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KurtAngle2 wrote:
I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

Martyred Lady grants a unit +1 to hit when below starting strength. So if one girl dies from that big unit, the entire rest of the unit now hits on 2's. You don't have to lose 11 of them to turn on that buff. I'll agree that SR is still probably better, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you say.

@U02dah4: Good catch on Junith not really helping the big unit. I still think she's okay though.

Yes but your first point is not that efficient sure it's OK but not great

 ZergSmasher wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

Martyred Lady grants a unit +1 to hit when below starting strength. So if one girl dies from that big unit, the entire rest of the unit now hits on 2's. You don't have to lose 11 of them to turn on that buff. I'll agree that SR is still probably better, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you say.

@U02dah4: Good catch on Junith not really helping the big unit. I still think she's okay though.

For a moment I thought it was below Half Strenght and not starting, yikes

dammit wrote:

They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.

Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that will likely result in you not doubling your MD:

1) You would actually have to start with 8MD, not 1. If you can start and spend 8MD and can spend every MD you recycle, you'll end with 12-20 MD spent 68% of the time. +/-3 Deviations yields 8 to 28 MD.

2) You have to be able to spend MD without restriction. The maximum you can spend on your turn without Similacrum is 6: 2 in the charge phase, 1 in each other phase except Psychic and Command. The maximum you can spend in your opponent's turn is 6 unless there's a way you can spend MD in their movement phase. 4 of those 6 are saves, the 5th is overwatch during the charge phase, and the 6th is morale. That's 72 MD possible. If you legitimately spend 72MD in one game, congratulations!

3) This doesn't take into consideration how each MD is being spent, nor does it consider other uses such as Moment of Grace or Miracles.

4) Rolls of 1 and 2, while more important to recycle into a good roll, are less likely to be spent on Acts of Faith outside of Morale checks than rolls of 3+; you're probably more likely to spend them on stratagems and Miracles.

5) Rolls of 3+ are likely to come back as 1s and 2s, giving you less incentive to spend those MD when they're recycled.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?

Taikishi wrote:

dammit wrote:

They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.

Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that will likely result in you not doubling your MD:

1) You would actually have to start with 8MD, not 1. If you can start and spend 8MD and can spend every MD you recycle, you'll end with 12-20 MD spent 68% of the time. +/-3 Deviations yields 8 to 28 MD.

2) You have to be able to spend MD without restriction. The maximum you can spend on your turn without Similacrum is 6: 2 in the charge phase, 1 in each other phase except Psychic and Command. The maximum you can spend in your opponent's turn is 6 unless there's a way you can spend MD in their movement phase. 4 of those 6 are saves, the 5th is overwatch during the charge phase, and the 6th is morale. That's 72 MD possible. If you legitimately spend 72MD in one game, congratulations!

3) This doesn't take into consideration how each MD is being spent, nor does it consider other uses such as Moment of Grace or Miracles.

4) Rolls of 1 and 2, while more important to recycle into a good roll, are less likely to be spent on Acts of Faith outside of Morale checks than rolls of 3+; you're probably more likely to spend them on stratagems and Miracles.

5) Rolls of 3+ are likely to come back as 1s and 2s, giving you less incentive to spend those MD when they're recycled.

Thank you for explaining the math while I forget that the dice compound themselves like a doofus. Don't know why I didn't think the extra dice would generate more dice.

There are 3 big issues with the way SR generates dice. One is as Taikishi pointed out, that even finding a way to use 1s or especially 2s is actually fairly difficult without hamstringing something. You could blow them on advance rolls on objective camping battle sisters but that generally means wasting at least some damage, even if its just bolter fire. Another is that, while it increases the odds of getting good dice, it doesn't guarantee them so you always have the potential of spamming through your dice and coming up with 1-3 and having them be largely useless. The last one is that it requires a decent pool of dice, or a lot of luck, to get the dice flowing. You almost need to combine them with OoML to get enough dice early enough for the recycle to be relevant. Being able to generate a half dozen extra dice on turn 4 isn't that great if you only generated 1 or 2 in the first two rounds.

It's a good conviction and I think there's a lot of interesting options to be had using it, I just don't think it can complete with the raw output of bloody rose or the flexibility of Argent Shroud.


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 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.

Taikishi wrote:

dammit wrote:

They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.

Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that will likely result in you not doubling your MD:

...

I've played a couple of games with SR so far and honestly just the fact that (even at 50%) you can get no benefit for a couple of turns regularly enough can lead to some serious feel bads.
Late turns you'll likely to have evened out, but turn 1 and 2 both games bad rolls on the 4+ can mean it's a struggle to get the roll of dice going.

I don't think I'd run them without Beacon, and I don't know if I like any build that treats MD as anything other than an unreliable perk at this point.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

- Ebon Chalice wouldn't be so bad if you had old Miracle Dice generation but as of now with fewer than half ways to generate them...big fat nope

- Bloody Rose is only good for Repentia and Paragons (and the latter are just a badly priced unit)...wouldn't play an allied detachment of them, let alone a monoBR army.

- VH durability bonus only applies to things like Sacrestans considering their 2+/4++ saves, a nerfed version of what you had before just can't save you from the fact that they have no damage, no MDs, no mobility and no CA immunity

Valorous Heart are still the best option for blob sisters because they're the only order that help them actually do what they're supposed to do, which is make taking objectives from you irritating. SR's stratagem doesn't really do much considering how little damage battle sisters do to begin with and avoiding Morale is nice but we already have a lot of ways to dodge that and Combat Attrition tests aren't honestly that huge of a deal. Losing less models thanks to VH's much better defense against high ROF weapons helps with Morale as well.

Bloody Rose is the only reason to take ANY melee unit with the <Order> Keyword(Yes, even sacresants). It's between 40 and 80% extra damage output to get the extra attack and AP. Combine that with them getting the absolute most value out of our only good sacred rite (The Passion) and Bloody Rose is still likely the best overall Conviction, though not the be all end all of the army that it was. Trying to purely outshoot your opponent, even with Argent Shroud, is most likely going to end in disappointment. We're actually worse off shooting than we were before the melta changes because at least back then the Exorcist was good.

OoML has already been covered by others.

Ebon Chalice is kind of meh, i agree. If sacred Rites weren't mostly useless, it would be a lot better.

ERJAK wrote:

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.

Thanks for the tip! I've also got two Exorcists recently assembled, the -1T seems like a pretty big drop in survivability. One of them still provides a lot of versatility but do you think it's ever worth it to run two of them?

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.

Thanks for the tip! I've also got two Exorcists recently assembled, the -1T seems like a pretty big drop in survivability. One of them still provides a lot of versatility but do you think it's ever worth it to run two of them?

No

Edit: Or to put it a better way, a MM Immolator and half a Pen. Engine is a more useful and more interesting use of the points... imho

So I'm going to put together a SR battalion first (as I've always liked the look of the white armour), and I'm going to lean into some MW output. With that I'm thinking the brazier relic, Stern, a Priest with blazing piety, and blessed bolts dominions. I've spread out my MMs a little to allow MD to be utilized. I'm not going with the single blob approach, rather 3x10 sisters as my core infantry. Is MW output even something to lean into?

Lammia wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.

Thanks for the tip! I've also got two Exorcists recently assembled, the -1T seems like a pretty big drop in survivability. One of them still provides a lot of versatility but do you think it's ever worth it to run two of them?

No

Edit: Or to put it a better way, a MM Immolator and half a Pen. Engine is a more useful and more interesting use of the points... imho

And even that is STILL taking a model that's probably a waste of points.

It's funny to think about the fact that MM rets with double Cherubs are the same price as an MM immolator (150pts) but rets do TRIPLE the damage and ignore cover. I would even argue that against a lot of armies, the rets are more survivable as well thanks to Infantry, model size, and being 5 bodies instead of one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
So I'm going to put together a SR battalion first (as I've always liked the look of the white armour), and I'm going to lean into some MW output. With that I'm thinking the brazier relic, Stern, a Priest with blazing piety, and blessed bolts dominions. I've spread out my MMs a little to allow MD to be utilized. I'm not going with the single blob approach, rather 3x10 sisters as my core infantry. Is MW output even something to lean into?

Just keep in mind that almost every sisters of battle mortal wound ability is 12" range or lower, even Blessed bolts works best in rapid fire range.

Wow, if the immolator is a better choice than an exorcist it's truly gone downhill! Thanks for the advice.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?

The inferno pistol loadout no longer functions in 9th in 8th there stratagem made it work but with the change in the stratagem it no longer functions

U02dah4 wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?

The inferno pistol loadout no longer functions in 9th in 8th there stratagem made it work but with the change in the stratagem it no longer functions

i wouldn't completely agree with this. 20pts for four fusion (edit: inferno...the harlequin coming out in me) shots is not to be discounted. I think using them as a reserve in your own deployment zone for counter attacks vs hvy hitters getting up close. It's still a cheap enough unit. Definitely not worth deep striking them in though.

We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia

U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia

Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.

 bullyboy wrote:
And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.

btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.

That's definitely me, Sisters is my smallest army so I'm making do with what I've got. I was deployed when they released so I missed out on the great value of that limited edition box set. I thought Miracle Dice made it the most interesting army in 8th and I enjoyed their previous books so I was happy to pick them up.

Zealot's Vindicator is the chainsword flamer used on the Pious Vorne model right?

 bullyboy wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia

Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.

Deployed counter Inferno Seraphim is certainly something to try. Repentia are going to be flung at enemies.

Preachers only get War Hymn, but it's a good option for that.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.

btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.

That's definitely me, Sisters is my smallest army so I'm making do with what I've got. I was deployed when they released so I missed out on the great value of that limited edition box set. I thought Miracle Dice made it the most interesting army in 8th and I enjoyed their previous books so I was happy to pick them up.

Zealot's Vindicator is the chainsword flamer used on the Pious Vorne model right?

Yep, and seems like a pretty good deal to me.

At the moment I'm trying to figure out how best to farm MD for my SR army.

Outside of the +1 per BR and destroying enemy units and losing characters, what other ways are there?

Wondering if it's worth taking Beacon of faith as my WT even though my Canonness is unlikely to make much use of MD. However, if I just advance her each turn using her MD, i would technically get a 4+ opportunity to gain a MD for the army right?

repentia throwaway units can probably help too, plus maybe a few preachers. Just got to be careful to not easily give up Assassinate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia

Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.

Deployed counter Inferno Seraphim is certainly something to try. Repentia are going to be flung at enemies.

Preachers only get War Hymn, but it's a good option for that.

Ah, missed that, so only Missionaries get the +1 hymn (from the first 3).

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Wow, if the immolator is a better choice than an exorcist it's truly gone downhill! Thanks for the advice.

They have the same defensive profile, so you're comparing damage out put of the missiles/rockets and the MM/Immoflamer.

Going for Missiles/MM. Missiles get an average of 6 shots vs 4, but the MMs have the Melta bonus on damage.

Ngl though the 1/2 a Pen. Engine is the real appeal.

 bullyboy wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia

Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.

No he was talking reserves to come on and protect your deployment zone they are safe till t3 and come t3 Seraphim are not much more survivable you also have the option of flinging them from the flanks if more appropriate

Becon of Faith is worthwile as a second WL trait for Cp Regen though I expect it to be FAQed away. All you need is a gun with enough range th use each turn.

Lammia wrote:
Becon of Faith is worthwile as a second WL trait for Cp Regen though I expect it to be FAQed away. All you need is a gun with enough range th use each turn.

That's the problem; Canonesses don't have access to any decent long range firepower. About the best they can do is a Condemnor Boltgun, or maybe that relic Inferno pistol from Our Martyred Lady (even that is only 12" range though).

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Becon of Faith is worthwile as a second WL trait for Cp Regen though I expect it to be FAQed away. All you need is a gun with enough range th use each turn.

That's the problem; Canonesses don't have access to any decent long range firepower. About the best they can do is a Condemnor Boltgun, or maybe that relic Inferno pistol from Our Martyred Lady (even that is only 12" range though).

Only need a boltgun if all you are trying too generate MD though...

The beacon is a necessity in all SR lists, as is the SR WLT to recycle the bad rolls.

I would also consider the fortification an auto include, if it wasn't impossible to deploy.

Also, while it is true that SR lists tend to be more shooty in nature, you HAVE to include quite a bit of assault elements. You want those MDs out of fight phases. Mortifiers are the best choice for that.

I just realized that the Castigator and the Flag duo are so utterly irrelevant to the army from a tactics/list building standpoint that I completely forgot they haven't been released yet.

That's not a great sign for a product if you ask me.

Spoletta wrote:
The beacon is a necessity in all SR lists, as is the SR WLT to recycle the bad rolls.

I would also consider the fortification an auto include, if it wasn't impossible to deploy.

Also, while it is true that SR lists tend to be more shooty in nature, you HAVE to include quite a bit of assault elements. You want those MDs out of fight phases. Mortifiers are the best choice for that.

Except the MD is tied to the warlord so i don't see the need foe the SR WT in addition to the Beacon.
I plan just to have my canonness either advance using her WLT if 3 or less or wound with 4+ on her relic brazier. That way I'm just fishing for 4+ Md regen. A ranged weapon is mostly useless for me since I'm taking the relic brazier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
I just realized that the Castigator and the Flag duo are so utterly irrelevant to the army from a tactics/list building standpoint that I completely forgot they haven't been released yet.

That's not a great sign for a product if you ask me.

This is true, lol. Really don't care for either two.

Unless I missed it being mentioned ( apologies if I had missed it), how do we feel about Repressors?

Granted it is legends and as rare as rocking horse leavings to find official kits anymore( and be a decent price if you do), either relying on 3D conversion kits or recasters. Granted a bit more in price to a rhino but more option of firing points. Feels like a good platform for HF rets doing driveby flaming.

Just a thought.

 ghost23 wrote:
Unless I missed it being mentioned ( apologies if I had missed it), how do we feel about Repressors?

Granted it is legends and as rare as rocking horse leavings to find official kits anymore( and be a decent price if you do), either relying on 3D conversion kits or recasters. Granted a bit more in price to a rhino but more option of firing points. Feels like a good platform for HF rets doing driveby flaming.

Just a thought.

They'd be the best transport in the game if they weren't legends. They are legends though, so they basically don't exist.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?

The inferno pistol loadout no longer functions in 9th in 8th there stratagem made it work but with the change in the stratagem it no longer functions

i wouldn't completely agree with this. 20pts for four fusion (edit: inferno...the harlequin coming out in me) shots is not to be discounted. I think using them as a reserve in your own deployment zone for counter attacks vs hvy hitters getting up close. It's still a cheap enough unit. Definitely not worth deep striking them in though.

I use the term "Melta Landmine" for this strat. It's especially good if you use the old tiny seraphim sculpts (still legal, just much easier to LoS.)