.

because it's optional for me to buy, but not optional to play against, and frequently these campaign books have the least tested, most broken, dumbest gak in them. Let's look over their 'storied history' in 8th:

We've got:

Vigilus - the joy of triple-fighting Aberrants that got my GSC army nerfed to their current 35% win percentage! yaaaaaaaaay my favorite! Oh also, remember how fun those all-discolord chaos lists were that used the specialist detachment from this book?

PA - oh so many hits, broken Harlequins, broken Custodes, the stupid Drukhari custom traits that are about to get my Covens nerfed to high heaven, exploding ork planes that deal 3mw to a huge chunk of your army and you can do nothing about it, tyranid mutation thignies that they can freely apply to their FW superheavies to give them like 5++ invulns and regeneration on all their 40 wounds for 1cp, exalted demon traits, all the best and smartest and most fun rules of 8th!

New book - Well we're off to a fantastic start with the 40 attack succubus combo that's about to get ANOTHER one of my drukhari subfactions nerfed into the dumpster, amazing start.

What is interesting is your example about exploding Oak planes. We normally talk about buying these books to get extra better rules for your army. But what if you opted not to do this but your opponent brought these rules to the table and said that these are the latest rules so if your plan blows up its tough.

before anyone states that its up to you to agree with your opponent what rules are being used, well it all becomes subjective and frankly tactical. If your army hasn't had their rule updates should you let your opponent use their rule updates and if you refuse to use certain rules, like work planes blowing up well you need to scale all rules back to certain period of rules. Its ridiculous that as a CSM player I should feel compelled to tell a SM player that I won't let them use their latest codex until CSM have had their 9th edition codex release.

currently I'm not playing 40k (just collecting an painting) for many of these reasons, I can't be bothered with the expenditure and effort of chasing rules like an addict chasing a fix. when the game gets to a settled status then I may seek people to play with but is that ever going to happen. Or will I be able to play the army of my choosing without having to spend a small fortunate on books. If I have understood the Disciples of Belakor description nearly 100 pounds of books are required before any models are purchased. No wonder so many people play same marines, its so much more accessible, especially the way the new codex is written. 1 book and you can make up your own army with custom HQ units. Supreme commander Felix of the Space Kittens!

Hope the book crashes and burns, frankly.

I won't be buying into the additional content this edition. I have the Vigilus books and many of the PA books, I can still use their content (the missions, not the rules) to my heart's content. I also won't be buying as many codexes this time around. The shelf life doesn't justify the expenditure.
I also have the app but getting very annoyed with the lack of updates. How long has the Deathwatch codex been out? The app still doesn't have the option of adding an Indomitor kill team, wtf? Not to mention points being wrong. I'll give it a month or two more, but if nothing changes, time to drop it.

 harlokin wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.

You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.

Yes it does come with a code.

.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book

Thanks for the confirmation.

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.

I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)

By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?

 addnid wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.

I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)

By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?

Didn’t realise that Americans used the term quid but on behalf of the brits feel free to use it as slang for your local currency.

For all you bitching about buying the rules for a model/force you want to run?

1) if you want it bad enough (but not bad enough to buy it), you'll get your hands on the rules somehow. Quit acting like you wont.

2) just wait. Yes, the classic Dakka answer to things.
GW might include Belakor in Codex Demons or Codex CSM later.
You'll just have to gamble & find out.

 bullyboy wrote:
I won't be buying into the additional content this edition. I have the Vigilus books and many of the PA books, I can still use their content (the missions, not the rules) to my heart's content. I also won't be buying as many codexes this time around. The shelf life doesn't justify the expenditure.
I also have the app but getting very annoyed with the lack of updates. How long has the Deathwatch codex been out? The app still doesn't have the option of adding an Indomitor kill team, wtf? Not to mention points being wrong. I'll give it a month or two more, but if nothing changes, time to drop it.

Yeah, as someone who owns many armies, the expenditure on books frankly just is never worth it. GW has long since crossed the threshold with their books where the number of games I actually get to play with them before they go out of date is on the order of like, 4-5. Would I put 10 bucks into a slot under the table any time I wanted to play a game of 40k, independent of the cost of models? feth no. and is the added enjoyment of the rules being totally different every time I put my models down worth the cost?


Removed - BrookM

 addnid wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.

I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years) yukishiro1 ?

Maybe they they have a moral/religious objection to theft? That's how I'm interpreting 'rules for free online' at least.

Though honestly I wish they'd just release epubs again. I hate having these physical books cluttering around my house.

Audustum wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.

I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years) yukishiro1 ?

Maybe they they have a moral/religious objection to theft? That's how I'm interpreting 'rules for free online' at least.

Though honestly I wish they'd just release epubs again. I hate having these physical books cluttering around my house.

Is it theft ? I spend like 400-800 euros per year on GW plastic crac (I am not even counting second hand purchases here, which are a lot more than that), should I really be paying for rules too ? OK by some moral standards I guess I should...
But honestly I feel fine not paying. Guess I am a godless, "no morals" barbarian. I am the type of idiot who makes GW prosper. They don't need me buying their 6 month lifespan books. I am enough of a sucker as is, I don't need to be more than that.

ccs wrote:
For all you bitching about buying the rules for a model/force you want to run?

1) if you want it bad enough (but not bad enough to buy it), you'll get your hands on the rules somehow. Quit acting like you wont.

2) just wait. Yes, the classic Dakka answer to things.
GW might include Belakor in Codex Demons or Codex CSM later.
You'll just have to gamble & find out.

1) that’s an unfair assumption and not true for me. I’d feel bad posting a thread saying I know you paid 35 quid for the book but can you give me the bit I want for free

2) yeah it might, but it might not and that’s what they want you to think cos then you don’t know what you should or shouldn’t buy. I paid 20 quid for the war of the spider to get a a page of rules and one characters stats and the rest of the book was full of armies I’m not interested in. And if those rules are in the new CSM codex then what will the time frame be between those being released? 18-24 months?

Copyright infringement isn't theft; if it was, we wouldn't need a term for copyright infringement, it would just be, well, theft. The fact that we have a different word and a different set of laws for it is incontrovertible evidence that it is not, in fact, theft. That doesn't mean it's ok, but it does mean calling it theft is inaccurate as a matter of law and as a matter of logic.

Theft requires depriving the owner of their property, not just getting access to the property yourself. If you could snap your fingers and make a copy of someone's car, it wouldn't be theft to then drive off in your new copied car.

mrFickle wrote:

ccs wrote:
For all you bitching about buying the rules for a model/force you want to run?

1) if you want it bad enough (but not bad enough to buy it), you'll get your hands on the rules somehow. Quit acting like you wont.

2) just wait. Yes, the classic Dakka answer to things.
GW might include Belakor in Codex Demons or Codex CSM later.
You'll just have to gamble & find out.

1) that’s an unfair assumption and not true for me. I’d feel bad posting a thread saying I know you paid 35 quid for the book but can you give me the bit I want for free

*What, you don't use Battlescribe?
*You don't watch any youtube games/reviews? Someone there will tell you all about it. Take notes.
*You've never borrowed a friends book or leafed through someones book at the shop (generally requires you to be at least a friendly aquaintence) while watching a game/BSing etc? "hey Bob, can I see your ___ book?
*You don't pay attention in these discussions?
*Hell, BUY the book, copy the pages you need, decide how much those pages are worth to you, & sell the book to the next guy at a reduced cost that reflects how much you'd have paid just for those pages.

mrFickle wrote:
2) yeah it might, but it might not and that’s what they want you to think cos then you don’t know what you should or shouldn’t buy. I paid 20 quid for the war of the spider to get a a page of rules and one characters stats and the rest of the book was full of armies I’m not interested in. And if those rules are in the new CSM codex then what will the time frame be between those being released? 18-24 months?

Like i said, it's a gamble.

I normally try to stay positive, and not post complaints to much, but putting out a campaign book for two armies without doing the codex first is BS. Also, the fact that they are even doing the campaign books before updating all the codex is BS. How many campaign books have the put out since 9th started, like 3? That could have been 3 more codex. Frankly I don't even care about getting new miniatures at this rate, I just want my CSM/TS to be on par with imperial marines or at least know when that might actually happen.

Also, the book will most likely require Bel' to be in the army to use the mix daemon/csm rules, which is fine it is his little army section, but having an option for generic commanders (who still worship him) and being allowed to use daemon/csm together would be nice.

What if campaign books just had rules like alternate victory conditions or missions that apply to both players, terrain rules, scenarios, deployments, and other rules that add flavor without significantly benefitting one faction, or player that chooses to use the rules... even if the rules occasionally favor one build or type of army at least both sides benefit. Maybe even some hazards... but not formations or “armies of renown” and extra relics and stratagems for two armies... or technically 3...

I feel bad for the community, I've always been relatively detached, sort of just painting and collecting and rarely playing. Trying to change that hence why I picked up the 8th and 9th ed death guard codex (mostly because I was anxious for the new one).

That being said, I don't really see the need to buy a bunch of books, especially if I will most likely need to consult more avid players about the rules anyway. I can read the rules and buy all the books but ultimately until I play competitively I will probably be unsure of how certain things are done.

And that's ok, this is a game that is supposed to be fun not a college exam.

I think this will inevitably push more people into the 3d printing realm which isn't that big of a deal for GW, but still, not a good sign.

The way I see it, I'll keep abreast of the rules as best I can, but I'm not shelling out hundreds of bucks for them, especially since GW will just come out with another one in a year (if I'm lucky).

As a community, we need to just stick together, make it easier for eachother to read and understand the rules so that we can play the game we love together rather than bicker over wether or not GW is in the right.

Irrelevant, we want to play the game and have fun doing it. Let's come together and make it happen without GW, they'll never help facilitate such joy so we'll have to take it for ourselves.

macluvin wrote:
What if campaign books just had rules like alternate victory conditions or missions that apply to both players, terrain rules, scenarios, deployments, and other rules that add flavor without significantly benefitting one faction, or player that chooses to use the rules... even if the rules occasionally favor one build or type of army at least both sides benefit. Maybe even some hazards... but not formations or “armies of renown” and extra relics and stratagems for two armies... or technically 3...

Yes, that is exactly what a "campaign book" should be. Can you please explain this to gw?

Those don't sell. That's why they're sticking a bunch of other things into them too, to try to get more people to buy it, and to try to justify the absurd price tag. Tons of competitive players bought book of rust for the overpowered DE rules, that's a GW executive somewhere justifying their bonus this year.

 addnid wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.

I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)

By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?

I think britts and yanks both understand that "quid" and "buck" have basically the same meaning - it's makes us feel we are speaking to each other in a more personal way.

I don't know how they can do "campaing" books as good as the MESBG ones and even the AoS Broken Realms books are reasonable, and then produce such crap for 40K both in the form of PA and now this.

The biggest question. CSM are going to get some rules in this book to work with belokor. Will this also include 2 wound CSM? Because if it does. This book is going to sell to some desperate CSM players and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

It's just so damn shady for GW. Even by their standards.