Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Rihgu wrote:

I can't define what a woman is for you, but I can tell you that (human) females are members of of the human race who are born of XX chromosomes and have reproductive organ capable of giving birth to an offspring.

Uhhh, not quite there. For example, there are humans born of XX chromosomes that don't have reproductive organs capable of giving birth to an offspring that would conventionally be called and may even identify as female/women.

Touche. I did fall short on that point.

I limited my definition to 'assigned gender' only.

 Gert wrote:
Manchu, do you have proof that people aren't harassed online for posting female SM?

I’ve been a moderator here for over a decade. I have seen and dealt with all of this stuff for ages. Even before I was a moderator, one of my first big debates on this site was about female SMs. This wealth of experience has shown me that people generally do not get harassed for sharing their hobby projects, all else being equal. Conversely, people do get caught up in highly acrimonious online fights around abstract discussions like this one, and no doubt some of them feel that they are the victims of harassment (and maybe they truly are) without thinking carefully about how their own participation might feel like harassment to others.

The surest cure for it all is to drop the hypothetical debate and get down to actually doing hobby activities. Build an actual army. Write some actual fluff. Good luck getting ANY feedback, TBH. If only people’s hobby blogs got as much attention as this stupid thread.

Want female SMs? Go make them! No one can stop you! If you do a good job, there is a better chance others will like them, too, rather than dislike them. But it doesn’t really matter what others think one way or the other.

Want everyone to agree with you? That’s a different issue and not something any of us are entitled to.

 skchsan wrote:
I can't define what a woman is for you, but I can tell you that (human) females are members of of the human race who are born of XX chromosomes and have reproductive organ capable of giving birth to an offspring.

Having boobs and pretty face and slender body does NOT define what a female is.

Agreed, biology.

@sgt Smudge

So there's really no difference between genders at all in your opinion. They can be anything at any time.

Deadnight wrote:
Here's the thing.

I'm a big fan of corvus beli's infinity models. Pan-o has a lot of religious crusader/ knights templar themed power armoured troops. They're mixed gender whilst still adhering to the broad themes of the knightly orders. Look at the brotherhood of steel in fallout. They have female 'knights'. Look at starship troopers. It's always 'sir'.

Admittedly, 40k has different mood music. Its darker and grittier and dirtier. Older too. Industrial metal versus synth.The Imperium is a horrible, fascist dystopia. One 'modern' twist to the formula of one part of it doesn't unmake that formula or reduce or change the sheer horribleness of the setting. It just means everyone gets their hands dirty. It doesn't unmade an eternity of war and futility or change the mood music of the setting.

As folks say, you can do whatever you want. And you can. Hell, I just converted my justiciar to be walking a bulldog on a lead. People love it. Even though it is firmly based in 'silly', I get zero hate. I guess 'humour' and animal sentimentality gives me a get out of jail free card to step all over the lore for this? I just wish the lore in this case was more open ended, since you can do anything else with SMs, and folks who want to do fsms had something in the lore that would allow them to create the projects they want without the associated negativity that always comes their way - and fsm generates way more heat than almost anything else. Give the haters less ammo.

Funny you should mention Infinity because they removed the male order of Knights known as Father Knights and replaced them with Knights of Justice. It was not a good change, if for no other reason than all the male Knights are now OOP and the only one left is a female swinging her weapon in a very girly anime pose.

And as someone who now has 4 Infinity sectorials the lore is the worst part of the game. It's just bland.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

skchsan wrote:I can't define what a woman is for you, but I can tell you that (human) females are members of of the human race who are born of XX chromosomes and have reproductive organ capable of giving birth to an offspring.

Having boobs and pretty face and slender body does NOT define what a female is.

Agreed with the latter, but I also have to disagree with the "reproductive organ capable of giving birth to offspring."
Infertility doesn't preclude someone's sex.

Just a note.

Tiberias wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
You are right of course I deeply apologize. High ranking necrons can have genders which could possibly be grounds for sexism and inequality and representation issues, so let me correct myself. Let's make an end times event where the Tyranids win and remain the only faction left. So players have to play different asexual gribblies that eat each other....we have now achieved maximum inclusion and everyone will be happy. Lore wouldn't be an issue in this case like you surely demonstrated.

Are you aware you're basically making the same joke that Michael Scott did in an early episode of the office about diversity? And that the meta joke 15 years ago was that the joke had been stale for a decade?

I was a teenager making hyperbolic jokes about political correctness 25 years ago.

Get a new joke.

Now wait a second, I thought lore consistency and continuity does not matter and old lore has no bearing on new lore whatsoever. So what's wrong with my proposition? I'm just asking for logical consistency here.

Because you're being deliberately hyperbolic and inflammatory.

Don't play coy.

Just because you don't like my idea, doesn't mean it's not worth implementing. I'm just using the same logic you did when you argued that lore consistency and continuity is not as important as inclusion.
My idea would solve the perceived problem for sure, also what's the problem with Tyranids? Just because they are non human aliens, doesn't mean they can't be the face of the setting.

Edit: after all it's just a fantasy setting and lore can be written in any way, doesn't make it worse, right?

Manchu wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Manchu, do you have proof that people aren't harassed online for posting female SM?

I’ve been a moderator here for over a decade. I have seen and dealt with all of this stuff for ages. Even before I was a moderator, one of my first big debates on this site was about female SMs. This wealth of experience has shown me that people generally do not get harassed for sharing their hobby projects, all else being equal.

So what are you saying about the examples of ones where they have been harassed?

and no doubt some of them feel that they are the victims of harassment (and maybe they truly are) without thinking carefully about how their own participation might feel like harassment to others.

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Want female SMs? Go make them! No one can stop you! If you do a good job, there is a hood chance others will like them, too. But it doesn’t really matter what others think one way or the other.

But surely if some topics are gaining more... incendiary comments, shall we say, than others, shouldn't something done about that?

Irkjoe wrote:@sgt Smudge

So there's really no difference between genders at all in your opinion. They can be anything at any time.

Genders? Yes, absolutely. Gender is a spectrum, and you choose where you fall on it, depending on the traits that you feel you exhibit/resonate with. It's as simple as that.

I'm rather happy with my gender, personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:Just because you don't like my idea, doesn't mean it's not worth implementing.

It's not that I don't like your idea. It's that your idea is completely and utterly missing the trees for the forest, and most likely deliberately misrepresentative of both my own comments, and the real world.

I'm just using the same logic you did when you argued that lore consistency and continuity is not as important as inclusion.

You're right. But guess what - your solution wasn't inclusive. It was *reductive*.

My idea would solve the perceived problem for sure

It absolutely wouldn't, but you know that.

Edit: after all it's just a fantasy setting and lore can be written in any way, doesn't make it worse, right?

Actually, that's a pretty major misunderstanding of my points about the ephemerality of lore.

Lore can be whatever it is. You just need to be able to justify *why* it is, and *what* that adds that determines its necessity and value.

Can you justify yours?

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Because even when people think they are being polite, they end up posting things like “in a sane world, everyone would agree with me” — indicating that people who don’t are insane. This isn’t done out of malice. It just goes to how on topics about what GW “should do” people tend to think their own opinions are obviously correct and that the fact that there are any others is outrageous to some degree.

Sure I can: the Tyranids are arguably the most successful species in 40k right now, so it's not that far of that they win.
Also it's about time that a non humanoid species becomes the front runner in a major scifi setting. Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric. Cause again, as one of your main points before was: lore consistency and continuity doesn't matter.

This is my main issue by the way. In a vaccum I couldn't care less if marines are depicted as male or female. But lore consistency matters

 Manchu wrote:

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Because even when people think they are being polite, they end up posting things like “in a sane world, everyone would agree with me” — indicating that people who don’t are insane. This isn’t done out of malice. It just goes to how on topics about what GW “should do” people tend to think their own opinions are obviously correct and that the fact that there are any others is outrageous to some degree.

My bad, I think I misread what you said about "participation" - I thought you were saying that just posting women Space Marines could feel like harassment, and that very much confused me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:
Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric.

Ah yes, because comparing women to a fictional alien hive mind race is a fair comparison /s

Cause again, as one of your main points before was: lore consistency and continuity doesn't matter.

You literally don't have a clue what my point is, do you?

@Manchu
I've never seen a Grizzly Bear but I can say with some certainty they exist since others have seen Grizzly Bears and recorded their existence.
You're a moderator on one website and are saying that nobody ever gets harassing messages when they make female SM. Do you check everyone's PM's to see if there are people sending harassing messages? What about Twitter/Reddit/Instagram PM's? You have taken your personal experience and extrapolated that onto the entire community. Posters have given examples of either themselves or others receiving harassing messages but since you personally have never seen any, then it doesn't happen.

Dakka's definitely one of the friendlier, less toxic places on the internet to talk about warhammer. Even though I'm sure it doesn't feel that way sometimes if you're a mod here!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Because even when people think they are being polite, they end up posting things like “in a sane world, everyone would agree with me” — indicating that people who don’t are insane. This isn’t done out of malice. It just goes to how on topics about what GW “should do” people tend to think their own opinions are obviously correct and that the fact that there are any others is outrageous to some degree.

My bad, I think I misread what you said about "participation" - I thought you were saying that just posting women Space Marines could feel like harassment, and that very much confused me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:
Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric.

Ah yes, because comparing women to a fictional alien hive mind race is a fair comparison /s

Cause again, as one of your main points before was: lore consistency and continuity doesn't matter.

You literally don't have a clue what my point is, do you?

Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind, which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

Tiberias wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Because even when people think they are being polite, they end up posting things like “in a sane world, everyone would agree with me” — indicating that people who don’t are insane. This isn’t done out of malice. It just goes to how on topics about what GW “should do” people tend to think their own opinions are obviously correct and that the fact that there are any others is outrageous to some degree.

My bad, I think I misread what you said about "participation" - I thought you were saying that just posting women Space Marines could feel like harassment, and that very much confused me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:
Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric.

Ah yes, because comparing women to a fictional alien hive mind race is a fair comparison /s

Cause again, as one of your main points before was: lore consistency and continuity doesn't matter.

You literally don't have a clue what my point is, do you?

Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind, which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

He did the same with me. I tried making a point that if the fluff could be that readily changed, then it should be fine making everyone a squig. He decided that meant that I thought women are comparable to squigs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Because even when people think they are being polite, they end up posting things like “in a sane world, everyone would agree with me” — indicating that people who don’t are insane. This isn’t done out of malice. It just goes to how on topics about what GW “should do” people tend to think their own opinions are obviously correct and that the fact that there are any others is outrageous to some degree.

My bad, I think I misread what you said about "participation" - I thought you were saying that just posting women Space Marines could feel like harassment, and that very much confused me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:
Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric.

Ah yes, because comparing women to a fictional alien hive mind race is a fair comparison /s

Cause again, as one of your main points before was: lore consistency and continuity doesn't matter.

You literally don't have a clue what my point is, do you?

Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind, which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

He did the same with me. I tried making a point that if the fluff could be that readily changed, then it should be fine making everyone a squig. He decided that meant that I thought women are squigs.

Hence why I called him out on being intellectually dishonest in the other thread, there were other examples as well in there. At least in this conversation and topic. I am not implying that he always argues this way in every topic, that would be unfair.

Tiberias wrote:Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind

No, you just happened to pitch the Hive Mind using the same terms I did to pitch the importance of women Astartes.

The difference is that women are real. Tyranids aren't.

which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

This isn't about "lore consistency or continuity" though. This is about how apparently making every faction Tyranids would solve all the problems in the community.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

As I just said - the fact that you're acting like making all factions Tyranids would fix every problem in the hobby, which is very clearly a reductionist take on how adding women Astartes would *help* make women feel more welcome, and *help* in removing the all-male stigma.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:He did the same with me.

"He" didn't do anything.

I tried making a point that if the fluff could be that readily changed, then it should be fine making everyone a squig. He decided that meant that I thought women are comparable to squigs.

Play stupid reductio-ad-absurdam games, get stupid prizes, I suppose.

Obviously there's a difference between changing the fluff to include *women* as opposed to changing it to include *squigs*. Or am I dealing with actual children here?

And also, "he" said nothing.

Tiberias wrote:Hence why I called him out on being intellectually dishonest in the other thread, there were other examples as well in there.

You named none of those examples, of which there were many apparently? You didn't name one.

At least in this conversation and topic. I am not implying that he always argues this way in every topic, that would be unfair.

"He" doesn't argue this way in any topic.

Both of you, maybe turn your sigs on, or read my previous comments. I'm getting real damn tired of this.

"Stop thinking you can solve women's problems" is the point he's making.

Stop assuming every women in this world are damsel in distress awaiting your rescue.

If an individual fitting your definition of woman wants to get into this hobby, she will do it with or without your "assistance".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tiberias wrote:Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind

No, you just happened to pitch the Hive Mind using the same terms I did to pitch the importance of women Astartes.

The difference is that women are real. Tyranids aren't.

which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

This isn't about "lore consistency or continuity" though. This is about how apparently making every faction Tyranids would solve all the problems in the community.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

As I just said - the fact that you're acting like making all factions Tyranids would fix every problem in the hobby, which is very clearly a reductionist take on how adding women Astartes would *help* make women feel more welcome, and *help* in removing the all-male stigma.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:He did the same with me.

"He" didn't do anything.

I tried making a point that if the fluff could be that readily changed, then it should be fine making everyone a squig. He decided that meant that I thought women are comparable to squigs.

Play stupid reductio-ad-absurdam games, get stupid prizes, I suppose.

Obviously there's a difference between changing the fluff to include *women* as opposed to changing it to include *squigs*. Or am I dealing with actual children here?

And also, "he" said nothing.

Tiberias wrote:Hence why I called him out on being intellectually dishonest in the other thread, there were other examples as well in there.

You named none of those examples, of which there were many apparently? You didn't name one.

At least in this conversation and topic. I am not implying that he always argues this way in every topic, that would be unfair.

"He" doesn't argue this way in any topic.

Both of you, maybe turn your sigs on, or read my previous comments. I'm getting real damn tired of this.

All things aside did I use a wrong word addressing you? I'm not a native speaker, so I'm sorry if I missed any clues regarding this.

Edit: female astartes are not needed to make women feel welcome in the hobby, decent people interacting with them are needed. What does that have to do with the lore?

Please folks, cool off a bit. This is the sort of stuff that gets threads locked. We've done well to keep things pretty civil up to now, take a step back and stop riling each other up.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Why would participation feel like harassment?

Because even when people think they are being polite, they end up posting things like “in a sane world, everyone would agree with me” — indicating that people who don’t are insane. This isn’t done out of malice. It just goes to how on topics about what GW “should do” people tend to think their own opinions are obviously correct and that the fact that there are any others is outrageous to some degree.

My bad, I think I misread what you said about "participation" - I thought you were saying that just posting women Space Marines could feel like harassment, and that very much confused me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:
Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric.

Ah yes, because comparing women to a fictional alien hive mind race is a fair comparison /s

Cause again, as one of your main points before was: lore consistency and continuity doesn't matter.

You literally don't have a clue what my point is, do you?

Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind, which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

He did the same with me. I tried making a point that if the fluff could be that readily changed, then it should be fine making everyone a squig. He decided that meant that I thought women are comparable to squigs.

But it's self evident that the fluff can be 'that easily changed'. GW have done it and continue to do so. There's no debate about whether it happens, because it factually evidentiarily has and continues to every edition. The indomitus crusade was retconned only within a few years of being created!

The idea that marines are only male is some holy inviable writ of background is a subjective nonsense being perpetuated as some kind of objective truth to protect it ever changing.


The primaris marines are a bigger change to lore than marines recruiting from all of the imperium rather than one side of it. Primarchs becoming immortal giants whose relics couldn't possibly fit on the bodies of the marines who wear/carry them in 40k is a bigger retcon.

Using genetic manipulation and organ transplantation on non male humans in 40k is a trivial difference in comparison to the complete retconn of the Necrontyr (every other form of genetic manipulation/body horror/augmentation is performed on women from servitors to princeps). It's smaller than orks going from marsupial sexually reproducing organisms to fungal/algae lichen hybrids that grow in the ground.

The argument from sacred fluff is no argument at all and GW has proven that with 34 years of continuous retconns of small and large scale. There is no argument to be had here, except that GW retconns and as soon as they do it becomes sacred fluff until they retconn it again and THAT becomes sacred. This argument is an autonomous goal post moving system...


Your point is a combination of ad absurdum and appeal to tradition fallacies.

Tiberias wrote:

Spoiler:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tiberias wrote:Jeez you really like to paint people in a certain light. I didn't compare women to the hive mind

No, you just happened to pitch the Hive Mind using the same terms I did to pitch the importance of women Astartes.

The difference is that women are real. Tyranids aren't.

which is a ridiculous accusation in the first place, I made a point that if lore consistency and continuity does not matter then all bets are off and my proposition is as valid as yours.

This isn't about "lore consistency or continuity" though. This is about how apparently making every faction Tyranids would solve all the problems in the community.

So what is your point exactly? I'm dying to know since you still haven't answered me as to what problem exactly we are trying to address here.

As I just said - the fact that you're acting like making all factions Tyranids would fix every problem in the hobby, which is very clearly a reductionist take on how adding women Astartes would *help* make women feel more welcome, and *help* in removing the all-male stigma.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:He did the same with me.

"He" didn't do anything.

I tried making a point that if the fluff could be that readily changed, then it should be fine making everyone a squig. He decided that meant that I thought women are comparable to squigs.

Play stupid reductio-ad-absurdam games, get stupid prizes, I suppose.

Obviously there's a difference between changing the fluff to include *women* as opposed to changing it to include *squigs*. Or am I dealing with actual children here?

And also, "he" said nothing.

Tiberias wrote:Hence why I called him out on being intellectually dishonest in the other thread, there were other examples as well in there.

You named none of those examples, of which there were many apparently? You didn't name one.

At least in this conversation and topic. I am not implying that he always argues this way in every topic, that would be unfair.

"He" doesn't argue this way in any topic.

Both of you, maybe turn your sigs on, or read my previous comments. I'm getting real damn tired of this.

All things aside did I use a wrong word addressing you? I'm not a native speaker, so I'm sorry if I missed any clues regarding this.

Edit: female astartes are not needed to make women feel welcome in the hobby, decent people interacting with them are needed. What does that have to do with the lore?

Their signature notes "they/them" as their preferred pronouns. It is one of the problems with speaking via text in only small snippets combined with the "default" in most places just being assumed to be he/him. I know of a few forums that let you place preferred gender tags, but otherwise it is usually a guessing game and people go to the above mentioned default.

Tiberias wrote:
Who says you can't identify yourself with the hive mind. Doesn't always have to be human centric.

Pointing out that it's generally more difficult for people to identify with a faction that holds values that are alien to them is an interesting way to own the people arguing that half the human population shouldn't be barred from representation in half the armies and model releases in the game.

Representation doesn't matter, that's why the most popular factions within essentially any game with a role-playing element are those factions that have appearances, morals, personalities and motivations that most closely resemble the people playing them at any given gak wait no

 kurhanik wrote:

Their signature notes "they/them" as their preferred pronouns. It is one of the problems with speaking via text in only small snippets combined with the "default" in most places just being assumed to be he/him. I know of a few forums that let you place preferred gender tags, but otherwise it is usually a guessing game and people go to the above mentioned default.

I just call everyone 'they' online these days. It's gender neutral so should work for everyone.

-removed-

skchsan wrote:"Stop thinking you can solve women's problems" is the point he's making.

Stop assuming every women in this world are damsel in distress awaiting your rescue.

If an individual fitting your definition of woman wants to get into this hobby, she will do it with or without your "assistance".

I don't think anyone's doing this for "damsel in distress" points. They're doing this because they're sick and tired of people's models being treated as inferior for having a different head. They're doing this because their friends and loved ones have been made to feel like they don't belong in this hobby. They're doing this for more than "aw jeez, let me white knight for you".

Tiberias wrote:All things aside did I use a wrong word addressing you? I'm not a native speaker, so I'm sorry if I missed any clues regarding this.

I am not a "he". My pronouns are they/them - I've put them in my signature, but if you missed that, then I'm happy to mention it now. I have mentioned it several times previously, however.

I do appreciate the apology.

Edit: female astartes are not needed to make women feel welcome in the hobby, decent people interacting with them are needed. What does that have to do with the lore?

Because it's the "un"-decent people who use the lore as a weapon to exclude people - such as what happened with Crimson.
I totally agree that women Astartes *alone* don't fix the problem, but they do make a start, and are a sign of "we'd rather include you and encourage you to enjoy things" instead of "suck it up buttercup, that's the lore and it won't change".

Goose LeChance wrote:


Funny you should mention Infinity because they removed the male order of Knights known as Father Knights and replaced them with Knights of Justice. It was not a good change, if for no other reason than all the male Knights are now OOP and the only one left is a female swinging her weapon in a very girly anime pose.

And as someone who now has 4 Infinity sectorials the lore is the worst part of the game. It's just bland.

Infinity Lore is all over the place... The core ia serious and has a lot of interesting ideas... But its also full of cheeky fluff.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Edit: female astartes are not needed to make women feel welcome in the hobby, decent people interacting with them are needed. What does that have to do with the lore?

Because it's the "un"-decent people who use the lore as a weapon to exclude people - such as what happened with Crimson.
I totally agree that women Astartes *alone* don't fix the problem, but they do make a start, and are a sign of "we'd rather include you and encourage you to enjoy things" instead of "suck it up buttercup, that's the lore and it won't change".

GW has already shown off female Stormcasts, Imperial Guardswomen and are giving Sisters of Battle much more of a spotlight. How is that not a start? If there were literally no women in the setting at all you'd have a point, but there seems to be quite a bit without the Astarte's help.

I'm not sure making FSM canon will remove the harassment problem; if people want to harass they will harass, even if it is canon. Which is certainly dreadful, but that is how people are, unfortunately. It might even result in more harassment, as there would be an increase of bad blood, similar to the contempt for AoS. The problem isn't a lack of FSM, the problem are anti-social jerks. What you are proposing is a band-aid over gangrenous leg. It ignores a deeper problem.

Fun fact, again, to prove how little you know of what you spoke about with such certainties: XX and XY do not determine the sex. There are female XY and male XX...

So, even under the current lore, a person with XX chromosomes can became a Marine (because the process description talk about "male tissues" - that do not exist - and hormones - which are synthetic anyway).

And I love the fact that we're back at "donkey-caves are the problem, not what gives them credibility". Which could even be acceptable, if the only solution would be a gender-swap of the line of such drastical measure. But we're talking about more options, so it's indefensible.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What you are proposing is a band-aid over gangrenous leg. It ignores a deeper problem.

It's an antibiotic, though, because those gangrenous elements then can no longer use one of their vectors of infection to destroy healthy tissue. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good here; It would do good.

 Manchu wrote:
And I haven’t heard anything much from Doc since those days,

My understanding of it was that between the collapse of TPC and being harassed here, he packed it in.

I tried to get ahold of him a while ago when I saw someone producing the Black Widows commercially, but wasn't able to reach him.


And it wasn't the only one I can think of, but it is the only one I can remember the guys name. We had a few incidents on Dark Reign where the ban hammer was dropped over harassing DMs due to female space marines, and I can remember one that I talked to Brimmy over at Whineseer about back in the day.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Edit: female astartes are not needed to make women feel welcome in the hobby, decent people interacting with them are needed. What does that have to do with the lore?

Because it's the "un"-decent people who use the lore as a weapon to exclude people - such as what happened with Crimson.
I totally agree that women Astartes *alone* don't fix the problem, but they do make a start, and are a sign of "we'd rather include you and encourage you to enjoy things" instead of "suck it up buttercup, that's the lore and it won't change".

GW has already shown off female Stormcasts, Imperial Guardswomen and are giving Sisters of Battle much more of a spotlight. How is that not a start? If there were literally no women in the setting at all you'd have a point, but there seems to be quite a bit without the Astarte's help.

That's a fair point, but it still does kinda built to this "oh, we're fine with women, but not in this spotlight role!" It very much feels like lore>welcoming people at certain times. I'd know, because I used to do that, and I'm not proud of it.

Stormcast are really what I'm thinking of for this, basically (well, not so much the specialised armour, I could do without that, personally).

I'm not sure making FSM canon will remove the harassment problem; if people want to harass they will harass, even if it is canon. Which is certainly dreadful, but that is how people are, unfortunately. It might even result in more harassment, as there would be an increase of bad blood, similar to the contempt for AoS. The problem isn't a lack of FSM, the problem are anti-social jerks. What you are proposing is a band-aid over gangrenous leg. It ignores a deeper problem.

This is also true, but I prefer to see this not as the band aid over the gangrenous leg, but more the cleaning it and preparing it for treatment, if you get the metaphor? I'm under no illusions that this would solve everything, I'm not *that* naive, but I do think it would help - not to mention it just being pretty cool overall if there didn't feel like a hurdle to get non-masculine presenting models in power armour.

I think we're all agreed the problem is anti-social jerks, but can we not get rid of some of their ammunition, and leave the door a bit wider for people?