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If the T9 vehicle in question has any kind of anti-reroll thing (such as the LoV Hekaton, which is T9 in one of their subfactions) even Morvenn won't help us. Only thing for it then is to just fire more meltas so more chances to wound. Also, Miracle Dice can lock in a wound. And I don't have my book in front of me right now but I think you can boost a wound roll with Moment of Grace?

It's a bit of a pickle re: toughness 9. In terms of nurgle daemons, I think sisters will be alright with weight of firepower. T9 Landfortesses on the other hand, yeah I don't know. As always Bloody Rose stands out due to extra ap and attacks in CC, particularly with repentia, paragons, and possibly even sacresants and zephyrim. There may be matchups where we just have to play the mission.

EDIT: The blessed bolts strategem could be useful against very tough targets, though I'm not sure people are running lots of artificer stormbolters.

So - theoretically - if somebody had five models to build as Celestians in a Black Tide style army, what would they arm the unit with to make them as least bad as possible?

Two Storm Bolters and then just use them as bullet catchers for a Canoness?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
So - theoretically - if somebody had five models to build as Celestians in a Black Tide style army, what would they arm the unit with to make them as least bad as possible?

Two Storm Bolters and then just use them as bullet catchers for a Canoness?

Probably meltas; unlike standard Battle Sisters they can take 2 specials plus a combi on the superior in a 5-girl squad. Maximize the firepower and make them dangerous, but probably put them in a Rhino with some Dominions to protect them and get them as close as possible to their target.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I want to make the case for The Triumph of St Katherine.

For context, I play bloody rose and use mass paragon warsuits with multi meltas and maces. For this, the +1 to hit in CC is straight fire, and the auto 6 on a miracle dice once per battle round is excellent for high damage on the multi meltas. In the first turn, if I'm using zephyrim or Celestine then I can use that 6 to auto advance 18" and get on an objective. The additional miracle dice generation is also really handy, as it means you're more likely to be able to transform those 2s and keep the higher ones. To boot, it's deceptively tough, though it doesn't offer much damage output.

The sacres rites/fearlessness relics aren't great, and the shooting attack is situational, but the other three abilities are really powerful for manipulating the game in my list. I know the footprint is large so that's a struggle, but I feel the triumph maybe still really useful in certain lists like mine.

The real value of the triumph was the extra miracle dice for leap but we don't need it any more prior to that I was running the triumph a lot.

The sacred rights give you a deny on a 5+ which is of some use in certain match ups.

I don't think it's a bad choice now it just sits in that mediocre category

But if your taking it and vahl and celestine your overflowing assassinate and so your probably better off with it or celestine

ArikTaranis wrote:
I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I want to make the case for The Triumph of St Katherine.

For context, I play bloody rose and use mass paragon warsuits with multi meltas and maces. For this, the +1 to hit in CC is straight fire, and the auto 6 on a miracle dice once per battle round is excellent for high damage on the multi meltas. In the first turn, if I'm using zephyrim or Celestine then I can use that 6 to auto advance 18" and get on an objective. The additional miracle dice generation is also really handy, as it means you're more likely to be able to transform those 2s and keep the higher ones. To boot, it's deceptively tough, though it doesn't offer much damage output.

The sacres rites/fearlessness relics aren't great, and the shooting attack is situational, but the other three abilities are really powerful for manipulating the game in my list. I know the footprint is large so that's a struggle, but I feel the triumph maybe still really useful in certain lists like mine.

You're committing a huge amount of resources to a deathball. Which is fine, but makes you VERY vulnerable to certain bad matchups.

Here's something for us all to chew on:

Paragon Suit Spam at 2022 US Open Series Grand Finale in New Mexico Best General final battle.

It's not anything new. There are a few people who have made Nundam lists take top place before.

Doesn't fix their glaring weaknesses.

Lammia wrote:
It's not anything new. There are a few people who have made Nundam lists take top place before.

Doesn't fix their glaring weaknesses.

Armor of Contempt really helped with their most significant weakness. Personally I still wouldn't spam them as hard as John Lennon did, but since he has won a lot more 40k tournaments than I have I tend to trust him to know what he's doing.

Personally I think they still need a points decrease, but at this point I don't think that's in the cards because lists with Paragons have done fairly well in the last few months.

You need to be either 'all in' all not at all with Nundams. It's the profile spam that makes them work.

AoC is nice but still not enough for them. What would work for them is stuff like resonable points on Exocists.

So how do we think the new detatchment will effect list building?

The new Munitorum Field Manual will have a big say in that. This detachment can easily allow you to ditch your Troops, but if GW presents points that make Troops (especial Battle Sisters) more efficient, they just might stay in list.

Yes without a change I can't see much value in troops I mean seraphim are just 5pts more if I want a more flexible objective holder and I can add 2 Crusaders and 2 assassins as nofos


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Thinking about it the extra elite slot for characters might mean the Preacher becomes a viable choice it was never worth the elite slot before but its very pts efficient

So based on supposedly "reliable" leaks it looks like several nerfs are incoming for us in the first two weeks of January. What we "know" are as follows:

-AoC is going away (looks like across the board, though there is a version that says TS and GKs keeps it, I doubt it though). If everyone is pretty much losing it I think it's fine. Valorous Heart should go back to its normal benefits then and we may see some more varied Orders in competitive lists again. It is definitely going to be a hit to us, but I think we will end up falling somewhere in low A or high B tier.

- "Minor Secondary Nerfs" are coming for us, which I completely expected. Hopefully it doesn't make anything unplayable though supposedly there will only be 3 faction secondaries now anyway. We just have to see what secondaries get eliminated for us. If they keep our three main ones (Leap, Shrine, and Sacred Grounds) I am expecting changes to Shrine and Grounds most likely. Either with how you score, when you score, or numbers of points you score (maybe some combo of those). As long as they either lightly touch both or just focus on one and 2/3 remain primarily intact I think we will be okay.

-Then points nerfs. So far it looks like Repentia are going up by 2, Zephyrim are up by 2, and Retributors are up by 2. So 16, 17, and 14 points, respectively. The Zephyrim I expected completely (though I feel like 16 is their sweet spot, so I am hoping its a 1 point change and not just a return to original points). Also there are character nerfs too. I am expecting Vahl to go up again and then maybe all the minor characters get a slight tweak by 5 points or something.

Personally I think the first two nerfs alone would have been enough to put us squarely back in low A tier. Other than Zephyrim going back to 16/17 points I think everything else could have stayed (though more points cuts to our relatively bad motor pool would have been welcome). I still think we will weather this enough and still come out as an upper mid-tier army (high B tier perhaps), especially as Nids, Harlequins, and then the armies losing AoC are all taking pretty heavy hits. There are many points cuts being offered to help the other AoC armies out though, something we seem to be getting the opposite of. It is definitely going to hurt but I am interested to see how we realistically expect all of this to shake out!

I think these are speculative, and not very informative. The loss of AoC is a nightmare for our durability but a good portion of out units never benefited in the first place and Detachment changes likely mean fewer troops. Its most annoying on paragon warsuits and the tanks that didnt need a nerf. We were an army of hide or get shot to bits in the open we still are. The pts changes seem unnecessary given the loss of armour of contempt and are probably to steep on repentia but it won't stop their use as they perform their role better than anything else.

Mission changes could be crippling as they are the only thing making Sisters competative. I would hope for a change to leap I would make it harder to score (you have to commit an extra aof) but the cap of 12 to be lifted so it becomes a build to it and get 15 not an auto score 12. Sacred grounds is difficult to fix without making it unplayable and yes it is big scoring bit Sisters need that to compete

GFdoubles wrote:
So based on supposedly "reliable" leaks it looks like several nerfs are incoming for us in the first two weeks of January. What we "know" are as follows:

-AoC is going away (looks like across the board, though there is a version that says TS and GKs keeps it, I doubt it though). If everyone is pretty much losing it I think it's fine. Valorous Heart should go back to its normal benefits then and we may see some more varied Orders in competitive lists again. It is definitely going to be a hit to us, but I think we will end up falling somewhere in low A or high B tier.

- "Minor Secondary Nerfs" are coming for us, which I completely expected. Hopefully it doesn't make anything unplayable though supposedly there will only be 3 faction secondaries now anyway. We just have to see what secondaries get eliminated for us. If they keep our three main ones (Leap, Shrine, and Sacred Grounds) I am expecting changes to Shrine and Grounds most likely. Either with how you score, when you score, or numbers of points you score (maybe some combo of those). As long as they either lightly touch both or just focus on one and 2/3 remain primarily intact I think we will be okay.

-Then points nerfs. So far it looks like Repentia are going up by 2, Zephyrim are up by 2, and Retributors are up by 2. So 16, 17, and 14 points, respectively. The Zephyrim I expected completely (though I feel like 16 is their sweet spot, so I am hoping its a 1 point change and not just a return to original points). Also there are character nerfs too. I am expecting Vahl to go up again and then maybe all the minor characters get a slight tweak by 5 points or something.

Personally I think the first two nerfs alone would have been enough to put us squarely back in low A tier. Other than Zephyrim going back to 16/17 points I think everything else could have stayed (though more points cuts to our relatively bad motor pool would have been welcome). I still think we will weather this enough and still come out as an upper mid-tier army (high B tier perhaps), especially as Nids, Harlequins, and then the armies losing AoC are all taking pretty heavy hits. There are many points cuts being offered to help the other AoC armies out though, something we seem to be getting the opposite of. It is definitely going to hurt but I am interested to see how we realistically expect all of this to shake out!

If all this happens? I could Sisters comfortably dropping into the red zone until the dataslate after.
Forrunately rumours are just that and incomplete ones are imcomplete until it all comes out.

I'm not sure it would be that despairing more a C tier Soup build with three armigers

Vahl 3 units of paragon warsuits 3 armigers comes to about 1500 add on a 60pt DS seraphim objective holder along with 2 Crusaders and 2 assassins as your cheap backfield you have the core of a still reasonable list its just not sistersy

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure it would be that despairing more a C tier Soup build with three armigers

Vahl 3 units of paragon warsuits 3 armigers comes to about 1500 add on a 60pt DS seraphim objective holder along with 2 Crusaders and 2 assassins as your cheap backfield you have the core of a still reasonable list its just not sistersy

Losing AoC kills Nundams, unless GW is willing to cut points agressively... they just don't last.

2 model squads won't hold objectives.

I do agree 3x Helverins in every sister list though. Probably with 30 Sacs, 20 Rets with Hospi and 2 Dogmatas.

2 model squads are placeholders to sit on back objectives out of LOS. They perform the same role as BS now which just as easily die to stiff breeze. Its just more pts efficient and easier to hide given the smaller footprint.

It's a massive loss to nundams but they are still efficient damage output wise and if zephrim become inefficient pts wise, then being a high toughness army supported by a couple of reserved repentia seems like the best option to me (even if it is nerfed)

U02dah4 wrote:
2 model squads are placeholders to sit on back objectives out of LOS. They perform the same role as BS now which just as easily die to stiff breeze. Its just more pts efficient and easier to hide given the smaller footprint.

It's a massive loss to nundams but they are still efficient damage output wise and if zephrim become inefficient pts wise, then being a high toughness army supported by a couple of reserved repentia seems like the best option to me (even if it is nerfed)

There are guns 5 sisters survive that 2 Crusaders won't, but that will come down to a lot of ifs and buts.

I expect Zeph to remain compeditive but a little overcosted, they're in the same boat as Repentia and Rets to some degree, though nowhere near the same level.

I think the real question is exactly how much everyone else gets hit around us, especially the other AoC armies that are losing AoC but getting points cuts. The rumors already state that Nids and Harlequins are taking solid hits (more points nerfs to Nids, especially on warriors, and Harlies are supposedly going to a 5++ instead of a 4++). That alone I think is going to keep us in the B tier mix. I think it really just depends on how the other AoC armies come out and if we receive any slight points buffs at all, which probably were just not mentioned because of how comparatively insignificant they were.

Again as we all know we need to take any leaks with salt, but I think even worst case scenario we are going to come out of this mid tier as long as no other faction around us gets an insane buff of some kind.

GFdoubles wrote:
I think the real question is exactly how much everyone else gets hit around us, especially the other AoC armies that are losing AoC but getting points cuts. The rumors already state that Nids and Harlequins are taking solid hits (more points nerfs to Nids, especially on warriors, and Harlies are supposedly going to a 5++ instead of a 4++). That alone I think is going to keep us in the B tier mix. I think it really just depends on how the other AoC armies come out and if we receive any slight points buffs at all, which probably were just not mentioned because of how comparatively insignificant they were.

Again as we all know we need to take any leaks with salt, but I think even worst case scenario we are going to come out of this mid tier as long as no other faction around us gets an insane buff of some kind.

Can we consider win percentages instead ot tier ranks?

Not really win percentages are to precise we are 55% now pts changes will negligible effect things AoC will be a 5%ish drop except in the mirror and missions could be anywhere form -10 to -25% its to hard to predict

Gf doubles good point but AoC has more impact the lower the ap of an attack SM use lots of ap1 and ap2 we use lots of ap3 and 4 so it disproportionately benefited us. Xenon and non sm imperium get straight buffed comparatively it's bad. Add to that pts drops well 45%-55% is ideal and we were dropping from 55% it is easy to say without mission tweaks we would be middling with mission tweaks it could be worse exact percentage not a scooby.

Are we 55%? Last GW published numbers we were 52% and I doubt we have gone up

I prefer to use the stat check data rather than GW we have hovered at 55%for months of course sampling error will alter that by plus or minus a couple of percent if you look on a weekly basis

The main difference comes from the data being more stratified we have a veteran win rate of 54% in the current sample data but a casual player (first tournament) win rate of 46% - GW smoosh all results together which doesn't really reflect a factions true performance at tournament level

U02dah4 wrote:
I prefer to use the stat check data rather than GW we have hovered at 55%for months of course sampling error will alter that by plus or minus a couple of percent if you look on a weekly basis

The main difference comes from the data being more stratified we have a veteran win rate of 54% in the current sample data but a casual player (first tournament) win rate of 46% - GW smoosh all results together which doesn't really reflect a factions true performance at tournament level

I mean, no single metric does...


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I probably should clarify too that my low expectation of Sisters is somewhat dependant on GW fixing the passively maxing secondaries issue.

+2 pts on repentia loss of AoC confirmed

U02dah4 wrote:
+2 pts on repentia loss of AoC confirmed

Not as many as rumoured though. And it was suggested that secondaries are tweeked rather than overhauled, So we may keep our passive play...

Still it is a nerf to 90% of our codex and others got buffed I'm glad the supermajor I'm going to next weekend is past rules cut off

Correction I missed a page
Mortifier -5pts
Exorcist -10pts
Immolator -10pts

Secondaries

https://tabletoptactics.tv/2023/01/05/war-zone-arks-of-omen-secondaries-warhammer-40000-state-of-play/


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Defend the Shrine is good Sacred ground is better than I expected but slightly worse

Leap however is a mess from auto 12 every game

To something still capped at 12 but more expensive (cost 5 miracle dice) and less reliable spending a 4+ each battle round for 10 with 2 6's wasted to get 12 and there's no guarantee of getting that many every game so probably an avg 10 max12 secondary still atleadt its non interactive and possibly makes a case for the triumph/sanctum