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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Purely background-wise, it is accurate. The Orks are portrayed as a huge threat, having numbers as large if not larger than humans AND being incredibly hard to put down. If a marine with a bolter can wipe the floor with a pack of them, how are they a real threat?
   
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Lord of the Fleet






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Seeing all the Marine players fret about it gives me a bit of a chuckle, and I say that as a Marine player.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think all this stat buff bloat is ultimately poor for the game, started by space marines but I don't think it'll stop with Orks now. No sir, I don't like it.
   
Made in se
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Sweden

Well i think this is a good change. ork boyz was and probably still is a very unpractical unit as you need so many of them to do so little. Higher toughness makes them more playable, and I prefer this change instead of more wounds (wich leads to book keping). I think the current wound table is a bit badly designed. I would prefer s3 vs t5 roll 6+ and vice versa.

Gameplay practicality should be prioritised higher than marine godmode fluff.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Cronch wrote:
Purely background-wise, it is accurate. The Orks are portrayed as a huge threat, having numbers as large if not larger than humans AND being incredibly hard to put down. If a marine with a bolter can wipe the floor with a pack of them, how are they a real threat?


Exactly and when the space marines defeat them it proves how good SM are, if Orks are wimps in the fluff then there nothing special about SM when they take them down. So ultimately +1T is good for marines
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Problem is orks are already rock/paper/scissor built at competitive levels. They're either all T4 or all vehicles. Increasing T means that infantries will have a stateline that is closer to most of the vehicles, which are light ones with T6, and so lists with a mix of everything could be more appealing.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?


That's exact the point of playing with TAC lists. You can't delete 60 boyz, a couple of elite units (say meganobz) and 2-3 tanks simultaneously, and you definitely shouldn't. Right now it's trivial to delete 90 boyz in 2 or 3 turns at most, when an horde like that should be supposed to be extremely hard to eliminate completely.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


True, some weapons will not have any juicy targets. But if you bring all anti elite and anti tank weapons, against an horde of cheap dudes (current orks with t4) you won't have targets for ALL the weapons you have. Upping orks' T should limit skewing. There's a problem when most or all of your weapons are poor against a specific opponent, not when just some of them are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
So ultimately +1T is good for marines


It's good for them because people will stop tailoring against SM at some point. Which means SM lists will do better against other factions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 09:47:00


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Orks are often described similarly to Plague Marines in terms of being able to merrily shrug off horrific injuries, makes sense to me for them to have the same toughness value.
   
Made in ca
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As an answer to OP's title question:

No
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

marines were made to fight things the imperial guard had problems with. The IG likely, especially early on, fought rebellious humans, so a S3 weapon against targets that are mostly T3 was ok. orks were T4 making them tough for IG to bring down, but Marines had S4 weapons that were effective vs orks.



Uuuh...IG weren't nowhere NEAR around when space marines were made. And nor was orks marines major opposition. Marines led the crusade to unite galaxy under humans and fought anything(including humans) as needed. They didnt' even KNOW what would be lying beyond Terra when they left out. Except likely hostile.

Also bolters weren't even intended to be primary weapon for marines but this annoying thing called "logistics" made bolters the weapon of choice as it was easier to produce in mass quantities needed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 10:03:10


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in au
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Australia

Yes. This is the end of all things 40k

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Regular Dakkanaut




I will wait for my judgment after the Nid codex is out, as the Nids are in desperate need of a stat overhaul.

But T5 boys aren't even remotely as bad for the game and immersion as the last two years of Cawl-sponsored marine circus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 11:08:36


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I think all this stat buff bloat is ultimately poor for the game, started by space marines but I don't think it'll stop with Orks now. No sir, I don't like it.


Yeah, it'd be terrible if different units had meaningfully distinct statlines, lol.

THe GAemE Wuz BetterEr WhEn you Nedded 1 weppin Too kilL Ifnantry An OnE tOo kIlLL Tnaks!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old:

Ork T4 W1 Sv6+
Guardsman T3 W1 Sv5+
Guardian T3 W1 5+
Kabalite T3 W1 5+
Sister T3 W1 3+
Marine T4 W1 3+
Necron Warrior T4 W1 4+

Yeah, moving to statlines that dont just vary based on the value of AP you need to totally deny the usage of that save stat is a TEEERRRIBLE idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 11:45:48


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in es
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Vigo. Spain.

Old GW's fear to actually use the numbers of their system was why my ogres had S4/T4 like an black orc or a chaos warrior instead of proper S5/T5 so I welcome our new green overlords.

And as a Custode player I don't feel Custodes are invalidated by Orks going to T5. Custodes still have many more wounds, much much better armor and better weapons. The real problem as a Custode player is fething space marines with T5 and W3 and heavy bolters as ranged weapons that make Saggitarum look like chumps for half the cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 12:27:36


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Galas wrote:
Old GW's fear to actually use the numbers of their system was why my ogres had S4/T4 like an black orc or a chaos warrior instead of proper S5/T5 so I welcome our new green overlords.

And as a Custode player I don't feel Custodes are invalidated by Orks going to T5. Custodes still have many more wounds, much much better armor and better weapons. The real problem as a Custode player is fething space marines with T5 and W3 and heavy bolters as ranged weapons that make Saggitarum look like chumps for half the cost.


^yeah also, reminder for space marine players, you HAVE a troop choice that is S5 base AP-1 already...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 12:41:10


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in gb
Imperial Recruit in Training




Nottingham

I do think the d6 nature of 40k means issues like this are pretty much impossible to avoid. Bumping a single attribute by one point, in this example, takes the likelihood of a bolter wounding an ork from 1/2 to 1/3, a reduction of 17% in absolute terms but 32% in relative terms.

It gets even worse for lasguns. A reduction of 1/3 to 1/6 of wounds means their effectiveness just got halved against greenskins.

My instinctive reaction is to favour a d100 system. It brings its own problems of course, but it allows for far more incremental differences to impact on the gameplay.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




6+ FNP is pretty trash (see current Snakebitez culture). And army wide, it's just another way to bog the game down in hundreds of dice rolls.

T5 is fine. The orks have always been tougher in the background than the table, and this is the least burdensome way to do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 15:17:12


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


...I'm well and truly shocked that I actually might need to explain this, but...toughness is one of three stats used in warhammer to represent how tough (colloquially) a model is. Various other rules, special and standard, are used to represent that different ways that it is hard to bring a model down.

And the thing with marines is that they have a "2" in the "wounds" stat, and a "3+" in the "save" stat....which will mean that they're...quite a bit tougher than orks, generally.

They even have models, Troops choices even, that are not only W2, but W3, and T5 as well.

Necrons are extremely tough, but tend to have lower core stats than other tough things, because a lot of their toughness is placed into the special rule they've got that makes them get back up after you've killed them. Nurgle daemons famously are very difficult to kill, but what's this? T4? W1? Sv7+??? How could this thing be tough, this breaks the lore if you look at only these stats and no other stats or rules at all!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SpeederBoy wrote:


It gets even worse for lasguns. A reduction of 1/3 to 1/6 of wounds means their effectiveness just got halved against greenskins.


OK i need a show of hands. Who participating in this thread who believes T5 orks have destroyed the setting has actually played a game of warhammer 40,000 in the past two editions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 13:15:04


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Devastating Dark Reaper





 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


They're not actually tougher though. As brought up by others in the thread, the toughness 5 ork is still easier to put down than a toughness 4 marine with 2 wounds, even if the space marine forgets to put his armour on.

I'm happy with it. It's nice for orks to be ded 'ard. As long as they're costed appropriately I'm at peace with it. Fine for fluff too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 13:20:05


 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






From what lore and novels I read I find it fitting. It's not very easy to fatally wound an Ork right in front of you, but on the other hand if you manage to saturate the target (with grenades, artillery, massed lasgun fire), they go down as they (usually) don't have powerarmor. It fits at least with stuff like for example the Cain novels where Orks where tough as nails and overwhelming if they came close or if you had to face on 1:1, but suffered heavily when confronted with massed lasgun fire (other than astartes who shrugged those of thanks to their armor).

I also have so far not had the impression that Marines were meant as a hard counter to ork hordes. From what I picked up Marines where maybe a hardcounter to Ork bosses and the like, while the greentide itself was adressed by guard. Really the IG brings massed artillery and a light, but sufficient (1 damage) gun that is so abundant on the average battlefield that they can wither unarmored Orks down pretty good.

Edit: note, that I mean "in the lore" with the last paragraph

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 13:19:33


~6550 build and painted
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Made in us
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 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?


History Lesson. 4th edition. Space Marines were T4 1W 3+ save, had a single shot boltgun that went to 2 shots if they didn't move and were within 12'. They had 1 attack base at S4, all of this for 15ppm. Ork boyz on the other hand were T4 1W 6+ save, had a single shot pistol. They had 2 attacks base (3 for CCW) at S3 base but went to S4 +1 attack on the charge. Also they were movement 6. And they cost 6ppm. Math time: An Ork boy was 40% the price of a Marine and against basic S4 weaponry the Marine was 300% more durable (boyz required basically 1 S4 wound to die, Marines took 3. In CC the Ork was able to kill 0.33 Space Marines a turn or about 5ppm of Marines. The Marine was able to kill 0.4 Orkz a turn or about 2.4pts in CC.

9th (right now) The Marine is now 2W, his boltgun has twice as many shots at max range, he still gets +1 attack on the charge and depending on what turn it is, his bolter might be AP-1. All of that for 18pts or +3pts since 4th which means 20%. The Ork on the other hand has gained permanent S4 instead of just on the charge, he lost 1 movement and +1 attack on the charge. Hes gone up 33% in price to 8ppm Ork boyz are now 44.4% the price of a Marine. In CC that ork is now able to do 0.33dmg to a Marine which is now equivalent to 3ppm of Marines a turn. The Marine on the other hand is now killing 0.55 orkz a turn or a bit over 4pts of Ork boyz a turn.

Durability wise, it takes about the same amount of dmg to kill 1 boy, 1 wound. (1.2 if you want to be exact) But the Marine...the Marine is now taking 6 wounds to kill or 200% increase in durability vs S4 1D weapons.

So that means that the Space Marine is now 66% more deadly against an Ork boy while also being cheaper comparatively. Durability wise the Marine is now 500% more durable vs D1 weapons than the ork boy. So when you sit there and say that ork boyz going to T5 is breaking the game for you...its been broken for awhile now.

Also, on the off chance you actually wanted to know. A Marine with a bolt gun at max range is currently killing 0.55 boyz a turn. When Boyz go to T5 that same Marine is going to be killing 0.37 boyz a turn. So instead of needing 2 Marines to kill 1 Boy, it will now take *Gasp* 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

FNP 6+ would have been more than adequate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are right ofc.
Typical anti space marine rhetoric will follow though...bolter porn...ect. They should have just given orks a FNP if they wanted to make them tougher.


Snakebites already have 6+ FNP. Want to know how useful a 6+ FNP is in terms of durability? That T5 reduces dmg taken from bolters by the aforementioned 33% (Wounding on 5s instead of 4s). 33% more durable vs common S4 weaponry. A 6+ FNP for all orkz means a couple things. 1: The save part now takes significantly longer, role a D6 for saves and than a D6 for FNP on 30 boyz...kind of annoying, but here is the best part against that S4 bolter with a 6+ FNP you go from a single Marine killing 0.55 Orkz a turn to... 0.458 An increase in durability of 1/6th or 16.6% but its even better than that, and ironically worse for Space Marines. Why? Because if you gave Ork boyz a 6+FNP (assuming the painboy can boost it to 5+ because otherwise what is its point?) you will see even less D1 weaponry. Why? Because D1 weaponry already isn't effective against Space Marines (The most popular faction) and if orkz got a 6+(5+) FNP than D2 weapons would actually be MORE effective against ork boyz and would therefore be taken even more regularly which would further diminish the return on investment of a 2nd wound for Space Marines.

Congrats, your suggestion would Make your Marines worse.

Ulthanashville wrote:

Tau are still the kings of shooty


....well.... kind of? Just to rehash how broken Marine stats have become of late. Tau are kind of famous for being a gun line right? their basic infantry/troops are amazing with their BS4 S5 30' range weaponry right? Well, guess what? Those Tau firewarriors who are the kings of shooty...yeah, they lose in in a gun fight to Intercessors

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


return to it? Bud its been hardcore R/P/S for awhile now. Orkz have only been able to make it in tournaments by thriving on the fact that ATM most armies are taking Rock, to smash Scissors (D2 high AP weapons to kill multi-wound high save Marines). And that Rock doesn't do well when it encounters cheap throwaway paper troops

As far as TAC lists, I can't remember the last time I saw a tac list at a tournament. Even the most "TAC" type lists are usually 60/40 Anti-tank to anti-infantry and that anti-infantry weaponry usually is easily buffed to be anti-elite infantry.

 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


Are you aware of the Origins of Orkz? Orkz are more technologically advanced in terms of their creation than Space Marines and by a LONG SHOT. Orkz were created by the Old ones (brain boyz) to fight against the C'tan and Necrons in the war of the heavens. So an advanced civilization capable of fighting against literal star gods created "Krorkz" to fight their wars and be ridiculously durable and capable of joining the battle almost upon birth. So when you say it doesn't seem right, well, that depends entirely upon your perspective doesn't it?

Orkz though are supposed to be dangerous to Marines and basically everyone else by outnumbering them heavily. The problem is that as I spelled out above, Orkz are currently MORE expensive per model compared to Space Marines than they used to be, while at the same time being significantly less durable AND less capable of damaging them.

The 6+ FNP is already a thing for Orkz, specifically Snakebites Klan and also any klan if they take a Painboy who can give every unit partially within 3' of him a 6+FNP. The problems with 6+FNP are already mentioned, but to rehash them, it slows the game down and has a marginal impact on durability (16.6%) while being even less of an impact vs D2+ weapons, which are currently very popular due to the most popular army (Marines) being W2-W3 on their infantry.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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In My Lab

Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?


History Lesson. 4th edition. Space Marines were T4 1W 3+ save, had a single shot boltgun that went to 2 shots if they didn't move and were within 12'. They had 1 attack base at S4, all of this for 15ppm. Ork boyz on the other hand were T4 1W 6+ save, had a single shot pistol. They had 2 attacks base (3 for CCW) at S3 base but went to S4 +1 attack on the charge. Also they were movement 6. And they cost 6ppm. Math time: An Ork boy was 40% the price of a Marine and against basic S4 weaponry the Marine was 300% more durable (boyz required basically 1 S4 wound to die, Marines took 3. In CC the Ork was able to kill 0.33 Space Marines a turn or about 5ppm of Marines. The Marine was able to kill 0.4 Orkz a turn or about 2.4pts in CC.

9th (right now) The Marine is now 2W, his boltgun has twice as many shots at max range, he still gets +1 attack on the charge and depending on what turn it is, his bolter might be AP-1. All of that for 18pts or +3pts since 4th which means 20%. The Ork on the other hand has gained permanent S4 instead of just on the charge, he lost 1 movement and +1 attack on the charge. Hes gone up 33% in price to 8ppm Ork boyz are now 44.4% the price of a Marine. In CC that ork is now able to do 0.33dmg to a Marine which is now equivalent to 3ppm of Marines a turn. The Marine on the other hand is now killing 0.55 orkz a turn or a bit over 4pts of Ork boyz a turn.

Durability wise, it takes about the same amount of dmg to kill 1 boy, 1 wound. (1.2 if you want to be exact) But the Marine...the Marine is now taking 6 wounds to kill or 200% increase in durability vs S4 1D weapons.

So that means that the Space Marine is now 66% more deadly against an Ork boy while also being cheaper comparatively. Durability wise the Marine is now 500% more durable vs D1 weapons than the ork boy. So when you sit there and say that ork boyz going to T5 is breaking the game for you...its been broken for awhile now.

Also, on the off chance you actually wanted to know. A Marine with a bolt gun at max range is currently killing 0.55 boyz a turn. When Boyz go to T5 that same Marine is going to be killing 0.37 boyz a turn. So instead of needing 2 Marines to kill 1 Boy, it will now take *Gasp* 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

FNP 6+ would have been more than adequate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are right ofc.
Typical anti space marine rhetoric will follow though...bolter porn...ect. They should have just given orks a FNP if they wanted to make them tougher.


Snakebites already have 6+ FNP. Want to know how useful a 6+ FNP is in terms of durability? That T5 reduces dmg taken from bolters by the aforementioned 33% (Wounding on 5s instead of 4s). 33% more durable vs common S4 weaponry. A 6+ FNP for all orkz means a couple things. 1: The save part now takes significantly longer, role a D6 for saves and than a D6 for FNP on 30 boyz...kind of annoying, but here is the best part against that S4 bolter with a 6+ FNP you go from a single Marine killing 0.55 Orkz a turn to... 0.458 An increase in durability of 1/6th or 16.6% but its even better than that, and ironically worse for Space Marines. Why? Because if you gave Ork boyz a 6+FNP (assuming the painboy can boost it to 5+ because otherwise what is its point?) you will see even less D1 weaponry. Why? Because D1 weaponry already isn't effective against Space Marines (The most popular faction) and if orkz got a 6+(5+) FNP than D2 weapons would actually be MORE effective against ork boyz and would therefore be taken even more regularly which would further diminish the return on investment of a 2nd wound for Space Marines.

Congrats, your suggestion would Make your Marines worse.

Ulthanashville wrote:

Tau are still the kings of shooty


....well.... kind of? Just to rehash how broken Marine stats have become of late. Tau are kind of famous for being a gun line right? their basic infantry/troops are amazing with their BS4 S5 30' range weaponry right? Well, guess what? Those Tau firewarriors who are the kings of shooty...yeah, they lose in in a gun fight to Intercessors

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


return to it? Bud its been hardcore R/P/S for awhile now. Orkz have only been able to make it in tournaments by thriving on the fact that ATM most armies are taking Rock, to smash Scissors (D2 high AP weapons to kill multi-wound high save Marines). And that Rock doesn't do well when it encounters cheap throwaway paper troops

As far as TAC lists, I can't remember the last time I saw a tac list at a tournament. Even the most "TAC" type lists are usually 60/40 Anti-tank to anti-infantry and that anti-infantry weaponry usually is easily buffed to be anti-elite infantry.

 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


Are you aware of the Origins of Orkz? Orkz are more technologically advanced in terms of their creation than Space Marines and by a LONG SHOT. Orkz were created by the Old ones (brain boyz) to fight against the C'tan and Necrons in the war of the heavens. So an advanced civilization capable of fighting against literal star gods created "Krorkz" to fight their wars and be ridiculously durable and capable of joining the battle almost upon birth. So when you say it doesn't seem right, well, that depends entirely upon your perspective doesn't it?

Orkz though are supposed to be dangerous to Marines and basically everyone else by outnumbering them heavily. The problem is that as I spelled out above, Orkz are currently MORE expensive per model compared to Space Marines than they used to be, while at the same time being significantly less durable AND less capable of damaging them.

The 6+ FNP is already a thing for Orkz, specifically Snakebites Klan and also any klan if they take a Painboy who can give every unit partially within 3' of him a 6+FNP. The problems with 6+FNP are already mentioned, but to rehash them, it slows the game down and has a marginal impact on durability (16.6%) while being even less of an impact vs D2+ weapons, which are currently very popular due to the most popular army (Marines) being W2-W3 on their infantry.
Minor nitpick, Semper-a 6+ FNP improves durability by 20% against D1 weapons.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Minor nitpick, Semper-a 6+ FNP improves durability by 20% against D1 weapons.


Fun with percentages. its 16.6% or 20% depending upon how you do the math. In absolute terms a 6+ FNP means if you have 60 wounded boyz you will lose 50 of them and save 10. 10 is 1/6th of 60 or 16.6%

The other way to do the math is figuring out specifically how much dmg is required to kill 1 boy. You would assume it would take an extra 16.6% dmg to kill a boy with a 6+ fnp, but its actually 20%. So if 1 dmg killed before, to kill 1 with a 6+ FNP it becomes 1.2 dmg

Don't worry, I appreciate the nitpick entirely

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Three time's the charm, two threads weren't sufficient for this I guess.

You are essentially just applying your head-canon to abstract numbers. "Hard to kill" is not just a single number, it's a combination of toughness, armor saves, number of wounds, FNP, invulnerable saves and few other special rules. This is the reason why guardsmen currently are harder to kill than ork boyz, which should be the other way around. Orks will not be tougher than marines - because Marines have better armor and an additional wound over them.

Orks, as a whole army, currently don't function as portrayed in the fluff on the tabletop. If changing any of the numbers makes the army as a whole feel and play like orks again, what does it matter whether a model has a 4 or 5 in its statblock?

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
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basically disagree with the OP on everything. its been mathed out but to reiterate from a gameplay standard T5 and retaining 1 wound is going to make piloting an ork army easier than if they had gotten 2 would like marines have. it makes sense to give the space marine and some more elite units more wounds as you can track wounds in a 5 man squad pretty easy.

I am not sure it has been noted here yet but I actually think this will be a small buff to space marines. I see a lot of people complain about all the D2 weapons out there. if there are more ork horde lists where that D2 is useless then maybe people will take a larger variety of weapons as they may face T5 boyz 1w sv6+ and also have to prepare for T4 W2 sv 3+ marines.

finally to address "the tau are supposed to be a shooting army" look Richard Siegler (used to be in my meta area until the recent move) who is probably one of if not the most successful Tau players out there will tell you Tau are a movement army. if you are playing them as a gunline against a halfway decent player you will lose in 9th. He did a good interview on 40k statcenter on YouTube this morning about it, btu if you see his games and playstyle you will see how Tau actually should be played (the man brings vespids)

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I'm still up in the air on the t5 change, as an ork player.

I'm praying that they don't go up in points, because I want to bring 120 boys and run them down the field.

Most people here seem to argue that t5 orks are still very killable, but I'm not sold on it as of yet. I'm still not sure as a player of other armies that a standard list (not countering) has enough dakka to remove 120 t5 models.

As for rules=lore, it is pretty funny and bizarre knowing a single shirtless boy is as tough as a scout sentinel.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:38:42


 
   
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





I played with the old T5 5+ FNP 3+ save PM's and I can assure you merely being T5 will not prevent you from removing them from the field by the handful. Obviously removing 120 will be hard if you put your list full of anti-tank but that's half of their list in just boyz, the other half will most likely be support elements. If the more durable T4 2W marines didn't break the game, neither will T5 boyz.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:38:14


 
   
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 Castozor wrote:
I played with the old T5 5+ FNP 3+ save PM's and I can assure you merely being T5 will not prevent you from removing them from the field by the handful. Obviously removing 120 will be hard if you put your list full of anti-tank but that's half of their list in just boyz, the other half will most likely be support elements. If the more durable T4 2W marines didn't break the game, neither will T5 boyz.


I hope so. I play with a bunch of average players with average collections. With that I could bring 120 boyz and it be an epic close game either way. Only thing I can compare the new change to is Plague Marine or Custode t5... and even before the saves what a difference it is trying to get the wound on a model with bolters lol.
   
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Keramory wrote:
I'm still up in the air on the t5 change, as an ork player.

I'm praying that they don't go up in points, because I want to bring 120 boys and run them down the field.

Most people here seem to argue that t5 orks are still very killable, but I'm not sold on it as of yet. I'm still not sure as a player of other armies that a standard list (not countering) has enough dakka to remove 120 t5 models.

As for rules=lore, it is pretty funny and bizarre knowing a single shirtless boy is as tough as a scout sentinel.


Taking a peek at my 'worst army in the game' GSC for a sec, a Goliath truck with Neophytes in it equipped with Seismic Cannons takes out just about 5 T5 boyz in shooting for a 24% points return, which is about normal for a non-specialized troop unit. My specialized anti-infantry choice, 5x hand flamer acolytes, again kill about 5 boyz on the drop, returning 80% of their points assuming they do not successfully charge into melee.

given that boyz are the cheapest "boyz-chassis" ork unit around, that's a perfectly reasonable spread between a TAC choice unit's returns and a specialized choice unit's returns against them, and we are using as our example here a steel-man of what is currently the worst army in the game.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 Matt Swain wrote:
I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


6+ FNP is a textbook bad mechanic- lots of rolling for little effect. Doubly so when it's army-wide and comes into play on every single roll.

GW's rightfully moving away from those in favor of more straightforward mechanics.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet: Orks going to T5 helps balance out their offense and defense. Basic Boyz being T4/W1/6+ but having potentially 4 attacks at WS3+/S4 made them very glass-hammer, which is extremely weird for Greenskins. The only two directions GW could go to address it would be to either reduce their offense and cost, making them essentially 'Guardsmen but green', or increase their durability to compensate.

They've long been portrayed in the fluff as extremely durable, violent, and dangerous. This is an improvement, and in line with the expansion of infantry statlines ever since Primaris bumped the basic Marine profile to W2.

   
 
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