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2021/07/15 07:40:22
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Tiberias wrote: I do not fully understand that comic I'll be totally honest. If this is about people complaining that hobbyists kitbashed their space marines with female heads then let me get one thing straight: nobody has the right to tell you what you do with your models or how you enjoy the hobby (well except if you start throwing your models at people, but you get my point).
BUT and this has been discusses ad nauseam: official lore consistency and continuity matters, this is my whole gripe with this thing. Lore can be changed by GW at a whim, but that does not mean it would be a logically consistent change regarding the already existing story line. If the position is valid that lore consistency is not as important as inclusivity, then my purposefully ridiculous proposition that we could just as well end up with nothing but genderless tyranids to eliminate sexism is also valid.
Then use the new creation of primaris marines, a massive shift in the lore and and add it to that. There, logical and continuous.
2021/07/15 07:46:30
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Sim-Life wrote: What proof do they have that that is the case?
To be clear, none.
Even if it doesn’t add new players would it be a bad thing, if it only added a few would that be bad? If it just makes it a nicer place for the few women in the hobby, is that so bad?
The truth is it would do ZERO harm. None at all
, if you are a remotely decent, empathetic, even slightly unselfish person,
Spoiler:
you would easily see that this small thing would not make you day any worse at all, would not stop you from painting, collecting and playing with your toy soldiers in any way you saw fit. You as an existing player would not be affected at all except to have some more options, but a new person might not be put off by the boys only mentality demonstrated here, not just women, anyone.
So that’s the ask here, make a change that has zero negative impact, but a potential positive one.
do you think that implying people are the opposite to this for having a different opinion is maybe the reason these topics get heated
Tiberias wrote: I do not fully understand that comic I'll be totally honest. If this is about people complaining that hobbyists kitbashed their space marines with female heads then let me get one thing straight: nobody has the right to tell you what you do with your models or how you enjoy the hobby (well except if you start throwing your models at people, but you get my point).
BUT and this has been discusses ad nauseam: official lore consistency and continuity matters, this is my whole gripe with this thing. Lore can be changed by GW at a whim, but that does not mean it would be a logically consistent change regarding the already existing story line. If the position is valid that lore consistency is not as important as inclusivity, then my purposefully ridiculous proposition that we could just as well end up with nothing but genderless tyranids to eliminate sexism is also valid.
Then use the new creation of primaris marines, a massive shift in the lore and and add it to that. There, logical and continuous.
Yeah, people reacted really, really poorly to that shift in lore. Why? Because it introduced a deus ex machina in the form of cawl who waved his magic wand and poof: primaris. All because GW was too cowardly to just scale the old marines right.
Imo this actually reinforces my point: GW introduced a massive change of lore out of nothing that was not logically consistent with how the lore had been presented at large since 2nd edition and people really did not like it (the lore not the models, those were/are popular).
So my point stands: lore consistency matters.
Or how about the mother of idiotic lore desicions that werent logically consistent with decades of previous lore and also terribly realized: blowing up the old warhammer world and pulling the horrendous new lore for AoS out of their butts. People reacted really badly to this and rightly so.
Edit: if lore consistency and continuity does not matter, then blowing up the old warhammer fantasy world is completely valid and just new lore that is as valid as the decades of old lore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 07:53:21
2021/07/15 07:56:08
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
It is simply untrue that adding female space marines has zero negative impact.
Lore should be consistent, it shouldn't just be changed on a whim.
The fact that GW does change it on a whim is immaterial to the fact that they shouldn't.
As such, retconning the lore IS in and of itself a negative impact.
It's as simple as that really.
I would also go as far as to say the positive impact of adding female space marines is slim to none.
There's been a lengthy discussion on why there are so few female wargamers in the Off-Topic forum, "I'm not allowed female space marines" was not high on the reasons given by disinterested female partners/friends.
Women are deciding 40k isn't for them long before they find out female space marines aren't canon.
Further, no one's actually prevented from female space marines. You're free to model and fluff them yourself in whatever way you see fit.
Tales of community outcry and death threats are greatly exaggerated. I have seen several female space marine armies shared on Facebook groups over the years and comments are always generally positive.
Negative comments are in the minority, offensive comments are in even smaller minority and generally the result of mutual escalation by both sides.
Quite frankly this is a bogeyman that doesn't really need slaying because it's not there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 07:57:28
2021/07/15 08:08:58
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Kiro sums it all up very nicely and I will only echo JoeRugby’s point that, once again, this always seems to return to setting up the false dilemma that anyone who agrees with the points Kiro makes is insane or hateful, etc, etc.
It all just unravels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 08:10:36
The lore changes, the primaris change that is being suggested was bad and negative has had no negative impact in the size of the hobby or the profits of GW. I presume you are still playing? At least engaged enough to be on here discussing it all. Everything survived, all still good and more people than ever involved.
I am not arguing for a retcon. Just an update. You might not believe that abuse and threats happen but I know they do, I have received them myself.
2021/07/15 08:11:48
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
2021/07/15 08:16:53
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Andykp wrote: The lore changes, the primaris change that is being suggested was bad and negative has had no negative impact in the size of the hobby or the profits of GW. I presume you are still playing? At least engaged enough to be on here discussing it all. Everything survived, all still good and more people than ever involved.
I am not arguing for a retcon. Just an update. You might not believe that abuse and threats happen but I know they do, I have received them myself.
Because new shiny models drive sales more than the negative impact of bad lore changes might dampen sales. That does not mean changing lore on a whim is a good idea or good for the setting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 08:17:31
2021/07/15 08:19:12
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Andykp wrote: The lore changes, the primaris change that is being suggested was bad and negative has had no negative impact in the size of the hobby or the profits of GW. I presume you are still playing? At least engaged enough to be on here discussing it all. Everything survived, all still good and more people than ever involved.
I am not arguing for a retcon. Just an update. You might not believe that abuse and threats happen but I know they do, I have received them myself.
Because new shiny models drive sales more than the negative impact of bad lore changes might dampen sales. That does not mean changing lore on a whim is a good idea or good for the setting.
This.
Also we don't really have the hard numbers on their sales.
Combine that with their kinda "monopolistic" position and you can assume that less sales generated more profit from pricehikes and lore fauxpas.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2021/07/15 08:22:45
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
I mean honestly, nobody can look me in the eye and seriously suggest that the transition from warhammer fantasy to end times and then AOS was handled well regarding the lore (and basically everything else).
That is a prime example of changing lore on a whim and replacing it in record speed in the hopes of that part of the IP pulling better sales numbers again. If lore consistency and continuity does not matter then this crap was totally valid, it was just new lore.
2021/07/15 08:42:18
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Tiberias wrote: I mean honestly, nobody can look me in the eye and seriously suggest that the transition from warhammer fantasy to end times and then AOS was handled well regarding the lore (and basically everything else).
That is a prime example of changing lore on a whim and replacing it in record speed in the hopes of that part of the IP pulling better sales numbers again. If lore consistency and continuity does not matter then this crap was totally valid, it was just new lore.
That is what kept me away from AOS since its release, its not a bad ruleset (now), the models are really nice and still I just cannot take the plunge as I still have a bad taste left in my mouth from the end times, I want to play my dwarfs, not dispossessed or whatever they are called now, they broke my connection to the background and by doing that broke my interest for the foreseeable future.
2021/07/15 08:45:12
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
As such, retconning the lore IS in and of itself a negative impact.
It's as simple as that really.
.
Adding something as a part of an ongoing narrative is not, however, a retcon.
Many many people here have said the opposite when they declare that GW has reconned the lore over the last 30+ years many times, I agree with you that filling in the blanks and expanding the lore is not a retcon unless it directly goes back and changes things to "have always been this way" like Newcrons being a retcon but the Horus Heresy series being an expansion of the setting.
the 40k setting over the last 30 years has been remarkably consistent with the main details especially after 3rd, more so than other IPs like Star Wars, Battletech, Marvel and DC
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 08:56:01
2021/07/15 08:52:34
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Tiberias wrote: I am sorry, but I still do not buy into the idea that female marines are needed to make women feel welcome in the hobby. As I said, decent people are needed.
There is no denying that there are some douchebags in this our hobby, but I am not convinced that this is a widespread epidemic of sexism in the 40k hobby that warrants immediate action. There are the occasional asshats in absolutely every hobby.
I would like to propose another question though: is it permissible in this day and age to have a setting like 40k where there are male only subfactions like space marines and custodes for example. Is the current zeitgeist truly that to combat real life sexism, we need close to 50/50 representation in every aspect of every fictional setting? I know that space marines are the most prominent faction in 40k, but the point still stands: can there be male only things left? I am genuinely asking, because if the answer is no, then I find that position a bit dogmatic and if the answer is yes, then why can't it be space marines in 40k?
It's about inclusivity. I used to see this happen a lot in RPGs where 'for authenticity' the DM would deliberately be racist and sexist to PCs. It's about women not turning around and finding themselves excluded in entertainment wherever they look. About not treating femaleness as a feature to add to the default male, about entertainment being a space that is available to all.
I does no harm to the lore - in fact I'd argue it makes it make more sense. Because developing genetic engineering to only work on one half of the population is more difficult than it being universally applicable.
This comic I always thought summed it up well. When it's everywhere it's the background radiation of your life.
That comic is so unbelievably wrong. You only have to look at the reception of Aquaman, Thor, Captain America, James Bond, as another person put it, romance novels. Twilight is the only example I can think of for that comic.
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
2021/07/15 08:58:07
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
As such, retconning the lore IS in and of itself a negative impact.
It's as simple as that really.
.
Adding something as a part of an ongoing narrative is not, however, a retcon.
That is correct, however it depends on whether the addition contradicts decades of old lore. For example: if we were to say Cawl refined the geneseed process in such a way that aspirants can now be female, my issue with this addition would not be that we now have female aspirants, but rather that after ten thousand years of technological and cultural stagnation (which is actually a big part of imperium lore), Cawl waved his magic wand again.
Edit: kirotheavenger beat my by a couple of minutes....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 08:59:37
2021/07/15 09:04:10
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Of course, they could just be bigoted, sexist and misogynistic.
2021/07/15 09:24:40
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
As such, retconning the lore IS in and of itself a negative impact.
It's as simple as that really.
.
Adding something as a part of an ongoing narrative is not, however, a retcon.
That is correct, however it depends on whether the addition contradicts decades of old lore. For example: if we were to say Cawl refined the geneseed process in such a way that aspirants can now be female, my issue with this addition would not be that we now have female aspirants, but rather that after ten thousand years of technological and cultural stagnation (which is actually a big part of imperium lore), Cawl waved his magic wand again.
Edit: kirotheavenger beat my by a couple of minutes....
Centurions, razorbacks, countless land raider and rhino variants, countless dreadnought variants, thunder canons, servoharneses, marines on wolves, all space marine fliers except thunder hawks, dread knights, fancy dark angels speeders, frost canons, veteran specialist ammunition’s, - all fine technological enhancements without explanation..but don’t change the lore, it’s integral to the whole thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Ruining is such a massive exaggeration, no one is ruining anything and why because you love it should others be excluded or abuse be allowed? Grow up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 09:27:28
2021/07/15 09:28:20
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Yeah, people reacted really, really poorly to that shift in lore. Why? Because it introduced a deus ex machina in the form of cawl who waved his magic wand and poof: primaris. All because GW was too cowardly to just scale the old marines right.
Imo this actually reinforces my point: GW introduced a massive change of lore out of nothing that was not logically consistent with how the lore had been presented at large since 2nd edition and people really did not like it (the lore not the models, those were/are popular).
So my point stands: lore consistency matters.
Or how about the mother of idiotic lore desicions that werent logically consistent with decades of previous lore and also terribly realized: blowing up the old warhammer world and pulling the horrendous new lore for AoS out of their butts. People reacted really badly to this and rightly so.
Edit: if lore consistency and continuity does not matter, then blowing up the old warhammer fantasy world is completely valid and just new lore that is as valid as the decades of old lore.
Do we actually have any proof that the whole primaris thing was universally unpopular? Because people gobbling up every new primaris release for two years like a bag full of dicks tends to imply the opposite.
As for AoS, I can't say if it's more appealing that if WHFB had continued or if it was better to go with AoS. What I can say is that AoS is currently a superior product to 40k.
2021/07/15 09:28:31
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Ruining is such a massive exaggeration, no one is ruining anything and why because you love it should others be excluded or abuse be allowed? Grow up.
theres a lore status quo.
that lore has been quite constant as pointed out above.
Due to that and its popularity due to its nature the universe is liked.
Most people are in it because of that and like it because of that.
In comes you, demands change of the lore for selfish reasons.
And you are now surprised why you get pushback?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/15 09:32:07
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2021/07/15 09:33:04
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Of course, they could just be bigoted, sexist and misogynistic.
Ah the good old "frame the oposition as just being plain bad people" defence. Always a positive addition to a discussion.
2021/07/15 09:33:22
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Of course, they could just be bigoted, sexist and misogynistic.
Not everyone against female space marines is bigoted, sexist, and/or misogynist.
But I certainly know which side of the argument those who are bigoted, sexist, and/or misogynist fall on 100% of the time. If this were real life and a subject more important than toy soldiers, if I found myself on the same side as the above on a social issue, I would definitely take a hard look at my position as I hope anyone would.
2021/07/15 09:33:42
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from. Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself. Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Of course, they could just be bigoted, sexist and misogynistic.
Not everyone against female space marines is bigoted, sexist, and/or misogynist.
But I certainly know which side of the argument those who are bigoted, sexist, and/or misogynist fall on 100% of the time. If this were real life and a subject more important than toy soldiers, if I found myself on the same side as the above on a social issue, I would definitely take a hard look at my position as I hope anyone would.
enforcing dogmatic change for a (supposedly ) greater good and declaring the other side to be full of x doesn't make you actually NOT bigoted either, nor does it put your position into the remotly "greater good" ballpark necessarily. And no, rethoric won't change that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/15 09:41:09
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2021/07/15 09:39:43
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
Yeah, people reacted really, really poorly to that shift in lore. Why? Because it introduced a deus ex machina in the form of cawl who waved his magic wand and poof: primaris. All because GW was too cowardly to just scale the old marines right.
Imo this actually reinforces my point: GW introduced a massive change of lore out of nothing that was not logically consistent with how the lore had been presented at large since 2nd edition and people really did not like it (the lore not the models, those were/are popular).
So my point stands: lore consistency matters.
Or how about the mother of idiotic lore desicions that werent logically consistent with decades of previous lore and also terribly realized: blowing up the old warhammer world and pulling the horrendous new lore for AoS out of their butts. People reacted really badly to this and rightly so.
Edit: if lore consistency and continuity does not matter, then blowing up the old warhammer fantasy world is completely valid and just new lore that is as valid as the decades of old lore.
Do we actually have any proof that the whole primaris thing was universally unpopular? Because people gobbling up every new primaris release for two years like a bag full of dicks tends to imply the opposite.
As for AoS, I can't say if it's more appealing that if WHFB had continued or if it was better to go with AoS. What I can say is that AoS is currently a superior product to 40k.
Again, as I already said: shiny new models drive sales more than bad lore. People disliked the lore, but liked the models because true scale marines are cool.
My point about AoS was not if its the superior product now or if WHFB should have continued, but if lore consistency does not matter, then the transition that happened between WHFB to AoS was valid in how it was handled....it's just new lore.
And how it was handled was objectively bad, I don't think anyone can dispute that. It was an insult to storytelling, good writing, the fanbases intelligence and their wallets.
2021/07/15 09:47:53
Subject: How best to add female space marines - The Lore
kirotheavenger wrote: Totally agree Manchu, I think that's where most of the vitriol from the "no female space marines" crowd comes from.
Being accused of being a bigot/sexist/whatever is never nice and it's easy to get aggressive defending yourself.
Especially when you feel like people are ruining a hobby you deeply love.
Of course, they could just be bigoted, sexist and misogynistic.
Not everyone against female space marines is bigoted, sexist, and/or misogynist.
But I certainly know which side of the argument those who are bigoted, sexist, and/or misogynist fall on 100% of the time.
No you don't. You can make a sexist, misogynist female space marine army.
