Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I just wish GW would maintain and support properly their skirmish options. They have kinda squeezed the life out of Kill Team by locking Primaris and Necron datasheets in a box, and Warcry went the way of the dodo with the new army books that divided all the warcry cards between the 4 books along with a separate Tome of Champions.

GW has no interest in supporting a skirmish level game, which is a shame. Even those who championed these systems locally have given up on the systems.

Warcry seems to be the better favoured of the two, with better support including models. It has been a little quiet lately, to be honest.

I still enjoy Kill Team but not beyond the core manual and using Blackstone Fortress for confined area games. GW said there was an "evolution" on the way, so hopefully we'll be moving onto a better supported edition sooner rather than later...

God I hope so. As much as I love my large table games I find the smaller skirmish games perfect for starting newer armies incrementally. Only reason I have 6000 points painted of Death Guard is because I started playing Death Guard a lot early on in KT and would only play with painted.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.

This could make a difference, if it’s true:




Seems sus to me though.

 puma713 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.

This could make a difference, if it’s true:




Seems sus to me though.

It's unfortunately super easy to fake something like that. People have demonstrated that fact on here multiple times.

It's possible but require corroboration.

Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.

... So 0% that pic is real.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.

... So 0% that pic is real.

These books are soft cover and don't typically have as much lead time to print.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.

... So 0% that pic is real.

These books are soft cover and don't typically have as much lead time to print.

Soft cover, saddle bound, and good heavy stock so that the presses can both start up and run well. Hmmmm. Anybody have an estimate on the print run on these? I'll give you an estimate on how quickly a plant can have them out the door once the files are received.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.

... So 0% that pic is real.

They didn't listen playtesters for points at all for 9e. Doubtful that has changed for these.

No commentary on how the new missions work or were designed to give a nerf to elite armies?

macluvin wrote:
No commentary on how the new missions work or were designed to give a nerf to elite armies?

Well, "No Prisoners" replacing "Thin the Ranks" now counts wounds of anything not Monster, Character or Vehicle now.

I.e. for example Necron armies build around Scarabs and Wraiths or Marine armies using lots of Vanguards, Attack Bikes, etc.. should give it up more easily. Armies combining vehicles and 1 wound models like Guard or Drukhari now aren't as vulnerable to it. '

Etc..

Secondaries were the thing that was getting most of the complaints between the balance of core ones being terrible and some of the bespoke ones being stupid auto-takes, improving the balance there will make a big difference even if nothing else changes.

Assuming that GW does actually improve the balance and not over-correct again.

Considering how they often get points wrong, I'm really hoping the points values are available online at some point like the last manual.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.

Unbiased testers? What sort of bigfoot unicorn are those?

I would love it if re imagined secondaries helped some armies in dire straits. Astra Militarum, for instance, is just on the backfoot merely by showing up at a table right now.

Something definitely needs to be done to help the bottom/middle tier armies out right now


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.

Unbiased testers? What sort of bigfoot unicorn are those?

That's the joke. ;-)

When you have hardcore players of Army X asked to test their rules, surely you get measured responses...

Well since points were what playtesters couldn't affect even with comments not much beside proof reading they could do. Points were locked in.

5 of the Biggest Points Drops

Additionally:

On the topic of surprises, we already know that the Orks and Adepta Sororitas codexes are on their way, but what about the next two?

Well, we’ve got a confession to make – the points values featured in the Munitorum Field Manual MkII for the Thousand Sons and Grey Knights are actually incorrect. That’s because their codexes were intended to be out at this point, complete with their fancy new rules and updated points values. Sadly, due to the fickle winds of fate (for which we can only presume Tzeentch is to blame), the release of these books has been delayed until a little later in the year.

helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.

15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.

pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.

I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?

 the_scotsman wrote:
helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.

15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.

Is there anything current that really needs to be desperately FAQ'd? Genuinely curious, not a 1k sons player in sight for me.

Obviously the points in the new book has both of these factions at 2W marines, hence why they released the errata to use points at 1W until codexes are released. As they said, the codexes should have been released by now and so the points in the manual would reflect those rules, not what's in their current codexes.

 the_scotsman wrote:
helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.

15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.

Their Land Raider is down by 20.

For GK the Land Raider and the Stormraven are both down by 20.

With Heavy Bolters, Lascannons and Multi-Meltas being unchanged for GK and TS, it's pretty safe to assume there won't be a general weapon rebalancing this round.

 the_scotsman wrote:
helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.

15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.

TBF, I think this is pre-empting the fact that MFM 2 will outdate the old PDF... but uh, technically by the fact that we use release date of publication to see if it's most current or not... by pre-empting the problem they have just caused the exact same thing? Obviously nobody but Karol is going to be affected by that. Very sad that his club is going to make him use the most recent points at knifepoint.

I'm just hoping this includes some of the weird point stuff orks got in white dwarfs. there was stuff like free kombi weapons on nobz (only price to make em takeable) and 10 point rokkit racks on deffkoptas.

So they did indeed get some points wrong. Nice that they've stuck the corrections in an online pdf for the time being, but I'm pretty worried that the correct points values aren't going to be available online.

I'm really not keen on paying money for each balance patch, has there been any indication they're going to put up the points values after the books are out?

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
So they did indeed get some points wrong. Nice that they've stuck the corrections in an online pdf for the time being, but I'm pretty worried that the correct points values aren't going to be available online.

I'm really not keen on paying money for each balance patch, has there been any indication they're going to put up the points values after the books are out?

We don't know whether they got points wrong or not.


For now, what they said is they got the points correct for Grey Knights / Thousand Sons for their Codex rules, but the Codexes are (as we know) all delayed a few months, so they published intermediary points. Barring mistakes/changes, the printed MFM points for Grey Knights and Thousand Sons will be the correct points once those Codex books hit the shelves.

The points that they got wrong are that the points in the book are for the latest iteration of the Thousand Sons and Grey Knights codexes, which will not be released before the book.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Is there anything current that really needs to be desperately FAQ'd? Genuinely curious, not a 1k sons player in sight for me.

I've seen some tournaments (and the WTC, for what it's worth), not allow the 2++ on Rubric Blobs and cap it at a 3++.

Quasistellar wrote:
pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.

I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?

Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
So they did indeed get some points wrong. Nice that they've stuck the corrections in an online pdf for the time being, but I'm pretty worried that the correct points values aren't going to be available online.

I'm really not keen on paying money for each balance patch, has there been any indication they're going to put up the points values after the books are out?

We don't know whether they got points wrong or not.


For now, what they said is they got the points correct for Grey Knights / Thousand Sons for their Codex rules, but the Codexes are (as we know) all delayed a few months, so they published intermediary points. Barring mistakes/changes, the printed MFM points for Grey Knights and Thousand Sons will be the correct points once those Codex books hit the shelves.

I've re-read my post and it wasn't clear at all what I was blabbering about. Sorry about that, I'll clarify.

The Thousand Sons and Grey Knights points values in the book may not technically be wrong, but they are pretty useless without the updated codices (which presumably will contain the same points values anyway). They are essentially selling a product with pages in it that are not of use to the player. I understand GW have had some issues lately which explains why, and it is indeed good that they've put up a PDF containing what the current points values for Thousand Sons and Grey Knights should be.

What I am concerned about is everything else in the points book. Even assuming they have everything correct (they've made plenty of mistakes in the past) I don't like the idea of being sold points values. It's great that GW are making changes to points when they spot what is perceived as an imbalance, but I feel this kind of thing should be free. You don't see game developers making people pay every time they release a patch.

They have put points online in the past, I just haven't seen any indication that they will do the same thing for this manual, and it worries me that they might start thinking they can get away with charging for this kind of update.

They've been getting away with selling people balance patches for five years. I don't think they're only going to get that idea now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.

I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?

Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.

Your post will not age well.

Age of Sigmar June/July. Sisters end of July, Orks end of August/Early Sep. GK and Tsons both out before November ends.

Anyway, please don’t spend money on this ’balance patch’. The repointing is so far detached from real needs its unreal. Dozens of units need a 30% or higher pts cut, but GW gives 9% to some of the trashiest trash there is, and mostly leaves stuff as is.

No conspiracy. Just complacency.