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 Sim-Life wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wow and I thought Chapter House was a mess. I guess GW is still GW.

They never stopped. They just got a nice shiny coat of fresh paint and a Facebook page.

And the people here lapped it up.

It's ridiculous to me that even in this thread people are like "its completely fine and normal".

As others have pointed out, this is completely normal. It's actually more helpful than GW technically need to be. All these guidelines are outlining is what is currently enshrined in the law (with maybe a small amount of GW spin in their favour) but they're not obligated to publish these guidelines in order to enforce their rights.

We can judge how ridiculous things get when and if GW take action against people they think are infringing their rights. Until then, everyone getting bent out of shape over this is just coming across as naive, IMO.

beast_gts wrote:
Probably worth pointing out these are worldwide guidelines rather than limited to a specific jurisdiction.

Someone on Twitter has said that German law doesn't allow transference of IP so GW cannot 'buy' fan-films and take them over, so a blanket ban might be the only way to avoid issues.

It's a bit more complicated, but yes, under German law a creator cannot sell or transfer ALL rights to their work, aside from inheritance. They can license it out, but always retain certain rights, including the right to be identified as the author.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Germany

This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

...because they're now told people what is already enshrined in IP law and what is already covered by said laws even without them having written this?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

You should ask yourself, why do you have 3d printed models and rules on battlescribe? Cause to me sounds like the company isn't fulfilling your needs then.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I think saying that fails to do credit to how awful things were in the early 10's, when it was dubbed the 'summer of terror' on this very forum I believe. Still have a ways to go!

To be fair, I hadn't thought about the stuff you wrote in quite some time. I do remember pictures being taken down in N&R because of GW's brain-dead policies (or, at the very least, the fear of said moronic policies).

It might also be the origin of those mind-numbing rules posts where we'd be told that this unit costs "one rhino minus 3 Gretchin in points" and other such asinine nonsense. Glad we're past that... or are we?

We shall use abstract colours and shapes to represent numbers, to avoid GW saying we're copying them from their publications! It's brilliant!

I swear if they go after people like Lutein or good bat rep channels like StrikingScorpion, people will get very very angry.

Sunno wrote:
I swear if they go after people like Lutein or good bat rep channels like StrikingScorpion, people will get very very angry.

Under what provision of this does that seem likely?

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

Even that hypothetical person, who gets their rules online and 3D prints their own models, GW could be selling paint, brushes, scenery, gaming accessories, books and merch to, not to mention they're promoting 40k to their friends/family and thus creating new customers. Why you'd want to litigate that person out of your ecosystem is totally beyond me, sorry.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It is completely normal.

CBS/Paramount:
CBS and Paramount Pictures will not object to, or take legal action against, Star Trek fan productions that are non-professional and amateur and meet the following guidelines.
[…] These guidelines are not a license and do not constitute approval or authorization of any fan productions or a waiver of any rights that CBS or Paramount Pictures may have with respect to fan fiction created outside of these guidelines.

Lucasfilm:
Sponsor grants you a non-exclusive license to create the Video using Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products for the purposes of creating a Video for this Contest only, provided that such license shall be conditioned upon your assignment to Sponsor of all rights in and to the Video (if such rights are not assigned to Sponsor, your license to create the Submission using Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products shall be null and void).
At all times, as between Sponsor and Contestant, Sponsor shall retain all right, title and interest in the Lucasfilm IP and officially licensed Star Wars® products as well as all copyrights therein; this grant of a license is not intended to transfer any ownership rights in the Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products or the copyrights therein. This grant of license is made contingent upon the Contestant maintaining all copyright and trademark notices included in the Lucasfilm IP in the Pack The licensed rights will automatically expire at the end of the Contest. Any other use of the Lucasfilm IP in the Pack is strictly prohibited and constitutes an actionable violation of Sponsor’s rights.

GW:
Individuals must not create fan films or animations based on our settings and characters. These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

So GW should throw the baby out of the bathwater and lose that person's money because they kick them out of the hobby?

I don't know of any modern, healthy company that operates this way. As GabeN famously said, -fiddle-de-dee- is a service problem... meet the consumer where they are and pull them into the ecosystem, don't blacklist somebody like the above strawman who obviously is a great candidate for at least some extraction of funds.

Billicus wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

Even that hypothetical person, who gets their rules online and 3D prints their own models, GW could be selling paint, brushes, scenery, gaming accessories, books and merch to, not to mention they're promoting 40k to their friends/family and thus creating new customers. Why you'd want to litigate that person out of your ecosystem is totally beyond me, sorry.

Because selling models is their core business.
Because a lot of 3d models looks slightly off, and they don't want people thinking that dodgy 3d prints are what GW actually sells.
Because why would a person who prints GW models buy GW terrain?

Sunno wrote:
I swear if they go after people like Lutein or good bat rep channels like StrikingScorpion, people will get very very angry.

GW would likely lose if they went after any that have money to fight it, and do people really think GW are insane.

That would be a huge dust up of the YouTube landscape for 40k. It would probably be rather funny to see all the bat rep channels switch to infinity,warmachine, legion and every other game at the exact same time.
Just until it blow over.

I have a 3D resin printer, multiple Patreon subscriptions to sculptors that create stuff in a grim dark sci-fi setting, a Battlescribe subscription (best app ever!), a profound love for a Russian website that collects all 40K rules in the best possible way and a lot of hobby material (paints, brushes, tools, ...) made from a whole range of different companies.
Yet I have more than 20k points of official, legit, non-recasted, ... GW models across five different armies, too many GW rulebooks and a ton of Citadel paints, brushes, tools.

This idea that you're either a GW customer that lives and breathes only inside the GW environment or you're a pirate that has no say on what happens in this hobby is silly, to keep it mildly.

 Polonius wrote:

Billicus wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

Even that hypothetical person, who gets their rules online and 3D prints their own models, GW could be selling paint, brushes, scenery, gaming accessories, books and merch to, not to mention they're promoting 40k to their friends/family and thus creating new customers. Why you'd want to litigate that person out of your ecosystem is totally beyond me, sorry.

Because selling models is their core business.
Because a lot of 3d models looks slightly off, and they don't want people thinking that dodgy 3d prints are what GW actually sells.
Because why would a person who prints GW models buy GW terrain?

This doesn't feel like it's in good faith. Lots of 3d prints look great. And GW sells Warp Spiders, you can't tell me that not-Warp Spiders look better than those current finecast abominations.

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

and as long as you active play the game in public you have a value to GW as you provide the most important resource: easy to find player/opponents
how many good games out there get overlooked because "I cannot find anyone that plays it"

this is one if the main selling points for the game
while the one who buys the models to put on the shelf for display and buys the books for the fluff but never plays the game gives GW money, he does not help them growing the game and get other to play it

for the very same reason other companies give away their rules for free, to get enough people playing it so that those that buy their products have a reason to do so

if GW would remove all sources of free rules, I don't know of the games would still be that popular because from a lot of groups clubs I know the only reasons why they play it is because they can get the rules for free

This is tripple astounding as they could just sponsor the content, throw the creators a bone, still maintain IP integrity and get free advertisement.
But paid advertisement makes more money from the gullible i guess.

I hate to be that guy, but I called it. May all the copyright crusaders gnash their teeth as they prostrate themselves before me.

There was a burgeoning scene of fan film and fan art creators, all made possible by the monetization of their work. It seemed like there was a new, high-quality fan film every week. GW has effectively killed that in one fell swoop. Chilling effects will keep artists from making art that, by and large, was high-quality and reflected the setting well. This is not a new story; companies effectively destroy the metaphorical commons out of their own greed all the time.

That said, everything GW does is *legal*. And we must remember that it doesn't mean it is *moral*.

 kodos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

and as long as you active play the game in public you have a value to GW as you provide the most important resource: easy to find player/opponents
how many good games out there get overlooked because "I cannot find anyone that plays it"

this is one if the main selling points for the game
while the one who buys the models to put on the shelf for display and buys the books for the fluff but never plays the game gives GW money, he does not help them growing the game and get other to play it

for the very same reason other companies give away their rules for free, to get enough people playing it so that those that buy their products have a reason to do so

if GW would remove all sources of free rules, I don't know of the games would still be that popular because from a lot of groups clubs I know the only reasons why they play it is because they can get the rules for free

It has long since been established, that Piracy, is first and foremost a service problem, (including unreasonable conversion rates for money for certain countries: Cries in CHF and i am sure some folk from down under will join me in that chorus....):
It has also been established that individual piracy rarely actively hurts a game developper but rather seems to lead to increased sales in some way.

 kodos wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It is completely normal.

CBS/Paramount:
CBS and Paramount Pictures will not object to, or take legal action against, Star Trek fan productions that are non-professional and amateur and meet the following guidelines.
[…] These guidelines are not a license and do not constitute approval or authorization of any fan productions or a waiver of any rights that CBS or Paramount Pictures may have with respect to fan fiction created outside of these guidelines.

Lucasfilm:
Sponsor grants you a non-exclusive license to create the Video using Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products for the purposes of creating a Video for this Contest only, provided that such license shall be conditioned upon your assignment to Sponsor of all rights in and to the Video (if such rights are not assigned to Sponsor, your license to create the Submission using Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products shall be null and void).
At all times, as between Sponsor and Contestant, Sponsor shall retain all right, title and interest in the Lucasfilm IP and officially licensed Star Wars® products as well as all copyrights therein; this grant of a license is not intended to transfer any ownership rights in the Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products or the copyrights therein. This grant of license is made contingent upon the Contestant maintaining all copyright and trademark notices included in the Lucasfilm IP in the Pack The licensed rights will automatically expire at the end of the Contest. Any other use of the Lucasfilm IP in the Pack is strictly prohibited and constitutes an actionable violation of Sponsor’s rights.

GW:
Individuals must not create fan films or animations based on our settings and characters. These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop

CBS saying as long as you only make entirely amateur, single 15 minute or 30min (in 2 segments) fan film that must in no way infringe on their "Star Trek" trademark, must not copy what they've done, you cannot pay anyone working on it or profit at all, where you cannot own the rights to any of it, you probably won't be sued but they can change their mind at any time and still might go after anything outside of that specific guideline?

Lucasfilm having a contest that people would obviously have to make stuff for, giving people the rights to specifically make stuff for that contest and that after doing you loose the license and cannot use it to do other things?

Neither of those are anywhere near the same context as "do whatever you want with our IP without even getting permission". There's also that, those two examples are them giving a limited-use license temporarily...and the "These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop" is the part that's relevant to that sort of thing in GWs context.

For anyone wondering, this does NOT affect all Fan-made films. There's a bit of a misunderstanding when it comes to what is actually covered by Fair Use. This includes Review and Parody. Ironically, making something super in-appropriate or sexual, and using Games Workshop characters in said animation, would likely be legal under Fair Use laws and the Fair Dealings laws in the UK. Still, Games Workshop would probably not want something like that to be seen by a lot of people, but there's nothing they can do. Also, any animations that were created BEFORE the recent Trademarks that were created by Games Workshop on development of Warhammer+ would also be protected, as they were established first and still retain their right to produce.

40k's IP is decades old at this point, that's when these protections started, not this morning when they added their stance to their website.

Although I absolutely agree that what GW can legally claim is infringement and what their website claims is infringement are not necessarily the same.
But in reality that distinction only matters if challenged in court, which will be an expensive legal battle few will be able to fight, resulting in them being forced to cave anyway.

Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
This has the feelings of a company that actively dislikes its established fan base.

Yeah, I'm' a huge fan of 40! I've got my 3d printed models, and rules on battlescribe, and I read all the lore on wikis. Why does GW treat fans like me so badly?

I would make a fair-sized bet that anyone that is into the hobby enough to own a 3D printer, has probably gone some way in the past to help fund Tom Kirby's yacht in the past..

Slipspace wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wow and I thought Chapter House was a mess. I guess GW is still GW.

They never stopped. They just got a nice shiny coat of fresh paint and a Facebook page.

And the people here lapped it up.

It's ridiculous to me that even in this thread people are like "its completely fine and normal".

As others have pointed out, this is completely normal. It's actually more helpful than GW technically need to be. All these guidelines are outlining is what is currently enshrined in the law (with maybe a small amount of GW spin in their favour) but they're not obligated to publish these guidelines in order to enforce their rights.

We can judge how ridiculous things get when and if GW take action against people they think are infringing their rights. Until then, everyone getting bent out of shape over this is just coming across as naive, IMO.

I'ts not naive I'm afraid when some of us can remember the wreckage from last time around..!

I am still hoping that these updates are for the genuine threats to GW - the massive re-casting operations in China and Russia etc making knock-off goods - not designed to take out some part-time garage seller who makes bespoke bits to use with 30k miniatures on his weekends, or an artist who has posted some cool marine art on Deviant Art, issuing C&D notices to forums or the communities that keep 'dead' games going with rules available online etc.

Those things listed above and worse have happened to the fan community in the past, with the old, ugly, belligerent GW that let their legal team run riot in the late 00's and early 10's (culminating in the Chapter House case).

GW have shown they are willing to give longtime fans what they want over recent years - the re-releases of the Specialist Games, making WD into more than an advertising pamphlet once more to name just a couple of examples - lets hope that holds true here and they don't start wielding a flamethrower unnecessarily.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
40k's IP is decades old at this point, that's when these protections started, not this morning when they added their stance to their website.

Although I absolutely agree that what GW can legally claim is infringement and what their website claims is infringement are not necessarily the same.
But in reality that distinction only matters if challenged in court, which will be an expensive legal battle few will be able to fight, resulting in them being forced to cave anyway.

Trademarks do not apply to all mediums. When a trademark is being applied for, it must state what it covers, and must be relevant to the material and medium the company is producing for. This is also the reason why it's possible to trademark colours as well. They only apply within the domain of their medium.

This pretty hilarious not gonna lie

 Polonius wrote:

Billicus wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Snip

Snip

Snip

Because selling models is their core business.
Because a lot of 3d models looks slightly off, and they don't want people thinking that dodgy 3d prints are what GW actually sells.

Funny you mentioned that, since - they do!

I am still hoping that these updates are for the genuine threats to GW - the massive re-casting operations in China and Russia etc making knock-off goods - not designed to take out some part-time garage seller who makes bespoke bits to use with 30k miniatures on his weekends, or an artist who has posted some cool marine art on Deviant Art, issuing C&D notices to forums or the communities that keep 'dead' games going with rules available online etc.

Who's easier to go after? A professional recaster in a country that doesn't give two bits about UK IP rights, or "small bespoke 3D printer"?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but I called it. May all the copyright crusaders gnash their teeth as they prostrate themselves before me.

There was a burgeoning scene of fan film and fan art creators, all made possible by the monetization of their work. It seemed like there was a new, high-quality fan film every week. GW has effectively killed that in one fell swoop. Chilling effects will keep artists from making art that, by and large, was high-quality and reflected the setting well. This is not a new story; companies effectively destroy the metaphorical commons out of their own greed all the time.

That said, everything GW does is *legal*. And we must remember that it doesn't mean it is *moral*.

GW hasn't "killed" anything unless and until they decide to actually go after and shut down any fan-created content with an iron hammer.

That said, are you really surprised that GW would go after fan films that profit off the monetization of GW's own IP? It's not like you can monetize and sell your My Little Pony fanfiction either. The Astartes guy was making bank off his Patreon - ie profiting pretty nicely off the back of decades of GW's design work - so it came down to two choices: hire the guy and pay him to produce the awesome fan work he's been doing using their IP, or shut it down entirely and let it never see the light of day again. Guess which one results in a better net reaction from the existing GW customer base?

Lucasfilm:
Sponsor grants you a non-exclusive license to create the Video using Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products for the purposes of creating a Video for this Contest only, provided that such license shall be conditioned upon your assignment to Sponsor of all rights in and to the Video (if such rights are not assigned to Sponsor, your license to create the Submission using Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products shall be null and void).
At all times, as between Sponsor and Contestant, Sponsor shall retain all right, title and interest in the Lucasfilm IP and officially licensed Star Wars® products as well as all copyrights therein; this grant of a license is not intended to transfer any ownership rights in the Lucasfilm IP or officially licensed Star Wars® products or the copyrights therein. This grant of license is made contingent upon the Contestant maintaining all copyright and trademark notices included in the Lucasfilm IP in the Pack The licensed rights will automatically expire at the end of the Contest. Any other use of the Lucasfilm IP in the Pack is strictly prohibited and constitutes an actionable violation of Sponsor’s rights.

This is what's basically known as "spec work", and most artists hate it. In effect, you get to play around(for free) in Lucasfilm's Star Wars universe and make whatever the hell you want for the purposes of this content, and then if you're lucky enough to "win", Lucafilm gets to claim any and all rights to your creative work and ideas and use them as their own. You're effectively working for free and seeing no actual benefit to all your hard work beyond maybe a pat on the back and a paltry prize. A lot of companies do this kind of thing regularly in the form of "Design a new slogan / logo for our brand and you could see your art on cereal boxes nationwide!" or "Make a dance track that embodies this movie and you could hear your music in our movie trailer!".

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Neither of those are anywhere near the same context as "do whatever you want with our IP without even getting permission"

which no one ever said it should?

you argue that "not allowing anything at all" is normal, while 2 other big companies with popular franchise and a tight IP, allow fan-films

they have certain restrictions what is allowed and how it need to look like, but you can use the setting to create your own films within that setting
and Lucasfilm even gives you a license for that if you participate in a fan-film contest

if you can't see the difference here and that not banning everything does not automatically mean that everyone can use the setting to do whatever he wants, I don't know
and this is before we argue about fair use and how 5 minute 40k animations on YT are free advertising for GW and not something that will hinder their sales