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 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
I like how Xeno laments that the 9th Ed Marine codex was a 'massive nerf', despite the fact that it buffed Marines to W2, then without any critical thinking or self-awareness immediately switches to whinging about how the new Ork codex will be buffing their winrate further simply because Boyz are getting T5.

I'm sure all those Ork players who are doing well right now are doing so on account of the effectiveness of the Ork Boy profile, and not through tricks like Endless Green Tide and Da Jump, or specific standout units, that all could easily be nerfed by a new codex. Let alone points values.

They are literally spamming ork boys and commandoes to win. Mic drop. Lets buff that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
In any case, its all a mote point now. GW has already announced that Orcs are going to be T5 now. They are not going to backtrack on that now.

Welp and the setting is broken.

And they'll almost certainly cost more points. Unless you've seen the Orks' 9th edition Codex and see that Boys are still 8 PPM... Could be a net buff. Could be neutral. Could be a net nerf-GW could crank them up to 12 points for all we know, and then they'd be absolute garbage.

And why is the setting broken? The only weapons that are more efficient, on a model-to-model basis, at killing Marines than Orks are Grav Cannons (specifically designed and effective against heavily armored targets over lightly armored ones) and big anti-tank weapons, like Meltas and Dark Lances.

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are literally spamming ork boys and commandoes to win. Mic drop. Lets buff that unit.

1. You don't know how their points are changing.
2. You don't know how key abilities, namely Endless Green Tide and Da Jump, are changing.
3. You don't know how army-wide abilities like DDD or 'Ere We Go are changing.
4. You don't know how anything else that affects the relevant units is changing.
5. You, frankly, don't know enough about the faction to comment on army composition, unless you've really wised up since those squigbuggy spam predictions.

This isn't a discussion, it's a tantrum, as you completely ignore all the unknowns to instead whinge about how a single change in a vacuum is going to ruin the game.


And at this point I'm absolutely sure that if you end up being proven completely wrong in your predictions once again, it will in no way inform or dissuade your knee-jerk takes in the future.

Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are literally spamming ork boys and commandoes to win. Mic drop. Lets buff that unit.

1. You don't know how their points are changing.
2. You don't know how key abilities, namely Endless Green Tide and Da Jump, are changing.
3. You don't know how army-wide abilities like DDD or 'Ere We Go are changing.
4. You don't know how anything else that affects the relevant units is changing.
5. You, frankly, don't know enough about the faction to comment on army composition, unless you've really wised up since those squigbuggy spam predictions.

This isn't a discussion, it's a tantrum, as you completely ignore all the unknowns to instead whinge about how a single change in a vacuum is going to ruin the game.


And at this point I'm absolutely sure that if you end up being proven completely wrong in your predictions once again, it will in no way inform or dissuade your knee-jerk takes in the future.

Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

Yeah, GW is crap at balance. So what makes you think we'll get 7 PPM Ork Boys at T5 and AP-1 Choppas any more than 12 PPM?

They might make Orks broken. Or, they might vastly overcorrect their points with the buffs and make Orks garbage.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?

Because GW do not know what self moderation is, and this two units being "big winners" ended being one of the stones that ended up with DE being exactly the way they are, including the way they are now post nerfs. Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.

God, I feel silly asking this because I know you don't, but I'm honestly actually curious: Do we have any data for how post-nerf drukhari are doing? I've literally only seen like 1 largeish event post-nerf where there was 1 Drukhari player in like 5th place.

Found 1 more event post-nerf - Utah Open GT - top 4 Orks, IK, DG, Space Wolves.

From the weekend data which now have all events using the new FAQ Drukhari appeared to sit at 55% winrate. We'll see how the next two weekends will turn out, but so far it seems that the fixes/nerfs to Drukhari have put them into the middle of the pack currently. This is going off weekly threads on r/warhammercompetitive.

Welp and the setting is broken.

For you and you only it seems.

Eh. It's one weekend with a small number of results. I don't think we can say one way or another how effective the nerfs/DE are. We also have to give DE players time to re-optimize, I don't think we'll truly know where the faction sits for a few weeks.

Eh. It's one weekend with a small number of results. I don't think we can say one way or another how effective the nerfs/DE are. We also have to give DE players time to re-optimize, I don't think we'll truly know where the faction sits for a few weeks.

Definitely, which is why I suggested that the following weekends will matter more. On another note in the original reddit thread it was mentioned that Ad mech didn't have that many players which may change in the coming weeks and affect future numbers. So in short there are exciting times ahead.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Eh. It's one weekend with a small number of results. I don't think we can say one way or another how effective the nerfs/DE are. We also have to give DE players time to re-optimize, I don't think we'll truly know where the faction sits for a few weeks.

Definitely, which is why I suggested that the following weekends will matter more. On another note in the original reddit thread it was mentioned that Ad mech didn't have that many players which may change in the coming weeks and affect future numbers. So in short there are exciting times ahead.

i play with a lot of tournament players, i also help 3d print things for them... my printers should be renamed the forgeworld of mars at this point its all mechanicum all the time the past 2 weeks

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

23 point M 3" WS6+ BS7+ S 2 T 3 W 1/2 A 1 per 4 ork models L1 save 9+ i feel like would be the result

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

it's as easy to succeed on a hit roll vs an Eldar Harlequin as it is vs a warlord titan, the setting is broken.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

I'm doubtful that's your goal, but even if it was, all the good intentions in the world don't mean anything if you lack the skills needed to achieve them.

So what point cost, statline, and general rules do YOU think are appropriate for a mob of Boys?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

Or does your definition of horde include lack of toughness/strength?

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

because the space marine video game and a few black library authors who write space marine violence porn have orks being mowed down. Any references to books where orks are standing toe to toe to space marines were never acknowledged (despite titles and examples being sited) they don't matter, orks exist to make marine players feel stronger apparently.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

23 point M 3" WS6+ BS7+ S 2 T 3 W 1/2 A 1 per 4 ork models L1 save 9+ i feel like would be the result

The result would be ork boys would get nothing because they are already completely balanced. I posted above 2 weekends ago ^^^. During the 70% drukari per nerf. Ork player won a 68 person event (this is a pretty large event)
It looked like this.
1.Orks
2.Drukari
3.Drukari
4.Drukari

The ork list has 70 ork boys in it....Several other armies with a very similar build have also won events. What is interesting here is he had to play against DE at least once. So you can't say he just skipped by.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

because the space marine video game and a few black library authors who write space marine violence porn have orks being mowed down. Any references to books where orks are standing toe to toe to space marines were never acknowledged (despite titles and examples being sited) they don't matter, orks exist to make marine players feel stronger apparently.

Say how many boltgun shots does it take to mow down an ork in the space marine video game?

I seem to recall it being more than 4, usually. Seemed like the spread of them was such that I missed about 1/3 of my shots, and it usually took 6 or 7 shots from the clip to fully down a boy.

Canonically then it does seem like orks ought to be a bit more than T4 6+ W1. When you hit them, it's not kapwinging off their armor plating or anything it's basically causing blood splats, so you'd want to represent it on the tabletop with some kind of stat that represents raw beefiness, and tracking multiple wounds on ork boyz seems like a PITA....hmmm what stat should we use for that then, putting on our game designer hats?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

because the space marine video game and a few black library authors who write space marine violence porn have orks being mowed down. Any references to books where orks are standing toe to toe to space marines were never acknowledged (despite titles and examples being sited) they don't matter, orks exist to make marine players feel stronger apparently.

Actually that is how it always works. Orks invade with armies in the billions. If the battle is close in any way...billions of orks have to die...how do you think that happens?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

because the space marine video game and a few black library authors who write space marine violence porn have orks being mowed down. Any references to books where orks are standing toe to toe to space marines were never acknowledged (despite titles and examples being sited) they don't matter, orks exist to make marine players feel stronger apparently.

Say how many boltgun shots does it take to mow down an ork in the space marine video game?

I seem to recall it being more than 4, usually. Seemed like the spread of them was such that I missed about 1/3 of my shots, and it usually took 6 or 7 shots from the clip to fully down a boy.

Canonically then it does seem like orks ought to be a bit more than T4 6+ W1. When you hit them, it's not kapwinging off their armor plating or anything it's basically causing blood splats, so you'd want to represent it on the tabletop with some kind of stat that represents raw beefiness, and tracking multiple wounds on ork boyz seems like a PITA....hmmm what stat should we use for that then, putting on our game designer hats?

A shooting attack in this game is representative of probably something similar to that. However the damage profile of the weapons is complete unreality. Plus you are a captain not a standard marine. If you shoot them in the face they die faster too obviously. Astartes...do stuff like that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

23 point M 3" WS6+ BS7+ S 2 T 3 W 1/2 A 1 per 4 ork models L1 save 9+ i feel like would be the result

The result would be ork boys would get nothing because they are already completely balanced. I posted above 2 weekends ago ^^^. During the 70% drukari per nerf. Ork player won a 68 person event (this is a pretty large event)
It looked like this.
1.Orks
2.Drukari
3.Drukari
4.Drukari

The ork list has 70 ork boys in it....Several other armies with a very similar build have also won events. What is interesting here is he had to play against DE at least once. So you can't say he just skipped by.

My question would be who was piloting the list. I don't usually name drop but i do play with very very good tournament players for prep, i may one day get to joining them but my children are young and the wife works weekends so alas cannot yet maybe when the babies are older. Before Siegler moved he was in my area, being across the table he would take tau (or basically anything) and wipe the floor with most people playing to the objectives. Likewise if an ork is piloted by Risch Kilton or a handful of other players that really know the ork book they have a decent shot. The irony here on orks taking events is we can counter DE pretty well so them being popular we have the tools there. now with our new mechanicum overlords ahead gotta say i am not sure our current book can deal with them. To be fair marines are also going to struggle against them too so i guess all hail our new robotic overlords and the sisters who can counter them.

"Actually that is how it always works. Orks invade with armies in the billions. If the battle is close in any way...billions of orks have to die...how do you think that happens?"

as to this part, again i am going to provide a literary example, in Roboute Guilliman Lord of Ultramar they handled it some via ordinance and bombings as the orks were soft targets to those large scale weapons. Its once they were trying to take back the abandoned human ruins and they had to go toe to toe with orks that the marines were struggling. Granted Guilliman had no problem slaughtering them (and to be clear aly primarch levle model should) and the captains/vetrans were holdign thier own but squad embers were falling to individual orks all over

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

23 point M 3" WS6+ BS7+ S 2 T 3 W 1/2 A 1 per 4 ork models L1 save 9+ i feel like would be the result

The result would be ork boys would get nothing because they are already completely balanced. I posted above 2 weekends ago ^^^. During the 70% drukari per nerf. Ork player won a 68 person event (this is a pretty large event)
It looked like this.
1.Orks
2.Drukari
3.Drukari
4.Drukari

The ork list has 70 ork boys in it....Several other armies with a very similar build have also won events. What is interesting here is he had to play against DE at least once. So you can't say he just skipped by.

My question would be who was piloting the list. I don't usually name drop but i do play with very very good tournament players for prep, i may one day get to joining them but my children are young and the wife works weekends so alas cannot yet maybe when the babies are older. Before Siegler moved he was in my area, being across the table he would take tau (or basically anything) and wipe the floor with most people playing to the objectives. Likewise if an ork is piloted by Risch Kilton or a handful of other players that really know the ork book they have a decent shot. The irony here on orks taking events is we can counter DE pretty well so them being popular we have the tools there. now with our new mechanicum overlords ahead gotta say i am not sure our current book can deal with them. To be fair marines are also going to struggle against them too so i guess all hail our new robotic overlords and the sisters who can counter them.

"Actually that is how it always works. Orks invade with armies in the billions. If the battle is close in any way...billions of orks have to die...how do you think that happens?"

as to this part, again i am going to provide a literary example, in Roboute Guilliman Lord of Ultramar they handled it some via ordinance and bombings as the orks were soft targets to those large scale weapons. Its once they were trying to take back the abandoned human ruins and they had to go toe to toe with orks that the marines were struggling. Granted Guilliman had no problem slaughtering them (and to be clear aly primarch levle model should) and the captains/vetrans were holdign thier own but squad embers were falling to individual orks all over

A couple hundred Astartes struggling against thousands of orks in a local setting. Is extremely common in the lore.

How would 200 or often something like...5 marines against an invading ork army have any chance....if their weapons bounced off the ork 2/3 times? They wouldn't. Orks die in droves...the win battles through brutality and overwheliming force. Typically ork players I play against understand this. I'll kill 60 boys in a turn and theyll say..."well they did their job." Cause now they have mega nobs in combat or something. Ork boys are fodder. Fodder units should have t3 - not t5.

T5 is Custodian toughness...

It is really hard to believe this is even debatable...then again...dakka is full of absurd marine haters so...It should really be expected.

What is really hilarious is relic custodian bolters on their spears wounding ork boys on 5's...That really takes the cake - don't it?

Racerguy180 799075 11156355 wrote:

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

Or does your definition of horde include lack of toughness/strength?

because scaling of any ability on horde units is very skewed. +5 inv on a 50 pts 2W model is not much of a protection, +5inv on 10 5pts models is huge. I don't think that besides orks or tyranid players many people want to see ploping down 200 models and sitting on objective with close to zero interaction, becoming a valid way to play in 9th. We went through it in 8th, and it was not fun.

T5 does not equal custodes.
For the simple fact they have more built-in pimpness than other T5 units.


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Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 799075 11156355 wrote:

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

Or does your definition of horde include lack of toughness/strength?

because scaling of any ability on horde units is very skewed. +5 inv on a 50 pts 2W model is not much of a protection, +5inv on 10 5pts models is huge. I don't think that besides orks or tyranid players many people want to see ploping down 200 models and sitting on objective with close to zero interaction, becoming a valid way to play in 9th. We went through it in 8th, and it was not fun.

You seem to forget that points change....so those 5pt models you're talking about may not be 5pts anymore, ya know...to account for more toughness.

He was making a generalization. A cheap T5 wound gets a lot out of that mitigation of incoming wounds because wounds that get through don't cost them a lot of points.

Wounds on a custodian hurt...bad.

This game is about dice pips and getting dice pips to move in your favor. T5 is the most effective dice pip mover in the game. It should not be given to a fodder unit.

BTW - ork boys are fodder. They never have been or were inteded to be an elite unit.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How would 200 or often something like...5 marines against an invading ork army have any chance....if their weapons bounced off the ork 2/3 times? They wouldn't.

That is correct. And lore-accurate. Go watch the Dawn of War intro.

Now, if the only lore you care about is bolter-porn where the plucky band of heroes holds off a hundred times their number, just say it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks die in droves...the win battles through brutality and overwheliming force. Typically ork players I play against understand this.

For, like, the thousandth time,

-T5 is still easier to kill than T4/W2 with the overwhelming majority of weapons.
-Orks still won't have 3+ saves.
-They'll still need numbers to beat Marines.
-They're still a horde army compared to Marines.

An ork should be easier to kill than a space marine. By a lot. Not a little.

Orks will have 5++ saves (KFF is not going anywhere). At that point they are more durable than marines per point. Because -2 ap weapons are abundant. Weapons that ignore toughness are not abundant.

They will still have numbers - they currently do and have higher win rate that every single space marine supplement - each having a different play style and having received new rules for 9th.

They will now be a horde army that got a needless buff against their hardest counter.

That lore is awesome BTW. But it is also Cannon. Orks being fodder is Cannon.



Watch this...I you can stomach watching one of the best pieces of cinema ever created.

Orks will have 5++ saves (KFF is not going anywhere). At that point they are more durable than marines per point. Because -2 ap weapons are abundant. Weapons that ignore toughness are not abundant.

Some orks will have 5++ saves. KFF's are expensive and don't cover a whole lot of boyz. A 5++ save is a 1 in 3 chance to make your save roll and keep that boy alive. Those aren't great odds. Any ork player is still going to lose a ton of boyz walking up the table, because guess what, big ork mobs are easy targets. ALL space marines have a 3+ armor. And 2 wounds. Some have even more, and better armor saves!

Racerguy180 799075 11156387 wrote:

You seem to forget that points change....so those 5pt models you're talking about may not be 5pts anymore, ya know...to account for more toughness.

Or they can be costed, as someone else said on this forum, "aggressively", like DE units were. Why walk on the edge of the rooftop, when you can possibly fall. Especially if the person doing the walking is known to fall often.

-T5 is still easier to kill than T4/W2 with the overwhelming majority of weapons.
-Orks still won't have 3+ saves.

they run around with a +5inv. Now what is better a t5 ork at 10pts or a 20pts marine with a +4 or +5 sv thanks to how many weapon are at least -1AP nowadays. Plus orks being 1W more or less ignore the 2W meta. And this get worse the higher the cost of a marine is.

-They'll still need numbers to beat Marines.
-They're still a horde army compared to Marines.

And they did both of those things already without +1T or a 9th ed rule set. I mean if 5T doesn't matter that much, then neither does 2W on marines, and I can tell you from expiriance that -1W marines, when they are costed as if they had 2W, is not fun thing to expiriance.

daily reminder that including a KFF mek for your boyz blob (because you can only fit one 30-man boyz unit wholly under a KFF, its not like other auras you gotta be WHOLLY in it) effectively adds 2ppm to your boyz already.

....and there are still plenty of weapons that are vastly more effective vs 10ppm T5 5++ than 20ppm T4 4+. For starters, anything with blast, because hey, max shots!

 Mr. Grey wrote:

Orks will have 5++ saves (KFF is not going anywhere). At that point they are more durable than marines per point. Because -2 ap weapons are abundant. Weapons that ignore toughness are not abundant.

Some orks will have 5++ saves. KFF's are expensive and don't cover a whole lot of boyz. A 5++ save is a 1 in 3 chance to make your save roll and keep that boy alive. Those aren't great odds. Any ork player is still going to lose a ton of boyz walking up the table, because guess what, big ork mobs are easy targets. ALL space marines have a 3+ armor. And 2 wounds. Some have even more, and better armor saves!

This is a true story - Unless I was intercepting with a stratagem after the jump or firing overwatch. I have literally never shot an ork unit that didn't have a 5++ save except for a unit of flanking bikers 1 time.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
daily reminder that including a KFF mek for your boyz blob (because you can only fit one 30-man boyz unit wholly under a KFF, its not like other auras you gotta be WHOLLY in it) effectively adds 2ppm to your boyz already.

....and there are still plenty of weapons that are vastly more effective vs 10ppm T5 5++ than 20ppm T4 4+. For starters, anything with blast, because hey, max shots!

No it doesn't when those boys die - it covers more boys.

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was making a generalization. A cheap T5 wound gets a lot out of that mitigation of incoming wounds because wounds that get through don't cost them a lot of points.

Wounds on a custodian hurt...bad.

This game is about dice pips and getting dice pips to move in your favor. T5 is the most effective dice pip mover in the game. It should not be given to a fodder unit.

BTW - ork boys are fodder. They never have been or were inteded to be an elite unit.

So boyz are an elite unit now???
So why does T5 all of the sudden make them elite?

I'd rather them having extra toughness rather than extra wounds, tougher to wound but when you do they go pop.

Sounds appropriate.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah it's a tantrum - totally. You are suggesting we should trust GW to balance this properly? It's likely nothing popular will be removed - only additional rules added.

To be honest, the only person who is less likely to get ork balance right than GW is you, Xeno.

You are absurd. My goal is for all armies to be balanced and have a niche. T5 orks boys doesn't have a balance need or a fluff consideration ether. Ork boys are a horde unit.

So why can't they be a T5 horde?

Or does your definition of horde include lack of toughness/strength?

I get the feeling he just wants to play Left4Dead with his marines.

The result would be ork boys would get nothing because they are already completely balanced. I posted above 2 weekends ago ^^^. During the 70% drukari per nerf. Ork player won a 68 person event (this is a pretty large event)

I'd rather we not rely on N=1 anecdote to claim balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Actually that is how it always works. Orks invade with armies in the billions. If the battle is close in any way...billions of orks have to die...how do you think that happens?

*cough* IMPERIAL GUARD *cough*...

you know, the guys that also come in the billions... with lasguns that are - in masses - just enough to kill boys resource efficiently in the lore... and with Artillery that is perfect for this job (Wyvern), and potential flamers on practically every single tank/APC/sentinel they have... and Frag grenades on every dude....

Space Marines are Elites for doing elite work (in the fluff). Facing a Billion strong invasion force is Guard (or preferably Navy) work.