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boys with +1 toughness would only follow the current meta where everyone does more damage and where its common to kill 60 boys in one turn.

The codex tries to prevent that from being a common currency. So no, Orks shouldnt cost more by getting a +1 Toughness.

Orks dies too fast already. they should be more duable.

I was pretty sure before, but now I'm almost positive they'll be 8 points after having seen kabalite warriors and skitarii.

Beardedragon wrote:
boys with +1 toughness would only follow the current meta where everyone does more damage and where its common to kill 60 boys in one turn.

The codex tries to prevent that from being a common currency. So no, Orks shouldnt cost more by getting a +1 Toughness.

Orks dies too fast already. they should be more duable.

If that was true, and orks were losing 60 models per turn on avarge. Then they wouldn't have the win rates they have now, and instead would be sitting around with tau. gsc and similar armies in the bad armies bracket.

It is a core unit, and the upgrade is army wide, as are other. And they are made to an army that was succesful in 9th already. It sure as hell was not weak pre codex. And all knowladge from prior editions shows, that buffing low cost units is always a bigger buff, then the same kind of a buff existing for elite armies. +5inv on termintors is laughable , a +5inv on 20 boys is not.

on average against decently shooty armies i can easily lose 40-50 models.

The only way boys were successful as how they're meant to be used, in groups of 30, was with Ghaz in a goff army. Where they're buffed to the max with str 5.


Few uses blobs of 30 in a non goff army because its simply better to run them in groups of 10, thus losing out on most stratagems that makes sense to use on them as well as their own buffs that only kicks in when they are 20+ models.


Saying that orks do decently in tournements doesnt mean boys as whole are great units. Im not saying they're terrible because they are not, they are good when they get to do their thing, they're just only really useful in close combat, by which many will be dead when they get there. Having no boys by turn 3, is a common thing, and close to 70% tends to be dead by turn 2 depending on the armies you face. Most winning ork armies, except for goff orks, dont use 30 man blobs. The most picked number is 10, and thus they leave out on most stratagems (Green tide/Get stuck in Ladz) as well as their own ability (+1 CC attack, once again, a CC related ability), because their own ability does not trigger at 10 models, and the two other stratagems would be slowed to use on a 10 man squad.


Boys are good in 30 man squads, IF you run Goff and uses Ghaz. Otherwise you're better off not doing it. Its fun to use 90 shoota boys with bad moon, but hardly competitive. The range is only 18, and if you run standard boys on 32 mm bases, most your models wont reach the enemy, and if they do, you're most likely so close to the enemy that you could charge anyway. Boys tends to advance most places as well so you would be hitting on 6s, because why would you use More dakka on a group of boys when you have other units to put that stratagem on?

Shootas will give you a very small yield in terms of damage, generally speaking, so if you want to maximize the output of boys, its close combat. That which many of them will be dead before they get to the frontline.

Furthermore, for the entire army, its a general thing that orks dont run invul saves on units and vehicles, unless they are near the KFF. Having 90 boys you can bet your ass you will only find 60 of them inside the KFF and if thats happening he isnt spreading out at all. at least 30 boys will at the beginning be outside of the KFF, and when Turn 1 is over and you go to turn 2, odds are, only 1 unit of 30 is inside the KFF.

So yes, Orks have a KFF that gives invul saves to shooting, but it wont last at all. And what happens to many space marines in turn 2? tactical doctrine. -1 AP weapons and boys will die in troves.

While its completely normal that factions have a higher winning chance by getting turn 1, orks winning chances often plummets rather much due to lack of defensive capabilities. We also dont really have that high RAW alpha damage that many other factions do.


Also, orks arent winning hard against the new codexes that are being released. Adeptus mechanicus and drukhari all *Beep* orks back to the fungus state. And Death Guard is pretty damn difficult too. With all the new ways of dealing obscene amount of damage, its nice to see that GW at least acknowledges that Orks are going to have a hard time going forward. Because that seems to be a meta thing for GW, lots of damage. Aka, codex creep. Since the codexes arent released at the same time, the changes being made to orks now might sound stupid. But they might make sense in the full picture where others receive lots more damage or ways to destroy the orks. That they're doing well now, wont necessarily be so, in 1 year from now.

There are literal armies that win based on whether they get turn 1. My thousand sons friend, who barely uses thousand sons models, teleports 10 terminators in (having been hiding terrain), shoots off 80 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s with str 4 weapons, +1 to wound from what ever causes it, so its a +3 on wounds. How many boys do you think i have left after that salvo? The KFF saves some sure and a painboy might as well. But i need to be in a complete defensive circle in order to do this, and even then, i still lose 45 or so boys. And that was only his turn 1 shooting and his terminators. he still has magnus left, 3 defilers and 20 rubric marines left and 2 daemon princes + a hellbrute.

To be fair ive won all our matches, but thats only because he messes up how many shots he needs to dedicate to where, and the rest of his armys placement. Once he gets that right, if he has turn 1, im dead. And he aint the only faction that can do that. Because im paying 250 for 29 boys + a nob with a powerklaw. max that to 3x and thats 750 points for something that only has a movement of 5 right now, Toughness 4 and can only really hit something in close combat. The moment you are a horde faction, even going +1 point starts making a massive difference. It'll be the difference between 250 points for a normal 30 man blob, and 280 points.

Get toughness 5 and go to maybe 9 points and get a normal 3x 30 man squad thats suddenly 840 points from the 750 you paid before. You already paid 750 points before for a unit that could do nothing else but hold points and hit things in close combat, and that was a decent chunk of your army you didnt want to lose. They're not poxwalkers. You DO care about boys. But if that increase of +1 toughness on boys means 9 points per model for a total of 840 points, that means less points to pay for toys that are actually going to do the damage at a distance. because boys cant do that. That will either result in fewer boys being put on the table, or boys not being picked at all, maybe in favor of Skarboys or just plain grots for secondaries and objective holding. And if it results in fewer boys on the table, then tell me, what was the point of going +1 toughness? +1 toughness or fewer boys to begin with?.

adding +1 point to hordes, is a big deal. on the other hand, if someone added 3 points to my Mega Nobz, except for the fact it would suck, it wouldnt be a big deal. (not saying they should get +3 ppm, it was just an example).

Nah my bet is ghazzy's weapon trait (current number but rapid fire) ison all shoota weaponry.

Heavy shoota - rapid 3
shoota - rapid 2
supa-shoota - rapid 4

I'd be fine with this, stack it with the exploding 6's and that's a decent buff.

Karol wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
boys with +1 toughness would only follow the current meta where everyone does more damage and where its common to kill 60 boys in one turn.

The codex tries to prevent that from being a common currency. So no, Orks shouldnt cost more by getting a +1 Toughness.

Orks dies too fast already. they should be more duable.

If that was true, and orks were losing 60 models per turn on avarge. Then they wouldn't have the win rates they have now, and instead would be sitting around with tau. gsc and similar armies in the bad armies bracket.

It is a core unit, and the upgrade is army wide, as are other. And they are made to an army that was succesful in 9th already. It sure as hell was not weak pre codex. And all knowladge from prior editions shows, that buffing low cost units is always a bigger buff, then the same kind of a buff existing for elite armies. +5inv on termintors is laughable , a +5inv on 20 boys is not.

Yet again, W/L rate is meaningless in the tournament meta, top 4 placements is what matters when trying to decide whether or not a codex/army is competitive. W/L rate in friendlies would be a better indicator, but since its a friendly game they usually don't keep track anywhere But hey, if we want to continue to use W/L as a justification for a faction doing well...here is Drukhari since April. 30.2% win rate. https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

Guess that means Drukhari need a hefty buff right?

Oh, and that 5++ on terminators isn't "laughable". Its a 50% increase in survivability against -4AP weapons like Melta. You are comparing apples to oranges. Terminators use a 5++ on weapons designed to kill tanks, Orkz use a 5++ on bolter shots. So yeah, the 5++ is used more for those orkz, because they otherwise have a laughable 6+ save to begin with. Bump boyz to a 5+ save standard and watch how quickly the KFF disappears from most lists.

SemperMortis wrote:
Yet again, W/L rate is meaningless in the tournament meta, top 4 placements is what matters when trying to decide whether or not a codex/army is competitive. W/L rate in friendlies would be a better indicator, but since its a friendly game they usually don't keep track anywhere But hey, if we want to continue to use W/L as a justification for a faction doing well...here is Drukhari since April. 30.2% win rate. https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

Where do your 30% come from? In your own link they sit at 50%. Looking at 40kstats since April, Dhrukari sit at 69%. Pretty representitive for how overtuned the initial release of their dex was.

They will cost all of the points, I mean even guard went up in cost for no reason I can even understand and boys will be far better than them now.

SemperMortis wrote:


Oh, and that 5++ on terminators isn't "laughable". Its a 50% increase in survivability against -4AP weapons like Melta. You are comparing apples to oranges. Terminators use a 5++ on weapons designed to kill tanks, Orkz use a 5++ on bolter shots. So yeah, the 5++ is used more for those orkz, because they otherwise have a laughable 6+ save to begin with. Bump boyz to a 5+ save standard and watch how quickly the KFF disappears from most lists.

5++ on terminators is actually massive since it's free and they are targeted by weapons that don't have high rate of fire. 5-10 anti elite shots can suffer a lot against a 5++ (I remember watching a batrep on Skared channel a few months ago in which a Raider tanked like 10-12 melta shots thanks to its 5++), but 60 anti infantry shots will still do a great job against boyz with 5++, as higher number of shots means getting results that are closer to averages.

In fact I typically don't bring the KFF to shield boyz while I wouldn't even consider using termies if they hadn't their native 5++. Which can also be upgraded to a 4++ and +1 save for free actually .

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You guys are making the assumption that there is no malice or intent behind slow playing as a horde army. I'm like, dude this isn't a GT. Just tell me what your intent is and I'll agree to play along.

If somebody wants to slowplay intentionally...well newsflash. That works for every army.

You know what's THE slowest faction I have ever faced?

Orks? Nope.
Tyranids? Nope.
IG? Nope.

Answer: Dark eldar.


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SemperMortis wrote:

Oh, and that 5++ on terminators isn't "laughable". Its a 50% increase in survivability against -4AP weapons like Melta. You are comparing apples to oranges. Terminators use a 5++ on weapons designed to kill tanks, Orkz use a 5++ on bolter shots. So yeah, the 5++ is used more for those orkz, because they otherwise have a laughable 6+ save to begin with. Bump boyz to a 5+ save standard and watch how quickly the KFF disappears from most lists.

Seeing 5+ is in essence 6+ in GOOD place and -2 is the new -1...not really.

a_typical_hero wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Yet again, W/L rate is meaningless in the tournament meta, top 4 placements is what matters when trying to decide whether or not a codex/army is competitive. W/L rate in friendlies would be a better indicator, but since its a friendly game they usually don't keep track anywhere But hey, if we want to continue to use W/L as a justification for a faction doing well...here is Drukhari since April. 30.2% win rate. https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

Where do your 30% come from? In your own link they sit at 50%. Looking at 40kstats since April, Dhrukari sit at 69%. Pretty representitive for how overtuned the initial release of their dex was.

You have to change the data point from comparing against only Drukhari otherwise all you are doing is comparing how everyone is currently doing against Drukhari.

They still haven't updated the website since the 6th, but from the sheer # of datapoints I don't see the number drastically changing anytime soon, especially since the most recent data point shows Drukhari with a 17.5% win rate Yet more proof that W/L rate is a useless stat when comparing how powerful a factions top lists are.


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tneva82 wrote:


Seeing 5+ is in essence 6+ in GOOD place and -2 is the new -1...not really.

If ork boyz went to a 5+ with no points increase, I would never bring a KFF Big mek for them. At that point let them eat bullets even with -1 AP or -2

 Blackie wrote:


5++ on terminators is actually massive since it's free and they are targeted by weapons that don't have high rate of fire. 5-10 anti elite shots can suffer a lot against a 5++ (I remember watching a batrep on Skared channel a few months ago in which a Raider tanked like 10-12 melta shots thanks to its 5++), but 60 anti infantry shots will still do a great job against boyz with 5++, as higher number of shots means getting results that are closer to averages.

In fact I typically don't bring the KFF to shield boyz while I wouldn't even consider using termies if they hadn't their native 5++. Which can also be upgraded to a 4++ and +1 save for free actually .

+5 inv on termintors is very much not free, and there is more then enough weapons being used that force multiple rolls per turn. Stuff like squads of 3 attack bikes etc. The difference also is that termintors, unlike raiders do not come with a build in -1 to hit. Plus a hit from a heavier weapon doesn't kill them outright most of the time, if the save is failed.

Wait for people to start realising all their x2 powerfists and thunderhammers don't wound on 2+ either anymore. Same with battle cannons or earth shaker cannons.

Presumably mega armoured nobs will be T5 as well. So missile launchers and lascannons will no longer wound them on 2+ either.

Bikes will most likely be T6. So demolisher cannons will no longer wound them on 2+.

It's a huge change.

Karol wrote:


+5 inv on termintors is very much not free, and there is more then enough weapons being used that force multiple rolls per turn. Stuff like squads of 3 attack bikes etc. The difference also is that termintors, unlike raiders do not come with a build in -1 to hit. Plus a hit from a heavier weapon doesn't kill them outright most of the time, if the save is failed.

5++ and even 4++ for termies don't cost any extra points, and Raiders don't have a build in -1 to hit, there's a 1CP stratagem ("Lightning Fast Reactions") for that. Venoms have native -1 to hit.

And while a single hit doesn't kill a vehicle outright most of the time it's also true that you need 5 unsaved hits to kill a min squads of termies, while only a couple could be enough to wreck a vehicle . Termies soak way more melta shots than raiders per point. Two unsaved melta shots should kill one 95ppm raider or two 33ppm (66 in total) termies in melta range, and that's not even considering giving them the free storm shield.


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Jarms48 wrote:
Wait for people to start realising all their x2 powerfists and thunderhammers don't wound on 2+ either anymore. Same with battle cannons or earth shaker cannons.

Presumably mega armoured nobs will be T5 as well. So missile launchers and lascannons will no longer wound them on 2+ either.

Bikes will most likely be T6. So demolisher cannons will no longer wound them on 2+.

It's a huge change.

With the volume of shots/attacks that SM have, plus all the tools to enhance them (starting with re-rolls) that won't be a problem. Finally orks vs SM would be more balanced without skewing, which is, or at least should be, the goal of a balanced codex.

Karol wrote:

+5 inv on termintors is very much not free, and there is more then enough weapons being used that force multiple rolls per turn. Stuff like squads of 3 attack bikes etc. The difference also is that termintors, unlike raiders do not come with a build in -1 to hit. Plus a hit from a heavier weapon doesn't kill them outright most of the time, if the save is failed.

Terminator: 38 pts, M5 WS/BS 3+ S/T 4 3 wounds, 2 attacks, 2+ save and 5+ invuln.
Meganob: 38pts M4 WS 3+ BS 5+ S5 T4, 3 wounds, 3 attacks, 2+ save NO INVULN

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.

Jarms48 wrote:
Wait for people to start realising all their x2 powerfists and thunderhammers don't wound on 2+ either anymore. Same with battle cannons or earth shaker cannons.
Presumably mega armoured nobs will be T5 as well. So missile launchers and lascannons will no longer wound them on 2+ either.
Bikes will most likely be T6. So demolisher cannons will no longer wound them on 2+.
It's a huge change.

How many PFs and TH's are you seeing on a regular basis in games? Regardless, it is a big change, but not nearly as big as +1 wound to all Marines. +1 toughness is equivalent to a (1/4th depending on math)1/3rd reduction in dmg vs S4 and a reduction of 1/4th (1/5th same thing) vs PF and TH. Where as +1 wound was a 50% reduction in dmg vs ALL D1 weaponry and a 33% reduction in D3 weaponry. As far as Bikers...I literally have not seen a single demolisher cannon since the very beginning of 8th. T6 is likely the least important durability buff in the game since its really only impacts S5 weapons and the rare S6 weapon. Not to mention that as of this moment Bikers are kind of crap. Their only plus side is their movement speed and their dakkagun. A single warbiker costs MORE than 3 boyz, has the same range with its weapon but it gets +1S.

Atm 8 Warbikers cost the same as 27 Boyz. 8 warbikers get 18.6 hits, 12.4 wounds and a total of 4.13 dmg vs a unit of Space Marines. 27 Boyz get 21 hits, 10.5 wounds and 3.5dmg. Nobody in the entire game is bragging about how good shoota boyz are, so complaining that warbikers get T6 is a bit disingenuous right now. Lets wait and see if they get an increase in dmg potential as well before we fly off the handle talking about how a demolisher cannon isn't as effective as before

SemperMortis wrote:


Terminator: 38 pts, M5 WS/BS 3+ S/T 4 3 wounds, 2 attacks, 2+ save and 5+ invuln.
Meganob: 38pts M4 WS 3+ BS 5+ S5 T4, 3 wounds, 3 attacks, 2+ save NO INVULN

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.

Don't forget that Termies have native deep strike ability and the storm shield (4++ and +1 to save) is also a free upgrade.

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.

The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W. I am not sure why your comparing termintors to meganobs either, as they not really used in orks armies, and if they are they are not used in mass formations the way DG or GK use them. The problem is not that unit like meganobs with +1T gets tougher, although that is a problem in itself, but the fact that easily spamed unit like boys are on a point for point basis, more effecient as core option, then termintors in other armies as core options. I mean just look at DG, they have the option of running PM or upgraded cultists in the form of pox walkers. PMs are generaly not run in DG lists, 3 units of pox walkers on the other hand, are there every time.

Also something like meganob is more resilient in an ork army, then a termintor in any marine army, based on the sole fact, that the opponent has to first deal with a bucket of orks that are super cheap. Often there is no weapons left to target the mega nobs, and if ork boys are not killed by the end of turn 2, generally the game is lost. Specially if the ork player started.
I mean if termintors were that great, and that much better then something like ork boys. You would expect the army with the best terminators to have better win rates then orks. Somehow that did not happen. And to make matters fun, then DE came out, which orks can , to a degree of course, ignore, while something like a unit of termintors was free points.

also I'd wish my termintors cost 38pts.

Don't forget that Termies have native deep strike ability and the storm shield (4++ and +1 to save) is also a free upgrade.

Aside of course of all those termintors in armies that can't take stormshields.

Karol wrote:


The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W.

Those have psychic powers though. At worst they deal mortal wounds for free, in addition to any other things that regular termies do.

And sooner or later they'll get their 3rd wound as well.

Karol wrote:

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.

The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W. I am not sure why your comparing termintors to meganobs either, as they not really used in orks armies, and if they are they are not used in mass formations the way DG or GK use them. The problem is not that unit like meganobs with +1T gets tougher, although that is a problem in itself, but the fact that easily spamed unit like boys are on a point for point basis, more effecient as core option, then termintors in other armies as core options. I mean just look at DG, they have the option of running PM or upgraded cultists in the form of pox walkers. PMs are generaly not run in DG lists, 3 units of pox walkers on the other hand, are there every time.

Also something like meganob is more resilient in an ork army, then a termintor in any marine army, based on the sole fact, that the opponent has to first deal with a bucket of orks that are super cheap. Often there is no weapons left to target the mega nobs, and if ork boys are not killed by the end of turn 2, generally the game is lost. Specially if the ork player started.
I mean if termintors were that great, and that much better then something like ork boys. You would expect the army with the best terminators to have better win rates then orks. Somehow that did not happen. And to make matters fun, then DE came out, which orks can , to a degree of course, ignore, while something like a unit of termintors was free points.

Kudos, almost every single sentence in that post is wrong. That really takes some skill, even Xeno usually gets at least something right.
1. DG terminators are 3W as well, and all other terminators will have that many as well. This has been confirmed by GW.
2. He is comparing MANz to terminators because they are literally ork terminators and always have been. They even are in fluff, both marines and orks have acknowledged them as such in-universe.
3. They see a lot of play in ork lists, both in competitive lists and less competitive archetypes because they are really good at flipping and holding objectives. They either tellyport in or ride a battlewagon and can have objective secured.
4. CORE matters little to nothing to orks because we don't have a lot of auras, and those which we have are usually locked into INFANTRY anyways.
5. Not even sure what you are trying to say here? MANz shouldn't get +1T because boy are better because DG are running poxwalkers instead of plague marines? In any case, PM still are decent, just not on a tournament meta level, and people are taking poxwalkers so they have more points for terminators.
6. Weapons that are good at killing boyz suck at killing MANz and vice versa. You kill MANz with anti-tank weapons because unlike your paladins, they usually don't have an invulnerable save any better than 6++. And no, they usually aren't protect by a KFF.
7. The notion that orks auto-win when you don't wipe all their boyz by turn 2 is hilarious.
8. The armies with the best terminators (DG and DA) both have winrates better or equal to orks, depending on which data pool you look at.
9. Orks lose 67% of their games against drukhari, which matches my personal experience - unless you have hot dice on the right targets they just blend everything.

also I'd wish my termintors cost 38pts.

Uhm, I don't know how to tell you... they already do?

Honestly, at this point I am wishing that GW totally bombs the GK codex and makes it horribly bad, just as a payback for all the vitriol and bad faith arguments you keep throwing at players of other armies.

Karol wrote:

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.

The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W. I am not sure why your comparing termintors to meganobs either, as they not really used in orks armies, and if they are they are not used in mass formations the way DG or GK use them. The problem is not that unit like meganobs with +1T gets tougher, although that is a problem in itself, but the fact that easily spamed unit like boys are on a point for point basis, more effecient as core option, then termintors in other armies as core options. I mean just look at DG, they have the option of running PM or upgraded cultists in the form of pox walkers. PMs are generaly not run in DG lists, 3 units of pox walkers on the other hand, are there every time.

Also something like meganob is more resilient in an ork army, then a termintor in any marine army, based on the sole fact, that the opponent has to first deal with a bucket of orks that are super cheap. Often there is no weapons left to target the mega nobs, and if ork boys are not killed by the end of turn 2, generally the game is lost. Specially if the ork player started.
I mean if termintors were that great, and that much better then something like ork boys. You would expect the army with the best terminators to have better win rates then orks. Somehow that did not happen. And to make matters fun, then DE came out, which orks can , to a degree of course, ignore, while something like a unit of termintors was free points.

also I'd wish my termintors cost 38pts.

Don't forget that Termies have native deep strike ability and the storm shield (4++ and +1 to save) is also a free upgrade.

Aside of course of all those termintors in armies that can't take stormshields.

wow, I mean wow. Jidmah already did a rather spectacular job of dismantling all of this garble but i just had to say WOW! I was reminded of the scene in Billy Madison where the principle gives his response to Adam Sandlers rant. it felt rather fitting here.

SemperMortis wrote:
wow, I mean wow. Jidmah already did a rather spectacular job of dismantling all of this garble but i just had to say WOW! I was reminded of the scene in Billy Madison where the principle gives his response to Adam Sandlers rant. it felt rather fitting here.

Spoiler:

Hilarious and absolutely fitting

I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.

Tyel wrote:
I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.

I'm still hoping for beast snagga boyz being units of 20, that would at least cut the cost a bit.

I would prefer there to be actual ard boyz again where you can spend points for a 4+ armor save liek the 4th edition codex. Obviously at that point the points need to be quite higher but then you can play with less boyz as you are building the army. Likely it woudl be like the 4th ed codex where ard boyz were not very worth it but useful when you had fewer models

Tyel wrote:
I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.

The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.

Only a related note though, WTF is with GW screwing ork players over with the Mek gun prices. The "newish" primaris Invader ATV is $40, 80pt model, roughly the same size as a Mek gun (I think its bigger) The Ork Mek gun is $50 and its worth 40pts on the battlefield. The Eldar's version of the Mek gun is only $24, the Imperial Guard Basilisk is only $55

But back on topic, I really can't imagine boyz going up more than 1ppm and being remotely cost effective unless there are a lot of other buffs they haven't shown us yet.

Only a related note though, WTF is with GW screwing ork players over with the Mek gun prices. The "newish" primaris Invader ATV is $40, 80pt model, roughly the same size as a Mek gun (I think its bigger) The Ork Mek gun is $50 and its worth 40pts on the battlefield. The Eldar's version of the Mek gun is only $24, the Imperial Guard Basilisk is only $55

The mek gun was an issue when they did the new kit. It and the meganobz were part of the Gold(swords) era.

SemperMortis wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.

The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.

Only a related note though, WTF is with GW screwing ork players over with the Mek gun prices. The "newish" primaris Invader ATV is $40, 80pt model, roughly the same size as a Mek gun (I think its bigger) The Ork Mek gun is $50 and its worth 40pts on the battlefield. The Eldar's version of the Mek gun is only $24, the Imperial Guard Basilisk is only $55

But back on topic, I really can't imagine boyz going up more than 1ppm and being remotely cost effective unless there are a lot of other buffs they haven't shown us yet.

From a pure plastic view, the mek gun is a more valuable model than the ATV though. It really should have the output of a basilisk instead of that of a heavy weapon team.

SemperMortis wrote:
The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.

Well yeah. Would only make sense in a context where boyz are quite a bit better than now.
Don't think it will happen though.

Mek Gunz being ludicrous expensive is bad - but (like Banshees and Flayed Ones) is not a central unit.

If the first thing an aspiring Ork player faces is "yeah, you probably want at least 60-90, perhaps even 120 boyz, and that's... £200-400" then yeah. People will be put off.

Would be much better if you got say 20 for £40. But I feel safe in saying that's not going to happen.

Tyel wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.

Well yeah. Would only make sense in a context where boyz are quite a bit better than now.
Don't think it will happen though.

Mek Gunz being ludicrous expensive is bad - but (like Banshees and Flayed Ones) is not a central unit.

If the first thing an aspiring Ork player faces is "yeah, you probably want at least 60-90, perhaps even 120 boyz, and that's... £200-400" then yeah. People will be put off.

Would be much better if you got say 20 for £40. But I feel safe in saying that's not going to happen.

ATM 10 (technically 11) boyz are $36, in Order to field 1 full mob you are going to spend $108, OR if you want thats your 3 troops choices at minimum size. So 3 full mobs is $324...just for troops. Space Marines on the other hand are $49, so you could field 3 full sized squads for $147 and can get away with just 98 or even less if you can find them on ebay.

As far as Mek gunz not being central...they absolutely are. Smasha guns right now are the massive crutch upon which most Ork lists are built. And you want to talk about a barrier to entrance, if you want 1 full unit of Mek gunz, just 1, its going to run you $300.

on mek gunz... it s basically currently our only price effective way to do anti armor short of reaching it with (slow) melee units. hard to open up a transport or other vehicles that can just zip away faster than you can move to get to the gooey center. out other good unit for this is warbosses on bikes and wartrikes but only cna have 2 and again you have to catch and charge the unit to make it work.