Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think that the base size makes that much of a difference, since those units will eventually get to fight. Assuming the squigosaur has the same base size as the nob, it should be big enough to tag two units.

You also need to keep in mind that when you tag a unit of incubi, a unit of bloodbrides, a succubus and Drazahr, you still end up dead when even when they fight last. Same goes for tagging deathshrouds or Mortarion.

Fight last also makes much more of a difference when you are getting charged anyways, as most units you charge are not fighting before you do anyways.

Oh, right! So, the redder squigosaur all the way!

 koooaei wrote:
Oh, right! So, the redder squigosaur all the way!

It could also be funny on a Kill Rig. Not only is their base even bigger, but they also pack a descent punch in close combat too. Plus the speed boost is always interesting.

A kill rig doesn't benefit from LoS, so it can just be shot to bits before it gets anywhere.

Last tournament results.

Flying Monkey: Orkz 4th place finish. 0 Boyz/Beastboyz

Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

Alberta Classic: Orkz 1st and 2nd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 0 units of boyz/beastboyz 2nd Place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

So 5 Ork top 4 finishes since the codex dropped, and 5 units of boyz/beastboyz total....all from the same list

SemperMortis wrote:
Last tournament results.

Flying Monkey: Orkz 4th place finish. 0 Boyz/Beastboyz

Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

Alberta Classic: Orkz 1st and 2nd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 0 units of boyz/beastboyz 2nd Place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

So 5 Ork top 4 finishes since the codex dropped, and 5 units of boyz/beastboyz total....all from the same list

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.

Trukk boyz are currently illegal RAW

Trukk Boyz are 1 per detachment so at best you can get 3 of them so a maximum of 36 boyz in 3 units which cost you 534pts, previously you could footslog 66boyz for that price.

And only 2 trukkboyz units were taken out of 5 armies. Data is still coming in very slowly, but as of right now, I think the only way to make boyz competitive will be as trukk boyz.

Min squads still can run around and perform actions. Not great but hey, we got what we got.

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.

Trukk boyz are currently illegal RAW

Trukk Boyz are 1 per detachment so at best you can get 3 of them so a maximum of 36 boyz in 3 units which cost you 534pts, previously you could footslog 66boyz for that price.

And only 2 trukkboyz units were taken out of 5 armies. Data is still coming in very slowly, but as of right now, I think the only way to make boyz competitive will be as trukk boyz.

There also is no reason to run 12 boyz, so it's more like 30.

From my test games so far, more than two units of trukk boyz also feels like a waste of points, they aren't getting targeted over buggies anyways, and especially against marines you rarely have use for than two units since you can't run them into a brick of terminators, gravis or assault oriented marines (blade guard, outriders, assault intercessors) with any hope of winning against them.
Essentially they are for sneaking up a board edge and taking mission objectives from obsec units and scoring secondaries while doing so.

In any case, boyz+trukk+specialist mob need to compare to kommandoz/storm boyz+gretchin, and it's not looking too good for them.

 Jidmah wrote:


There also is no reason to run 12 boyz, so it's more like 30.

From my test games so far, more than two units of trukk boyz also feels like a waste of points, they aren't getting targeted over buggies anyways, and especially against marines you rarely have use for than two units since you can't run them into a brick of terminators, gravis or assault oriented marines (blade guard, outriders, assault intercessors) with any hope of winning against them.
Essentially they are for sneaking up a board edge and taking mission objectives from obsec units and scoring secondaries while doing so.

In any case, boyz+trukk+specialist mob need to compare to kommandoz/storm boyz+gretchin, and it's not looking too good for them.

Absolutely agree. If i could take MSU boyz as 5 man squads I would to fill my troop choice, otherwise I won't be taking troops for the most part.
*** Insert Kommandos are awesome rant:

The few test games i've managed have highlighted that with the loss of Morale, with the points increase, and with the loss of KFF, boyz are just too flimsy for what they actually accomplish. Its a bit pathetic really, that 5ppm non-obsec grots which have a 7+ are preferable as a troops tax.

SemperMortis wrote:
The few test games i've managed have highlighted that with the loss of Morale, with the points increase, and with the loss of KFF, boyz are just too flimsy for what they actually accomplish. Its a bit pathetic really, that 5ppm non-obsec grots which have a 7+ are preferable as a troops tax.

Gretchin are probably even worse than boyz, but I think the issue is that you can get so many awesome things in the codex right now, that not spending 40 points to "upgrade" gretchin into boyz is the right course of action.

I mean, what would you rather pick for scoring:
1) a unit of trukk boyz(90+70+10 for pk = 170)
2) a unit of gretchin AND one of the following: two units of 5 kommandoz (150 points) OR two units of storm boyz (160 points) OR two units of burnas (160 points) OR a unit of 4 warbikers (150 points)

Looking at current ork lists, the answer is rather clear.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The few test games i've managed have highlighted that with the loss of Morale, with the points increase, and with the loss of KFF, boyz are just too flimsy for what they actually accomplish. Its a bit pathetic really, that 5ppm non-obsec grots which have a 7+ are preferable as a troops tax.

Gretchin are probably even worse than boyz, but I think the issue is that you can get so many awesome things in the codex right now, that not spending 40 points to "upgrade" gretchin into boyz is the right course of action.

I mean, what would you rather pick for scoring:
1) a unit of trukk boyz(90+70+10 for pk = 170)
2) a unit of gretchin AND one of the following: two units of 5 kommandoz (150 points) OR two units of storm boyz (160 points) OR two units of burnas (160 points) OR a unit of 4 warbikers (150 points)

Looking at current ork lists, the answer is rather clear.

Absolutely. Which don't get me wrong, I am fine with having less internal balance if it means we have more than a handful of units that can carry the list. Spamming as many Mek Gunz as you could was kind of boring in itself.

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.

Trukk boyz are currently illegal RAW

Trukk Boyz are 1 per detachment so at best you can get 3 of them so a maximum of 36 boyz in 3 units which cost you 534pts, previously you could footslog 66boyz for that price.

And only 2 trukkboyz units were taken out of 5 armies. Data is still coming in very slowly, but as of right now, I think the only way to make boyz competitive will be as trukk boyz.

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.

And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over

Like it or not there will never be any way to actually prove if a unit in a codex is objectively a strong, weak, or average unit if overtuned elements in that list exist.

It's pretty obvious that Orks are looking like a codex that's at least as good as DG was in comparison to the meta when they dropped....assuming you take the strongest elements in the 'dex and spam them (flyers, buggies.)

regardless of whether boyz are a bad unit that would get a 45% winrate, an average unit that would get a 50% winrate, or a good unit that would get a 55% winrate, competitive ork lists are going to be using the 65% winrate buggies and flyers unless those get reduced in power.

It's like wondering how good of a unit admech battle servitors and robots are. Who knows? Can't tell objectively, all we can say is that theyre worse than skitarii blocks, chicken walkers and flyers.

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.

And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over

Boys are a troop too. Don't leave that out. kind of important. Go ahead and tac 50 points for useless Gretchen to that commando unit and it stops looking so hot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Like it or not there will never be any way to actually prove if a unit in a codex is objectively a strong, weak, or average unit if overtuned elements in that list exist.

It's pretty obvious that Orks are looking like a codex that's at least as good as DG was in comparison to the meta when they dropped....assuming you take the strongest elements in the 'dex and spam them (flyers, buggies.)

regardless of whether boyz are a bad unit that would get a 45% winrate, an average unit that would get a 50% winrate, or a good unit that would get a 55% winrate, competitive ork lists are going to be using the 65% winrate buggies and flyers unless those get reduced in power.

It's like wondering how good of a unit admech battle servitors and robots are. Who knows? Can't tell objectively, all we can say is that theyre worse than skitarii blocks, chicken walkers and flyers.

We can easily look at the mathhammer though. Kataphron battle servitors are objectively bad. No core / cost too much points / hit on 4's lol.

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.

And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over

Boys are a troop too. Don't leave that out. kind of important. Go ahead and tac 50 points for useless Gretchen to that commando unit and it stops looking so hot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Like it or not there will never be any way to actually prove if a unit in a codex is objectively a strong, weak, or average unit if overtuned elements in that list exist.

It's pretty obvious that Orks are looking like a codex that's at least as good as DG was in comparison to the meta when they dropped....assuming you take the strongest elements in the 'dex and spam them (flyers, buggies.)

regardless of whether boyz are a bad unit that would get a 45% winrate, an average unit that would get a 50% winrate, or a good unit that would get a 55% winrate, competitive ork lists are going to be using the 65% winrate buggies and flyers unless those get reduced in power.

It's like wondering how good of a unit admech battle servitors and robots are. Who knows? Can't tell objectively, all we can say is that theyre worse than skitarii blocks, chicken walkers and flyers.

We can easily look at the mathhammer though. Kataphron battle servitors are objectively bad. No core / cost too much points / hit on 4's lol.

it appears to be general consensus among tournament players that ork stratagems are poor enough that people are perfectly happy to spend 3-8CP pre-game on only having to bring 1 single troop choice (patrol+outrider being the most common structure) and that's typically gretchins. Sometimes it's one single min trukk boyz squad, but trukk boyz evidently aren't good enough to justify bringing a second squad in that second detachment. Kommandos most certainly are good enough that almost nobody's leaving home without 3 squads.

on the subject of kataphrons, hitting on 4s, not having core, and 'too many points' are all subjective opinions or just...elements of a stat block. Plenty of units cost less, have core and hit on 3s or 2s and are quite bad - see tactical marines. The reality is, admech, just like orks, is a competitive book, but the units taken in competitive lists generally to my experience include no battle servitors and very few choose to include ork boyz. Some appear to include one single unit of trukk boyz, but most opt for one single unit of gretchins instead.

you see this come up a lot, generally in the other direction admittedly with people claiming "the whole entire book is OP!!!" when a particular faction is competitively dominant and getting into knock down drag out arguments about how crazy...SM 2.0 tactical marines or 7th ed eldar dire avengers or whatever are.

You just can't use the only available dataset, tournament data, to prove the strength of a unit that isn't appearing in tournament lists where the book is strong.

You can if the book is weak - if the unit were strong, people would be using it, therefore the unit is weak and probably incredibly weak if it's also not even appearing in the competitive lists people are trying to bring with the faction.

Competitive play is basically follow the leader.

I suppose right now - every point not being spent on scrapjets and the like is a point wasted. Which I am not disagreeing with.

Can they be competitive? yeah. They can. They are well in that range.

I think you've got this situation where Speedwaaagh with mass buggies and flyers and Kommandos+Storm Boyz to grab objectives seems very competitive (/too good) - but not explicitly broken compared with DE/Ad Mech/Sisters, and frankly even Marines/DG.

I don't think Boyz are terrible - but they are not bringing anything obvious to that sort of list. Saying they need to be buffed effectively means they need to be "better" than the thing I think is already S tier or whatever we want to describe it. Which kind of means making them ludicrous.

Partly though this is that I'm still in the "DE are overpowered and need to be toned down" camp - but increasingly they just seem to be the new normal (with a bit of an edge, but not a ludicrous one). Roll on the CWE/Guard/GSC/Tau etc codexes and I guess we'll see where we stand.

SemperMortis wrote:
Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

I dunno. Spending over 500 on boyz, 140 on Trukks, and getting first place doesn't tell me Boyz are useless. People can take buggy spam with no KFF and watch chaos plasma cannons eat them up at their own peril. Kommandos are great and all, but...limited to three, are not CORE, and won't have the option of a 6" pile-in and consolidate.

( Which is to say each has their place not that Kommandos are bad )

SemperMortis wrote:

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.

And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over

A lot of this feels a bit dishonest. Every positive the boyz had before was fairly situational. They got 20+ models in big units, big vulnerable units so in my experience you didn't always get that benefit and felt bad for deploying a unit under 20. Yes you were fearless, sometimes. Yes you could come back from the dead, but you needed to have some of the unit left first and it would cost you a sizable chunk of your CP allowance.

You can get a lot of the same power nowdays by taking MSU units. Your LD tests are not all or nothing unless the opponent chooses to kill a small number of boyz from every single unit rather than wiping them off one by one. You get more nobz which are free upgrades (except if you take a klaw of course, but they're cheap and reliableish now.) Yes the KFF is weaker in a lot of scenarios. But getting anything more than one large mob under the effect of a KFF would cripple your ability to spread out and control space. And once you actually moved there's a solid chance you'd be out of KFF range until you took enough causalities to fit again.

Now for that crucial first turn of shooting you do indeed have to spend 2CP to get back the 5++, but now you just to have part of 1 base and boom, the entire unit is protected. So the amount of stuff one mek can give a 5++ is pretty damn incredible. And it works in combat if your opponents alpha strike includes some melee options. (Which most good lists will, looking at you smashcaptains) What was once thought to be a typo is now confirmed.

If you wanted a great first turn you could easily build around it. Trukkboyz, Kommandoz, stormboyz and bikers. Give em a waagh and you're getting a fairly good amount of lads into combat without riding on high charge ranges. and you have an okay increase in durability and damage output with the profile changes.

The big changes between the 8th and 9th books are that boyz have a lower maximum output, but on the other hand they're a bit more independent and i'd argue because of it, more versatile for completing missions.

cody.d. wrote:


A lot of this feels a bit dishonest. Every positive the boyz had before was fairly situational. They got 20+ models in big units, big vulnerable units so in my experience you didn't always get that benefit and felt bad for deploying a unit under 20. Yes you were fearless, sometimes. Yes you could come back from the dead, but you needed to have some of the unit left first and it would cost you a sizable chunk of your CP allowance.

If you had 1-10 boys left you ALWAYS green tided lets take a look at the value. Right now, its 2CP to Kill D3 boyz and pass morale. 2CP. Green Tide was a 3CP strat that let you bring back upwards of 29 boyz, usually 20-29 which is 160-232pts of value. That was HUGE! That was also the reason why your opponent wouldn't multi-target boyz units because if you didn't finish 1 off 100%, it could come back.

cody.d. wrote:
You can get a lot of the same power nowdays by taking MSU units. Your LD tests are not all or nothing unless the opponent chooses to kill a small number of boyz from every single unit rather than wiping them off one by one. You get more nobz which are free upgrades (except if you take a klaw of course, but they're cheap and reliableish now.) Yes the KFF is weaker in a lot of scenarios. But getting anything more than one large mob under the effect of a KFF would cripple your ability to spread out and control space. And once you actually moved there's a solid chance you'd be out of KFF range until you took enough causalities to fit again.

As mentioned above, the reason why opponents didn't multi-target boyz units was because of Green tide. You could just spend CP and regain hundreds of points of models. It was frankly, OP. Now, turn 1, there isn't a reason not to multi-target since all you need is to kill 4 boyz to force a 50/50 morale check. The KFF was a huge nerf for objective holding. Having to shift 30 bodies with T4 and 5++ was annoying to say the least for opponents. A 6++ isn't worth mentioning really. Rather telling that they stripped that 6++ from Deffskullz to make the KFF have a purpose at all.

cody.d. wrote:
Now for that crucial first turn of shooting you do indeed have to spend 2CP to get back the 5++, but now you just to have part of 1 base and boom, the entire unit is protected. So the amount of stuff one mek can give a 5++ is pretty damn incredible. And it works in combat if your opponents alpha strike includes some melee options. (Which most good lists will, looking at you smashcaptains) What was once thought to be a typo is now confirmed.

Right, and what happens after you spend 2CP to get back what the KFF used to do? It blows up and can't be used for the rest of the game. At best its a situational upgrade, at worse...(most likely) its a straight nerf. Especially now since we are spamming buggies more than anything else, and fitting more than a couple under a KFF is hard.

cody.d. wrote:
If you wanted a great first turn you could easily build around it. Trukkboyz, Kommandoz, stormboyz and bikers. Give em a waagh and you're getting a fairly good amount of lads into combat without riding on high charge ranges. and you have an okay increase in durability and damage output with the profile changes.

The big changes between the 8th and 9th books are that boyz have a lower maximum output, but on the other hand they're a bit more independent and i'd argue because of it, more versatile for completing missions.

Bikers are M14 which is great, but they are predominantly a shooting unit, not a CC unit. So if you forego shooting you aren't getting much value out of those warbikes since they are essentially a really tough 25pt Boy. Trukkyboyz, they are good for an alpha strike unit, but you lose kulture which basically makes them no kulture boyz which means at best you are getting 33 attacks at S4 AP-1 or 44 with WAAAAGH and then whatever you equip the nob with. I don't understand the need to lose kulture to get the specialist detachments, none are super strong. Kommandos are great, and Stormboyz are much better with their new rules and Price. Basically anything boyz can do, can be done cheaper and better by a host of other options now.

In the previous editions after the first turn you frequently didn't get your KFF on anything important unless you chose to have it sitting in the backfield. Especially when GW decided to make the big mek on bike a legends option. So having the KFF only function for turn 1 isn't a massive loss IMO. An ork army that wants to focus on melee should very much be focusing on getting into combat in their second turn, if not their first. So if your big mek isn't giving out an invul by then I don't think it's a big deal. It's part of why the mega mek has been on the rise. You can either keep the KMB or give him the DDS and pump out some nice support fire while doing a little healing here and there.

And claiming the invul was taken off deffskulls was just "to make the KFF have a purpose at all" is a bit on the conspiracy theory side of thing. And doesn't hold water because beast snaggas got that invul as an inbuilt rule. It's more likely just an issue of GW being a bit hamfisted with their allocation of special rules. Which, well we see that fairly often right?

Trukkboyz make a good supplement rather than a replacement. If you use them in tandem with the units I've mentioned you end up with great target saturation, your opponent blinks and boom, first turn he has a variety of units chipping away at his front lines. Hell if you're lucky maybe even those trukks made it in, or are otherwise being used to block important movement lanes.

Trying to evaluate a unit purely based on it's stats can be hard. But if I'm honest the only reason I would take big units of boyz right now would be some of the ork specific secondaries and the small number of stratagems that may be worth while. Stomp em good likes chunky units with the ability to kill and absorb wounds. Though green tide doesn't really care how big the actual units are, just that you have a certain number of models.

The problem with comparing previous boyz with green tide and current t5 boyz is that they have different roles. Previously you could add 30 to any list, reliably deep strike them and basically force your opponent to deal with them while your other stuff rolls around, scores and kills the enemy. Even better If those boyz made a charge.
They either got 6++ or +1 to charge which upped the chance of making it into combat to basically 3+. And than, if even a single boy remained, you could green tide and get another 30.
Or you could just footslog a couple 30- man squads protected by fnp and 5++ or 6++ and more reliably score mid board + get easier greentide cause they're further from the opponent.

That were solid strategies that nothing else in our army could perform.

Now greentide ia out of the picture, large squads are too vulnerable to ld, no +1 charge or free 6++, deepstriking is much less reliable and together with the nerfs to large squads, you're better off deepstriking something like 9 bikers on a flank from a hiding place with less problems in case the cast fails.
So, boyz have to change a role. To what? Basically, to msu point holders and action performers. And in this role they compare unfavorably to kommandoes and stormboyz. And when you need troops to save CP, you can either take 10 boyz for 90 pts to sit behind blos and perform actions or rush to a point and perform actions or, for just 10 more you can have 10 grots + 5 kommandoes to sit behind blos and perform actions or rush to a point and perform actions but in 2 different places.

Another option are trukk boyz that might have a niche atdealing with opponent's scoring but they compete with squig buggies in this role. Also, 3 manz can be trukkboyz and it's obvious, the opponent's scoring would rather have 10 boyz than 3 manz in their face. Both are a bit too pricey for what they do. And more than 2 trukkboyz is a waste. More likely, 1. But than again, for 160 pts you can have 10 grots and 2*5 stormboyz or kommandoes that are better at other stuff while your buggies and planes deal with opponent's scoring...

It's no use comparing bare stats as, yes, t5 and ap1 for 9 pts is clearly better than t4 and ap0 for 8, but the thing is you must not compare stats. You must compare the unit's functionality.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

I dunno. Spending over 500 on boyz, 140 on Trukks, and getting first place doesn't tell me Boyz are useless. People can take buggy spam with no KFF and watch chaos plasma cannons eat them up at their own peril. Kommandos are great and all, but...limited to three, are not CORE, and won't have the option of a 6" pile-in and consolidate.

( Which is to say each has their place not that Kommandos are bad )

Kommadoz are core though.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

I dunno. Spending over 500 on boyz, 140 on Trukks, and getting first place doesn't tell me Boyz are useless. People can take buggy spam with no KFF and watch chaos plasma cannons eat them up at their own peril. Kommandos are great and all, but...limited to three, are not CORE, and won't have the option of a 6" pile-in and consolidate.

( Which is to say each has their place not that Kommandos are bad )

Kommadoz are core though.

Yep they are. I also just listened to the podcast where the guy went over his strat for that game. His boyz were used exclusively to take and hold objectives and to die as slowly as possible. That is it. Can't question the results, he is i think 20th in ITC right now, but at the same time he openly admits this is his first/second iteration of a competitive ork list with the new codex.

Why does he use beast snagga boyz with that tactic though?

 Jidmah wrote:
Why does he use beast snagga boyz with that tactic though?

He didn't say specifically in his podcast interview, i'm guessing they were the ones pushing forward into the enemy, that +1 strength and 6++ can be useful

I've been using three units of trukk boys in my list, on the assumption that it works as we believe was intended rather than how it is written.

So far I've found that they're pretty good, but they need to be supported otherwise they're basically a waste of points. They can't be the only threat you push into your opponents face and they can't be the only thing running around grabbing objectives and performing actions.

Mine are supported by two units of ten kommandos and two units of five stormboys, for plenty of fast moving obsec infantry, and the rest of the list is pretty much bosses, buggies and koptas to do the heavy lifting and draw fire as the bigger threats.

I would probably be better off just going for a full on buggy bonanza, but I can't justify spending even more money at the moment

Same. I essentially just use them to switch off obsec while my other units do the heavy lifting.