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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I like the trick to create a 6 on the MD but not sure I like it enough to pick a trait on it. I was considering righteous suffering for the additional durability of footsloggers.

Dakka cannoness sounds fun, especially when paired with a squad of upgraded storm bolters.

Righteous suffering would be good there especially if you're going up against a lot of S6+ weapons.
I usually go pretty vehicle heavy so I wouldn't see much use outside the 20 girl blob unit.
Another one I'd consider is the Guided by Emperors Will to reroll 1 hit or wound roll in shooting for each unit. Cuz, you know, that's just pretty darn good. Free cp reroll for every unit essentially.

Dakkaness is fun, I plan on doing her regularly. One thing I did forget that game was the Righteous Judgement blessing in the cannoness in addition to ignoring Look Out Sir also inflicts a mortal wound on 6 to wound on top of normal. So divine guidance rite ups the relic pistol to ap-2 on 6s to wound as well as MW. Also makes the inferno very nice in that combo for ap-5 and MW. Easily relied on if have a 6 in MD or the conviction to pull out that 6.

Sounds like a lot of fun, I'll have to model a Dakkaness with my extra bits in the future.

So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?

BrianDavion wrote:
So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?

Armour may say SR but they could be any order.

But, yes. If I was to run 20 girl squad it would be in SR.

Lammia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?

Armour may say SR but they could be any order.

But, yes. If I was to run 20 girl squad it would be in SR.

yeah I'm aware I can run with any tactics(proably use the custom order stuff) just was wondering if SR was worth even LOOKING AT now.

how do people rate each order now I'm curious?

SR are currently seen as one of the best orders.
Doubling the amount of MD is just too good.

I'm currently putting together an SR list which packs a lot of nasty tricks.

Spoletta wrote:
SR are currently seen as one of the best orders.
Doubling the amount of MD is just too good.

I'm currently putting together an SR list which packs a lot of nasty tricks.

It's also the best way to run 20sized squads of Sisters which you will definitely do to abuse a Transhuman/Double Objective secured/5++ (4++ with the Hymn)

I'm not sold on the 20 girl squad, for now I'm going with 2x10 and 3x5. Blasts hurt a lot on sisters.

I could test joining together the first 2 though.

Spoletta wrote:
I'm not sold on the 20 girl squad, for now I'm going with 2x10 and 3x5. Blasts hurt a lot on sisters.

I could test joining together the first 2 though.

Blast is irrelevant when it's mostly antitank weapons

Blast is irrelevant on my gants.
On sisters it starts being a problem.

There are quite a few platforms who like having a big blob of sisters as a target, especially since we are unlikely to bring vehicles, so they would be left without good targets.

Inceptors
Manticores
Leman Russes
...

It's also a continuous CP demand- I don't think it's a terrible strategy but it has significant drawbacks.

So thoughts on the following....

Briefly describe how each army composition should roughly look for each of the main orders. What units are must haves, what sizes, etc. At least to benefit the most from the Order itself.

I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better

But then you have to paint them different

Lammia wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better

But then you have to paint them different

Only if you're playing in GW official tournaments, right? Or is ITC adopting that as well?

1) That is a GW only rule

2) mine are painted that way already - bases for squad paint scheme for detatchment

3) being able to identify squad and detatchment has been around most events I've been to since 8th its not new

4) from a strategic perspective picking your army based on only having one paint scheme isn't even a consideration

Archebius wrote:

Lammia wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better

But then you have to paint them different

Only if you're playing in GW official tournaments, right? Or is ITC adopting that as well?

You have to have some obvious method of telling the two detachments apart in ANY event. It doesn't always have to be paint but any TO worth their salt is not going to let a player show up with a 'just trust me bro' combination of multiple Convictions on otherwise identical units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
SR are currently seen as one of the best orders.
Doubling the amount of MD is just too good.

I'm currently putting together an SR list which packs a lot of nasty tricks.

They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game. Argent Shroud is better for raw shooting power+mobility and most of the melee options with <Order> are terrible without Bloody Rose (Repentia do 80% more damage against marines with +1 Attack and an additional rend).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?

Armour may say SR but they could be any order.

But, yes. If I was to run 20 girl squad it would be in SR.

I would still do Valorous Heart if I was running a blob mob. The extra damage resistance pretty much can't be replaced and the ignore modifiers strat makes them the only Conviction besides argent shroud that can get full power Melta Rets.

Nothing wrong with SR, I just think with battle sisters defense matters more than offense does.

They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.

Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?

Is it just me, or do Zephyrim seem like they are solid in any order rather than just Bloody Rose? Even more so than Sacresants? They have their own wound-boosting stratagem that isn't order locked and they have 3 attacks base, both of which seem to make for a good universal melee unit.

Accepting they are a sub-optimal choice, how would folks recommend arming a squad of Paragons?

Either/Or wrote:
Accepting they are a sub-optimal choice, how would folks recommend arming a squad of Paragons?

Magnets. For a unit like this, the answer is always magnets. And they are pretty easy to do, other than the melee weapons (and those are doable, albeit very tricky).

Personally I think Multimeltas is the best choice for main guns, although it does make an already overcosted unit even costlier. It really depends on what role you want the unit to play though. If you already have plenty of anti-tank elsewhere in your list, you might be better off with heavy flamers and let the Paragons take an anti-infantry role. For the shoulder guns, I lean toward Storm Bolters as a TAC option. The grenade launcher might be okay for a purely anti-tank squad, but ultimately it's just two krak grenades per suit if you do that so I don't think it's worth it. Melee-wise, I originally thought the maces were better because damage 3, but once I realized that the sword confers an extra attack, I changed my mind. I think the sword is the best TAC option.

These might change in future editions (or even in this one if an FAQ has a major impact), hence my suggestion to magnetize and "future-proof" your models.

If you intend to hymn the suits, then the maces benefit more than the swords.

Also, while BR does a lot for our melee options, you should still play some melee even in other orders. That is because a unit removed in melee is an additional MD, which are very important now.
Unfortunately, Arcos and Pengines do not work for that, since they are not Adepta Sororitas. I suggest mortifiers and Zephs.

Spoletta wrote:
If you intend to hymn the suits, then the maces benefit more than the swords.

Also, while BR does a lot for our melee options, you should still play some melee even in other orders. That is because a unit removed in melee is an additional MD, which are very important now.
Unfortunately, Arcos and Pengines do not work for that, since they are not Adepta Sororitas. I suggest mortifiers and Zephs.

Repentia are the best choice for that.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Either/Or wrote:
Accepting they are a sub-optimal choice, how would folks recommend arming a squad of Paragons?

Magnets. For a unit like this, the answer is always magnets. And they are pretty easy to do, other than the melee weapons (and those are doable, albeit very tricky).

Personally I think Multimeltas is the best choice for main guns, although it does make an already overcosted unit even costlier. It really depends on what role you want the unit to play though. If you already have plenty of anti-tank elsewhere in your list, you might be better off with heavy flamers and let the Paragons take an anti-infantry role. For the shoulder guns, I lean toward Storm Bolters as a TAC option. The grenade launcher might be okay for a purely anti-tank squad, but ultimately it's just two krak grenades per suit if you do that so I don't think it's worth it. Melee-wise, I originally thought the maces were better because damage 3, but once I realized that the sword confers an extra attack, I changed my mind. I think the sword is the best TAC option.

These might change in future editions (or even in this one if an FAQ has a major impact), hence my suggestion to magnetize and "future-proof" your models.

Agree regarding magnets, but I know myself and am too lazy for that route.

My initial instinct was the multi-meltas as well. Does that make them too juicy of a target vs having MMs in squads with ablative bodies? Given their melee ability the H flamer seems like a good pairing especially with str 6, but the D2 of heavy bolters seems like the better anti marine option, but that brings me full circle to MMs have almost as many shots, hit harder, and range is unlikely to be an issue since these seem more like mid field brawler type units.

I've built the superior with mace and MM, but not sure about other 2. Will probably be sword, but don't know about MM or HF. Need to assess my AT elsewhere.

 bullyboy wrote:
So thoughts on the following....

Briefly describe how each army composition should roughly look for each of the main orders. What units are must haves, what sizes, etc. At least to benefit the most from the Order itself.

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

Martyred Lady: For this order, I think bigger squads is the way to go. If the 20-girl unit proves to be a viable strategy, this is probably a decent place for it. Junith Eruita is probably a good buy also, especially if you are running the big blob as she can give it Light Cover even out in the open. If you take Retributors, take the full 10 bodies; it'll force your opponent to commit hard to wipe the whole unit in order to prevent it getting the hit buff from the order conviction, and that could mean your other units live longer. As for what units are good, I think stuff like Retributors, Dominions, and even basic Battle Sister Squads (all at 10-model strength) should do okay. For melee, take 10-girl units of Zephyrim or Sacresants. One other thing I'd mention is I really like the relic Inferno pistol; it's basically a better Meltagun.

Valorous Heart: Here, I think you want to play more defensively, so Sacresants are probably quite good (ignore AP-1 combos nicely with 2+ saves). I think I'd take the Halberds as a TAC option, as the Maces seem more suited to Bloody Rose (where the extra AP makes them much more attractive). Paragons might be best in this order, as again ignoring AP-1 and reducing AP-2 can help them deal with some of the higher ROF weapons, but I admit it does nothing against meltas or Dark Lances. I really think you want to stack defensive buffs on this order as much as possible, so take a Dialogus or Dogmata for the hymn that gives +1 to SOF saves, and take a character with Indomitable Belief (could be the aforementioned hymn caller) to give you a 5++ on top of your AP reduction. This would be another decent choice for the 20-girl BSS, as the defensive ability of VH could make them a little harder to shift with small-arms fire (like Bolt Rifles that often are AP-1 and never better than -2). I would also take at least one squad of MM Retributors, as the VH stratagem allows them to ignore hit modifiers (such as the one that they take if they have to move).

Bloody Rose: Obviously, take a lot of melee stuff, as that is where this order shines. Far and away the best Order for Repentia, it also is pretty solid for Zephyrim and Sacresants. Even regular old Celestians can do okay in melee in this Order, especially if they have an Imagifier nearby boosting their strength. And the Imagifier is easily worth taking in this order, as is any kind of Priest unit for War Hymn (could stick with a regular old Preacher). You probably want to take a Canoness even if you are running Morvenn Vahl, as Benificence will allow that Canoness to brutally murder hordes of small gribblies (especially if she also takes the BR warlord trait). If you want to go for big game with your murder Canoness, take a Blessed Blade and upgrade it to the Blade of St. Ellynor instead. 6 attacks on the charge (assuming BR trait is taken) that deal 3 damage apiece is pretty frickin' nasty! Another thing you'll probably want to do in this Order is take a couple of units of Dominions, put them in Rhinos, and take a couple of 5-girl melee units (like Repentia or Sacresants with maces) up the board with them.

Ebon Chalice: Because of the EC stratagem, I think at least some Flamer units are a must. Retributors or Seraphim are the main ones that spring to mind for this, but even Paragons with flamers could be useful. I think you're still going to want some Meltas in there for anti-tank. And you should take the Terrible Knowledge warlord trait on some character because it's probably the best thing EC have access to. What else you take in your list would probably depend on which Sacred Rites you choose. Since you get to take two, you should probably always take the same two and build your list around them.

Argent Shroud: With the reroll ability, you should probably go full MSU. Take like 6 BSS and stick a Multi-melta in each one; in addition to the rerolls you can move and shoot without penalty (you can even Advance!). Retributors really love the move and shoot thing too, so go nuts! Melee-wise, I think I'd stick to non-Order stuff like Mortifiers/Pengines, or even Celestine. The regular melee units don't really benefit from the Order very much, although you still could take them if you wanted to without gimping yourself too badly. The AS warlord trait lets you always fight first and heroically intervene 6", so it's not too bad if you tool up a Canoness to take full advantage of it (Blessed Blade probably a must).

Sacred Rose: This is probably the other good home for the 20-girl BSS, as Morale is no longer a problem for it in this Order. I might also suggest spamming Meltas in this Order, as the stratagem makes 6's to hit explode into additional hits, although honestly it's not bad for stuff like Artificer Storm Bolters either. I feel like between the stratagem and the warlord trait, SR encourages a shooty build overall, as the trait allows your warlord to let a unit fall back and still shoot. The relic is probably the only case in which I would take a Brazier of Holy Fire in the entire codex, as it seems pretty good as a source of mortal wounds.

Overall I definitely like Bloody Rose and Argent Shroud the best, and Ebon Chalice is IMO the weakest, but honestly I think you could potentially build around any of them and have it work at least okay.

I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

- Ebon Chalice wouldn't be so bad if you had old Miracle Dice generation but as of now with fewer than half ways to generate them...big fat nope

- Bloody Rose is only good for Repentia and Paragons (and the latter are just a badly priced unit)...wouldn't play an allied detachment of them, let alone a monoBR army.

- VH durability bonus only applies to things like Sacrestans considering their 2+/4++ saves, a nerfed version of what you had before just can't save you from the fact that they have no damage, no MDs, no mobility and no CA immunity

Thanks Zerg, thats a great write up. Looks like my collection could go in so many directions, lol. May just go with a war of the roses approach, BR patrol with SR battalion. VH looks like a decent choice for my collection too.

Wow...

I Believe BR is still our best Order, our top lists haven't changed much with this Codex. What worked still works and the AP on pistols wasn't the reason we played BR(though is is a sad nerf)

VH doesn't quite have the staying power it had, but it doesn't need to castle either. I enjoy my games with them.

AS is our second best order now for MM fun.

Still need to properly look at how I'D build OooML...

SR is an interesting 'bells and whistles' option but I doubt it'll be meta defining.

EC may well see play as an interesting small detachment.

also junith is useless her cover save is wholey within so doesnt work on 20 man blobs. martyred lady is better off with 5 man squads to fuel another order