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Rihgu wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.

In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.

Because you're adding something to a range that fulfills and competes with a fantasy (bad ass women in power armor) that already exists. Now you have two products that appeal to the same demographic with double the production costs. Why would you want to split your demographic between two separate products when they could be sufficiently satisfied with one?

I mean seriously do you think people are going to jive with Sisters as much as they have if they add female Space Marines?

 Dolnikan wrote:
Given what the Space Marine process entails, I would say include female heads and use the same bodies. After all that work, and with such thick armour, there really won't be much of a trace of the original body shape left. And yes, I would also go for short-cropped hair, for the typical practical reasons. That would give a badass look.

This.

Astartes are no longer human. So there’s no reason for either male or female Astartes armour to conform to classical stereotypes.

I mean, Astartes are traditionally entirely asexual. They don’t have relationships. They don’t have babies. Have the removal of lady parts part of the body horror transformation process from Homo Sapien to Homo Astartes.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.

In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.

Because your adding something to a range that fulfills and competes with a fantasy (bad ass women in power armor) that already exists. Now you have two products that appeal to the same demographic with double the production costs. Why would you want to split your demographic between two separate products when they could be sufficiently satisfied with one?

I mean seriously do you think people are going to jive with Sisters as much as they have if they add female Space Marines?

You're ignoring the fact that most of the people who want FSM are already making FSM instead of playing Sisters of Battle.
Female Space Marines are a different aesthetic, lore, fantasy than Sisters of Battle and reducing them both to just "bad ass women in power armor" is incorrect. The products appeal to different demographics as already shown in reality in the current day.

Just a reminder, for the sake of trying to keep this poll going for long enough to get decent results:

Please can anyone who wants to argue with anyone over what they've said in a post here do it via Private Message!

By all means voice your own opinions on the subject, but please don't pick up something someone else has said and try to tell them that they are wrong about it!

I really don't want these threads to get shut down before they've had a chance to run for a couple of days!

Rihgu wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.

In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.

Because your adding something to a range that fulfills and competes with a fantasy (bad ass women in power armor) that already exists. Now you have two products that appeal to the same demographic with double the production costs. Why would you want to split your demographic between two separate products when they could be sufficiently satisfied with one?

I mean seriously do you think people are going to jive with Sisters as much as they have if they add female Space Marines?

You're ignoring the fact that most of the people who want FSM are already making FSM instead of playing Sisters of Battle.
Female Space Marines are a different aesthetic, lore, fantasy than Sisters of Battle and reducing them both to just "bad ass women in power armor" is incorrect. The products appeal to different demographics as already shown in reality in the current day.

So if the demographic that wants female space marines so badly just converts them with the established kits why would a company go out of its way to undermine the lore, aesthetic, and demographic appeal, all whilst incurring additional production costs to make them?

Marines are a fraternal brotherhood of beefed up space monks and sisters are nuns with guns. You risk undermining both ranges and fantasies by continuing to advocate for homogenization.

If you REALLY REALLY want female space marines the only way I'd concede is if they remained as sisters of battle crossing the Rubicon Primaris. Otherwise you undermine the idea of fraternal and sorority militant orders.

A.T. wrote:
The poll is missing an option: "don't change the models".

The existing marine heads are entirely suitable for a girl who has been bio-engineered into a 500lb slab of vat grown muscle and testosterone - there is no reason that the process would stop at the neck, especially given the young age of recruits.

There is ultimately a difference between having female space marines and 'feminine' space marines. Particularly at the 28mm scale there is only so much you can do, 3rd party heads tend to have slimmer jaws and softer features which give them a female appearance but not that of a testosterone-poisoned gene warrior.

This is the correct answer.

It is in theory but the current Space Marine head will require some reworking in order to function as proposed. I personally think it would be easier simply to add a few more head options.

Since male space marines have a variety of heads and faces, I feel female space marines should have suitably feminine female heads and faces as well as some less feminine ones.

The only reason to use masculine heads and say the female space marines look the same would be if every space marine looked like Robert Z’dar. They don’t, so normal human heads for everyone.

If looking at this realistically speaking, why would Games workshop, who are not known for doing gak they dont have to, waste their time with making female body parts so you can have female look alike space marines, for their most selling army?

The space marine army already sells like wild fire, they dont "have" to make new kit parts like female heads or torsos. so they most likely wont do it.

But if we went by the idea that they wanted to do so, i guess a more female torso or something like that would fit well. Sure one could add female helmets, but realistically speaking, why would you wear a different kind of helmet because you are female? except for wearing smaller helmets in the army today, there is no difference between male and female helmets.

I dont see different helmets with feminine features as making any sense. I only really see one way to do it and that would be to have a different torso that fits to the female physique. Im not even sure a female space marine would have boobs so im not even sure that would be needed. And even if they do, im not even sure that the chest plate alone would be different at all.

Furthermore, given that females no matter what you really do to them are generally smaller than men, probably even more so in a space marine setting that pumps testosterone in to their "victims" to turn them to space marines, which is probably amplified by the men, i could see maybe the female space marine having the same base size, but being a bit smaller in size as they wouldnt have the "need" to wear as large armor as the men does, when they arent as large. What would the point me? it would be wasted material that they wouldnt be able to move around in as easily.

With that we also add the chance of more using females in the tabletop game, because people want smaller miniatures, since they are easier to hide.

So no i dont see how they should do it in a way that makes sense. They would probably just add a female torso and maybe add a helmet with feminine figures which would make zero sense, and a sculpt thats just as large as the mens even though that too, wouldnt make any sense.

To be fair, people can just say that they are using an all female chapter if they want. Its not like we see the face of those wearing helmets anyway.

I used to be on-board for adding them, but I've since reversed that position.

i vote that everytime a "we want female models cuz" post crops up, that its instantly locked and the result of this poll are linked in the lockup post.

Also, it should be stickied.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
i vote that everytime a "we want female models cuz" post crops up, that its instantly locked and the result of this poll are linked in the lockup post.

Also, it should be stickied.

Because of a narrow 53%-47% majority? Way more niche opinions than that don't get locked.

Sticking it as an argument-silencer would be just the most hideous possible clown-mirror reflection on Dakka and the 40K community as a whole.

Why do I get the impression that the folks who want to introduce women into the SM faction are the same ones who tried previously without success to include Shaggy from Scoobie Doo into Mortal Kombat 11?

 Sledgehammer wrote:


So if the demographic that wants female space marines so badly just converts them with the established kits why would a company go out of its way to undermine the lore, aesthetic, and demographic appeal, all whilst incurring additional production costs to make them?

Because some people believe that doing so will expell misoginist from the 40K community and if that happened those people will be happy.

Its a solid reason.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Why do I get the impression that the folks who want to introduce women into the SM faction are the same ones who tried previously without success to include Shaggy from Scoobie Doo into Mortal Kombat 11?

Judging from all the cheesecake images of them you see on r/imaginarywarhammer and the like I think I know exactly what kind of person wants female SMs...

Saw this 'not-reiver' recently.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944

That model on its own sold me on the idea female astartes can work, even if it leans towards more 'realistic than 'heroic' scale. Graceful, athletic and strong, yet feminine. Reminds me of most of the ladies I crossfitted with.

Imo, headswaps and keep everything the same is intellectually lazy. If you're adding females to the range, I think it's a bit insulting to the idea to ignore everything that makes them female.

And no, I'm.not talking boobplate and corsets, but I do think there should be at least one pun based on a model armed with 'power heels'. I saw someone use the term 'subdued femininity' and its something I tend to agree with. Look at stormcast and there is an obvious but aesthetically small difference between them. And it's 'tasteful'. Other examples from pp include the precursor knights and trencher long gunners where the kits have male and female troopers. You can't really tell the difference from a distance but they're there.

Doesnt need much. Softer facial features, more angled chin, not square, a bit more of a feminine shape at hips and chest breastplate without leaning towards boobplate and a feminine 'looking' haircut like a mohawk/ponytail/undercut would be ideal.

I would lean towards a new phobos armed unit to introduce them, as that's how gw seems to work these days. I like the notion of leaning towards thematicly empowered female characters like artemis/diana or else historical shield maidens, mythological valkyriea as to inspire their tactical role.

But yeah, purely from a modelling pov, lots of interesting projects and themes come to mind. Honestly, the idea excites me.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Why do I get the impression that the folks who want to introduce women into the SM faction are the same ones who tried previously without success to include Shaggy from Scoobie Doo into Mortal Kombat 11?

Judging from all the cheesecake images of them you see on r/imaginarywarhammer and the like I think I know exactly what kind of person wants female SMs...

And judging from a lot of the images I've seen... I think I know exactly what kind of person wants SMs to remain all male...

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?

Anyone here read Michael Anderle's Kurtherian Gambit series? A nice gender neutral alliteration is 'Battle Bitch' ( and yes, the males in the series are called that too).

Vatsetis wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:


So if the demographic that wants female space marines so badly just converts them with the established kits why would a company go out of its way to undermine the lore, aesthetic, and demographic appeal, all whilst incurring additional production costs to make them?

Because some people believe that doing so will expell misoginist from the 40K community and if that happened those people will be happy.

Its a solid reason.

I think there are much better ways of doing that. The update to sisters and the integration of women into the guard would be a much better step. I just don't think you have to compromise the lore or the identity of factions in order to obtain that.

Apparently SM is the only faction that matters for representation since they are the flagship.

According to this logic, all other factions can be restricted by the lore... But SM alone have no other in universe identity apart from representing whatever each gamer wants to represent.

That is also not true. All the factions that are mixed should be getting their range updates and nobody from the other thread has denied this. They're saying that as well as that, the flagship product that takes up over 50% of the game should be mixed as well.

I don't particularly care either way but honestly I would hope that GW would have priorities other than revising the Marine range yet again.

Given that there are plethoras of female head-swaps available elsewhere, it seems anyone desperately wanting female Space Marines is hardly without options (which is more than can be said for, say, Eldar players who just want models that aren't old enough to drink ).

Vatsetis wrote:
The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines.

You mean like using the models that already exist and saying they've been so heavily modified that they're virtually indistinguishable from male space marines?

What problem are we solving again?

Vatsetis wrote:
This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.

I demand male Sisters of Battle models! It's the only way the 40k community will ever be free of misandry, harassment and death threats.

If you frame things like that is sound a bit absurd... But I swear you is very, very important for some people.

Very well, let me phrase it differently - are there enough players wanting female Space Marines for it to be worth GW putting female heads in future kits (or, God help us, remaking all the existing SM kits to have female heads), as opposed to the people wanting female SMs just converting their own via appropriate head-swaps?

Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame things like that is sound a bit absurd... But I swear you is very, very important for some people.

Ok but what if I say it is really, really important to me that GW makes male sisters of battle and male sisters of silence. That does not mean it's a good idea to implement, which female space marines are not imo. I voted not to implement them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Very well, let me phrase it differently - are there enough players wanting female Space Marines for it to be worth GW putting female heads in future kits (or, God help us, remaking all the existing SM kits to have female heads), as opposed to the people wanting female SMs just converting their own via appropriate head-swaps?

It seems that a simple head sprue for FSM would have a similar impact as the Captain Marvel movie in regards to female representation worldwide... So probably yes.

 vipoid wrote:

Given that there are plethoras of female head-swaps available elsewhere, it seems anyone desperately wanting female Space Marines is hardly without options

I used to think that this was enough, but now I just want GW to make it official. The reason is the bizarre amount of hostility topic receives. Like I literally cannot post that I posted in this thread into one of the biggest marine groups on FB, because it would get swarmed by hate and then mods would delete it. Having GW to say, 'yeah, you can canonically do that' would help.

Also, if you want to stick to official GW products (like you need to play in GW store that doesn't allow third party or something) then there aren't that many options for marine-sized female heads. (SoB heads look weird for example, they're too small.)

Vatsetis wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Very well, let me phrase it differently - are there enough players wanting female Space Marines for it to be worth GW putting female heads in future kits (or, God help us, remaking all the existing SM kits to have female heads), as opposed to the people wanting female SMs just converting their own via appropriate head-swaps?

It seems that a simple head sprue for FSM would have a similar impact as the Captain Marvel movie in regards to female representation worldwide... So probably yes.

What was the impact? I'm genuinely asking here.

Crimson wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Given that there are plethoras of female head-swaps available elsewhere, it seems anyone desperately wanting female Space Marines is hardly without options

I used to think that this was enough, but now I just want GW to make it official. The reason is the bizarre amount of hostility topic receives. Like I literally cannot post that I posted in this thread into one of the biggest marine groups on FB, because it would get swarmed by hate and then mods would delete it. Having GW to say, 'yeah, you can canonically do that' would help.

Also, if you want to stick to official GW products (like you need to play in GW store that doesn't allow third party or something) then there aren't that many options for marine-sized female heads. (SoB heads look weird for example, they're too small.)

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

A lot of the hate female SM and the hobbyists that make them get relies on "that's not canon" as a justification. The idea would hopefully be that if GW takes away the justification, and it becomes harder for people to accept the point of view of hateful people. This is wishful thinking because there isn't any data to base this theory off for obvious reasons.

Deadnight wrote:
Saw this 'not-reiver' recently.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944

That model on its own sold me on the idea female astartes can work, even if it leans towards more 'realistic than 'heroic' scale. Graceful, athletic and strong, yet feminine. Reminds me of most of the ladies I crossfitted with.

Imo, headswaps and keep everything the same is intellectually lazy. If you're adding females to the range, I think it's a bit insulting to the idea to ignore everything that makes them female.

And no, I'm.not talking boobplate and corsets, but I do think there should be at least one pun based on a model armed with 'power heels'. I saw someone use the term 'subdued femininity' and its something I tend to agree with. Look at stormcast and there is an obvious but aesthetically small difference between them. And it's 'tasteful'. Other examples from pp include the precursor knights and trencher long gunners where the kits have male and female troopers. You can't really tell the difference from a distance but they're there.

Doesnt need much. Softer facial features, more angled chin, not square, a bit more of a feminine shape at hips and chest breastplate without leaning towards boobplate and a feminine 'looking' haircut like a mohawk/ponytail/undercut would be ideal.

I would lean towards a new phobos armed unit to introduce them, as that's how gw seems to work these days. I like the notion of leaning towards thematicly empowered female characters like artemis/diana or else historical shield maidens, mythological valkyriea as to inspire their tactical role.

But yeah, purely from a modelling pov, lots of interesting projects and themes come to mind. Honestly, the idea excites me.

There is nothing feminine about that model though. It is a female space marine done right - it looks basically exactly like a "male" space marine with a ponytail - put a bald head on it with some wires coming out of the neck to the bionic eye...now all the sudden it looks more masculine.

put whatever heads you want on your models ladies and gents...IMO they should all be wearing helmets anyways...the 40k battlefield is quite noxious.