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 JNAProductions wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.

Except that makes matches rock-paper-scissors. And that's not fun for a game that lasts hours.

Ideally, GK would be good against Daemons because their preferred tactics are good against Daemons' preferred tactics, but bonuses like "Deal triple the number of mortal wounds with Smite" would be reserved for narrative play.

A strong capability to circumvent invuln saves would be something GK could have that makes them strong against daemons without being specifically strong against daemons, for example. That ability could be tuned around how strong it is fighting other factions as well, rather than just "well we have to make this strong enough to auto-win against daemons or else GK auto-loses against everything else".

Psilencers used to ignore invul saves, but everybody took Psycannons because they were more useful in general and against a wider range of targets.

In an army starved for anti-tank, you really can't spend your ressources on "yet another S4 gun with a mediocre profile".

Why not just settle for (boring) Stratagems? Several factions have those against specific (sub)factions. In the current design paradigm, that would be the place to go for stuff like that. And Crusade of course.

So you mean like making every unit in the army psychic so that they all generate mortal wounds?

Yeah, GW should do tha...

Oh, wait.

Karol wrote:
The talk that DE are going to be OP was being done in autum last year,.

I'm curious where you were seeing that last fall because every discussion of it that I saw was intensely negative, even earlier this year, after some of the previews (Warriors getting 2 attacks is so dumb ... GW doesn't know what to do with us... etc. etc.) right up until the codex came out!

So I don't know where that was but I wouldn't use it as much of a precedent.

Don't forget the few weeks after the DE codex release where there was a thread detailing that the DE needed more buffs and a (for some reason) a complete re-write because it wasn't going to win against Death Guard.

Yeah. That aged well.

How was anything I said about them being OP, really good is slightly better statistically than not.

They should just be a little better than everyone else against daemons and a little worse against everything else, as a result of them being specialized.

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?

It really doesn't when you blind pick your army and the whole army consists of these specialists.

It could make sense if GK were a single unit choice for Guard and vice versa with Daemons for CSM.

Racerguy180 wrote:
How was anything I said about them being OP, really good is slightly better statistically than not.

They should just be a little better than everyone else against daemons and a little worse against everything else, as a result of them being specialized.

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?

The issue is that this results in non-games. If the daemon player just automatically gets curb-stomped by GKs, what's the point? We had these things in the past and outside of a few lore-fans no one liked it - neither the GK or the Daemons.

These things belong in the crusade section of a book, not in regular games.

PenitentJake wrote:
So you mean like making every unit in the army psychic so that they all generate mortal wounds?

Yeah, GW should do tha...

Oh, wait.

yeah. maybe not with 12" range doing 1MW. And remember being eveything psychic = your opponent gets to double dip on kill objective. The way 9th is designed, any army which can't limit giving out secondaries is bad. And it is not free either. Just look the price hikes GK got in the last , would have goten if the codex was out as it was suppose to, 23pts for naked strike. That is a brutal price, because for example Intercessors with a similar statline are really used in other marine armies.

But it would be nice, if not only characters were able to cast the PA psychic powers.

If the daemon player just automatically gets curb-stomped by GKs, what's the point

It didn't seem to be a problem when demon and chaos had an auto win vs GK in 8th, as long as they took demon ally. So why not have GK win vs them in this edition? I mean Belfegor practically kills the custodes army on his own, and I don't think chaos players are asking for him to be nerfed, because custodes players are going to be having a bad time playing vs him.

They should just be a little better than everyone else against daemons and a little worse against everything else, as a result of them being specialized.

But that is not what the lore says. GK have no problems with killing non demon stuff either. They purge regiments of IG, space marine chapters etc on regular basis. They are marines+. Everything marines are, plus each one is a librarian in training, with better gear or gear that dates back to the pre long night era. I would love to get guardian suits in the new codex, not my brotherhood that uses them, but they are golden age tech.


Who knows maybe there is going to be a scenario book for 1ksons/GK when their books are finaly out. If it made any of my models as killy and useful as a strife succubus, it would be really fun.

Karol, begging that your GK's are as killy as a Strife succubus AND that they're better against Daemons is ludicrous

It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.

Racerguy180 wrote:

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?

Daemons should have 50% win rate vs GK. So no more scared than vs IG, marines, orks, tyranids.

edit: Well slightly less than 50%. Draws are in the game.

Karol wrote:
It didn't seem to be a problem when demon and chaos had an auto win vs GK in 8th, as long as they took demon ally. So why not have GK win vs them in this edition?

You clearly have never played against daemons in 8th. That stratagem didn't do gak for daemon players against GK who just drowned them with MW until all of them were dead. It was a failed attempt to even the scales at best.

Who knows maybe there is going to be a scenario book for 1ksons/GK when their books are finally out. If it made any of my models as killy and useful as a strife succubus, it would be really fun.

Let's hope that they are all as killy and useful as 8 point ork boyz. According to you that would be insanely powerful, right?

tneva82 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?

Daemons should have 50% win rate vs GK. So no more scared than vs IG, marines, orks, tyranids.

edit: Well slightly less than 50%. Draws are in the game.

I think GKs can gave tools that are highly effective agaisnt deamons that deamons are still capable of putting up a fight with, and also are fairly solid vs other armies.

Here's some thoughts on the issue

1: - Make the Aegis be a 6 inch aura ability that increases invul saves by +1 (so a 4++ becomes a 5++ etc) this means deamons who are typcially a close range army are definatly going to be impacted by it. however i'll also be a pretty solid ability as it'll also give GKs an edge vs things like bladeguard, stormshield termies etc.

2- access to multiple psykic disiplines. proably the standard librarius disipline, a "generalist GK" disippline, and one only for their libbies and stuff., psykic powers needs to be how Grey Knights flex their muscles

3: this is a long term thing but IMHO the "1 kit, 3 or 4 differant units" has hurt Grey Knights and I'd like long term GW to give GKs more kits and to consolidate things just a smidge. (or baring that put out a purfifer kit that have a wider varity of good weapons)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.

Maybe the Craftworlds aren't as free of Slaanesh's influence as they thought...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
...they're kind of the jack of all trades, master of nun faction...

Guards! GUARDS!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.

Utter death to Ulthwe Seer Council lists, maybe? I didn't think the Eldar had that many Invuls in 3rd/4th (no Wraithblades, no saves on any vehicles, none of the Aspects had an Invul before 8e...). Or do you mean utter death to DE? Under the vehicle rules back then the flickerfields didn't increase their overall survivability that much, it just gave them a save in the open they'd normally need to hug cover to get.

I'm not a fan of rules that flat out say "if you're facing x, you get y"

However for GK, I would be happy to see them have heavy weapons that can ignore invul instead of have AP. So it'll be somewhat effective against weaker demons (fluff), but a few other random units across other codexes as well.

Grey Knights, to work, just need to be loyalist thousand sons. Psychic heavy elite space marines, thats enough of a niche no other force in the Imperium umbrella really can do. Nothing more. Leave anti daemon stuff to their fluff and maybe narrative relics and upgrades/rules.

Stuff like anti invul rules etc... are cool because they work agaisnt a ton of stuff but also greatly agaisnt demons. But "demons receive -1 to their invuls" would be bad game design.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.

Ah hah!

Proof that Eldar ARE daemons...always knew it.

Never trust an elf.

Especially one from space.

Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.

It's usually Inquisition forces that do the cleanup. The Months of Shame where the GK directly got involved and fought with the Space Wolves was a notable exception that the GK were not pleased with, basically being forced to do it by the Inquisitor. They thought that their skills/expertise were being wasted and that they should instead be fighting daemons rather than literally anything but daemons.

Karol wrote:
Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.

So what do you want for GK? How would you represent them on the tabletop?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:
Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.

So what do you want for GK? How would you represent them on the tabletop?

I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes. The coolest one was the Interceptors' power that slowed down enemies and forced flying monsters into hover mode so they could be charged (add the ability to take an interceptor-pack character in that unit and you get a little assassin squad that runs Daemon Princes to ground and chops them into little pieces). Oddly all the non-daemon-specific anti-daemon tech (penalizing Invulnerable saves and stuff that made them more effective at chopping through infantry hordes, killing monsters, and killing psykers) made them also really good at fighting Tyranids.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:
Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.

So what do you want for GK? How would you represent them on the tabletop?

I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes. The coolest one was the Interceptors' power that slowed down enemies and forced flying monsters into hover mode so they could be charged (add the ability to take an interceptor-pack character in that unit and you get a little assassin squad that runs Daemon Princes to ground and chops them into little pieces). Oddly all the non-daemon-specific anti-daemon tech (penalizing Invulnerable saves and stuff that made them more effective at chopping through infantry hordes, killing monsters, and killing psykers) made them also really good at fighting Tyranids.

I agree that a return to the days of "each squad has a unique power" rather then just a generic list of powers would work nicely. maybe word it as "borther hood of psykers: squad may cast smite." and then give each squad a specific power that it "may activate if it has not cast any psykic powers"

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Utter death to Ulthwe Seer Council lists, maybe? I didn't think the Eldar had that many Invuls in 3rd/4th (no Wraithblades, no saves on any vehicles, none of the Aspects had an Invul before 8e...). Or do you mean utter death to DE? Under the vehicle rules back then the flickerfields didn't increase their overall survivability that much, it just gave them a save in the open they'd normally need to hug cover to get.

No I mean Eldar. Multi-shot S6 weapons everywhere. They wound virtually all Eldar on 2+, their leaders die instantly to their attacks, and even their tanks aren't safe from the guns people take 2 of in every unit.

About the only thing that didn't care was the Wraithlord, because, well, the Wraithlord didn't care about much.

I am most exited about the new rules they will be giving to the various CSM legions. Although... it boggles my mind that there are so many books with rules supplements for CSM legions and yet, they are still ,,, kinda weak. lol

Its like there are CSM rules in Vigilance, faith and fury, for Fabious Bile in PA, the CSM codex 2 in 8th ed, and now in the upcoming book of fire. Wow, how many books are we going to need to play one army? lol And despite all those supplementary rules, CSM legions often struggles... lol I just don't get it.

I look forward to my Red Corsairs losing their 3 CP ability.

I look forward to Charadon book 2 reprinting the Psychic Awakening legion rules verbatim!

Rihgu wrote:
I look forward to Charadon book 2 reprinting the Psychic Awakening legion rules verbatim!

Heh. That's pretty funny actually.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes

Yeah, I never understood why they did away with those unit-specific powers, they really should get those back instead of cherry picking from disciplines.