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Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Looks like GW is heading back to the naughty corner to be ignored.

This heavy handedness will reinforce the 3d print market.

Folks will not be thinking, 'is it really ok to print a CSM shoulderplate', and thinking 'the chaos star belongs to Moorcock, GW stole it <print>.'

What stops 3d printing is the good nature of most gamers, but gamers are often aware of the hypocrisy of GW's policies, lose sympathy and thus are more willing to cross the line. Third party manufacture are grey areas, often with caveats for legal distinction, and but custom bitz and characters do not hurt GW's business model. Most gamers will go only so far out of fairness. Buy a GW army, then add a third party legally sold character. When GW gets nasty over that, fine, I will buy a third party legally sold army instead. I am committing no crime for 3d printing or buying from third party manufacturers, but when GW have a no tolerance to activities that are legal but they don't like, then it magnifies all the bad stuff they do and makes it easier to just cut them out of the financial loop when it is convenient to do so. Play fair with me bucko and I play fair with you, go totalitarian on me, and I will take more of my money elsewhere.

I backed a not-Skaven stl file Kickstarter recently. Was going to print a rat or two to back up a projected purchase of GW rats and to have alt models for single pose entities like the A-bomb. But it is not illegal to just print the entire army and have a proxy counts as Skaven that look similar or better to the stuff GW sells at outrageous prices, so why not save some money......

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 11:19:14


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Slipspace wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
The bit about imitation models was already there before. It's only the animation bit that is new (or rather it's moved to "zero tolerance").

A lot of this stuff I'm not sure how legally enforceable it actually is. Unfortunately most people simply don't have the money to stand up to GW, and they've only got more money to bury people in since Chapterhouse, so it doesn't really matter.


This is pretty standard stuff from a corporate IP policy perspective. The big problem with current IP laws is the principle is often secondary to the ability to pay for legal representation. Combine that with a presumption of guilt from places like YouTube when it comes to DMCA takedowns and too much power is with the large corporations. That said, the guidelines that expand on the bullet points actually seem relatively reasonable. We'll need to see just how far GW are willing to go to enforce these rules. That's where the real test will be.


pretty much the core problem, especially with Youtube...

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






whelp
and to think I just tried to get another friend to play warhammer.
I have a feeling that was a mistake.

I hope Warhammer+ burns in a fairy fire. Slowly, painfully and with a gakload of money lost, just as their terrible app.

Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
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Made in gb
Executing Exarch





oooh scary let slip the lawyers of IP, whose special skill is more or less failing upwards and falling back on GW having deeper pockets than the target

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I don't see how any of these - beyond perhaps point 2, which is quite vague and non-descript - are meant to be "absurd". They're typical copyright and trademark protection stuff. There is nothing here out of the ordinary or something that the majority of other IP holders wouldn't also do, you can't just use someones trademarks and copyrighted material and do whatever you want with it.

Part 5 is not "vague". It clearly says trademarks. A GW-derived avatar is not trademarked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 11:19:29


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Problem is here "setting" which means anything in the grim dark universe as no work that is related to 40k at all

not even CBS was stupid enough to go that far with fan films

and "trademarks" is vague as what GW believe is a valid trademark and what people can still use are 2 different things

is Spot the Space Marine against GWs trademarks?
GW said yes, Court said no

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 11:28:49


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So... Lexicanum is now illegal?


They were always operating in the grey area somewhere between fair use and copyright infringement. Nothing much changed.

All of this is pretty standard stuff. As long as you're not doing it for the money or actively hurting GW's image, you're fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 11:28:20


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 His Master's Voice wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So... Lexicanum is now illegal?


They were always operating in the grey area somewhere between fair use and copyright infringement. Nothing much changed.

All of this is pretty standard stuff. As long as you're not doing it for the money or actively hurting GW's image, you're fine.


People have the legal right to make money from derivative works, though.

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Made in fi
Charging Wild Rider





They can claim whatever they want, at least half of what they claim there has no or little legal basis from my (admittedly limited) understanding of these things.

But let's indeed see what action they take in practice. Take down the Warhammer mods for e.g. Rimworld? Seek the removal of 10-15mm scale sculpts matching Warhammer designs from webstores? Take down Wiki/Lexicanum for copying of text and images? Have "If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device" removed from YouTube? GW would gain very little for attempting any of that, but then, that doesn't mean they might not be stupid enough to try...
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 kodos wrote:
Problem is here "setting" which means anything in the grim dark universe as no work that is related to 40k at all

not even CBS was stupid enough to go that far with fan films

and "trademarks" is vague as what GW believe is a valid trademark and what people can still use are 2 different things

is Spot the Space Marine against GWs trademarks?
GW said yes, Court said no


GW does own the trademark to "Space Marine", they were within their rights to try and defend that. Just because GW tried to stop that and it was determined it was fine doesn't mean what GW did was invalid. It was determined that "Spots the Space Marine" didn't count as infringement because of the context the term was used in - that's how trademarks work.

If you're using the term in a context related to W40K/GW products, that could be confused as coming from GW, then that would be the sort of thing that likely counts.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







All those smug people who mewled over the 'whiners' being sceptical of Warhammer+ are probably feeling a bit stupid about now.
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






And remember this is the company that argued, in court that it owns the copyright on Roman Numerals, Chevrons, and even Human Skulls.

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I think everyone could benefit from a nice chill pill. Many companies have this kind of this as their base IP protection and it's all about enforcement.
I saw the example of Roosterteeth's Red VS Blue and Bungie/Microsoft, RVB could have been killed way back in the early 2000s but it wasn't because Bungie/Microsoft recognised it as the useful tool that it was for getting kids into Halo. However, we could have a situation like where Sony tried to trademark "Let's Play". They failed miserably and lost a lot of community standing.
I think we should let the people who have to worry about this do what they need to do and not try to doom-monger or incite fear/hatred.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Probably worth pointing out these are worldwide guidelines rather than limited to a specific jurisdiction.

Someone on Twitter has said that German law doesn't allow transference of IP so GW cannot 'buy' fan-films and take them over, so a blanket ban might be the only way to avoid issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 11:52:47


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not super knowledgeable when it comes to law, but isn't a lot of the things listed by GW protected under the Fair Use copyright law?

Is this GW flexing their muscles as a mega-corporation basically knowing they won't win court battles if it goes there but scaring off little guys who don't have the money to even fight the battles.

In any circumstance it is super unfortunate and definitely is linked to them pushing Warhammer +. "New" GW is starting to act a lot like old GW...
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





EldarExarch wrote:
I'm not super knowledgeable when it comes to law, but isn't a lot of the things listed by GW protected under the Fair Use copyright law?

Is this GW flexing their muscles as a mega-corporation basically knowing they won't win court battles if it goes there but scaring off little guys who don't have the money to even fight the battles.

In any circumstance it is super unfortunate and definitely is linked to them pushing Warhammer +. "New" GW is starting to act a lot like old GW...

New GW is just old GW with a fresh coat of paint.


 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wonder how specific they'll be with "material copied from any official Games Workshop material".
If I write "Death Korps of Krieg" in my fanfic, is that allowed?
What if I include an aquila in my fan art? What if I draw one of those Krieg models? Is that copied?


Probably.

If you drew the Aquila, not it’s not copied. If you took it from a Gw publication, yes it is copied. At least that’s my guess.


In fact, if you draw a two-headed Aquila with one eye on one head and angular wings with a certain number of feathers, that's technically infringement of the trademark regardless of whether you photocopy it, scan it, draw it, or sculpt it.

Of course, seeing as the Aquila is a historical symbol, all you have to do is give it a second eye and vary the number of feathers in the wings and GW can go whistle dixie. Which is why...

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I don't see how any of these - beyond perhaps point 2, which is quite vague and non-descript - are meant to be "absurd". They're typical copyright and trademark protection stuff. There is nothing here out of the ordinary or something that the majority of other IP holders wouldn't also do, you can't just use someones trademarks and copyrighted material and do whatever you want with it.

Part 5 is not "vague". It clearly says trademarks. A GW-derived avatar is not trademarked.


...these remarks don't track. It's not "typical copyright and trademark protection stuff" to claim the right to control things that even resemble your IP, as this policy does. GW's new policy also has to be viewed in light of GW's own prior behaviour, and that behaviour includes them claiming to own trademarks they never registered, claiming to own original artworks which in fact were created by independent contractors who's rights were never transferred, and various other things which I can only describe within the rules of this forum as "dastardly shenanigans".

Further, by setting such broad, far-reaching criteria for what they consider constitutes infringement, they are setting up a situation where they must go after fanfic writers, people making commission art of RPG characters, wikis of both rules and lore, hell, even r/Grimdank, because if they apply these farcically broad claims of ownership selectively they risk their legal foundation if and when they eventually do bring someone to court, because that person's lawyers will be able to point to huge lists of content that GW must plainly be aware of which breaches their asserted terms but against which GW had taken no action.

All I can say is I very much hope they bring a case against someone in the UK who's willing to fight them, because I look forward to contributing to that person's legal fund in the hope Lucasfilm v Ainsworth will screw GW over for good.

In the meantime, yo ho yo ho etc is doubtless about to become a very common refrain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 12:11:41


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 A Town Called Malus wrote:


People have the legal right to make money from derivative works, though.


Sure, as long as those derivative works fall within the constrains set out by the law.

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's not "typical copyright and trademark protection stuff" to claim the right to control things that even resemble your IP, as this policy does.


But... that's how IP protection laws work. If you feel something resembles your work past a reasonable point, you challenge it as a potential infringement in the court of law.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 12:23:38


 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 blood reaper wrote:
All those smug people who mewled over the 'whiners' being sceptical of Warhammer+ are probably feeling a bit stupid about now.


No they just gonna double down and find some justification for why this is good

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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

So, it's easy to assume the "contract" Games Workshop presented with the animators they "aquired" for Warhammer+ was roughly;

"Join us, or we'll make sure you never make another Warhammer animation again."

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's a shame that GW is ruining the fan friendly reputation they had started repairing a decade prior.

Back then, we had great deals (Start collecting, battle boxes, etc), the return of specialist games, more active communication with the community, made-to-order, etc.

Now, prices are creeping higher, they got rid of start collecting for 40k, their "great deal" boxes are limited supply and its really hit or miss if you can pick one up, made-to-order is pretty much dead, and now this. I get some of it, like protecting IP from third parties, but the animation thing seems like shooting themselves in the foot. I wonder if we'd even have Warhammer+ if Astartes hadn't gotten such a huge reaction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 12:16:41


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Using "made to order" as an example is kinda weird, no?
They've done them as waves in the past. It's never been a permanent thing.

Start Collectings were super hit/miss. The value was there but the name was misleading in some cases. I'll definitely agree that the Combat Patrols aren't as good for the most part. The AdMech one is trash compared to the last SC they put out.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

The big question is how lenient GW will be with non commercial everything.

If this is actually getting enforced and stuff like Lexicanum vanishes, it will be a big mistake.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Wow and I thought Chapter House was a mess. I guess GW is still GW.

What I have
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~1660

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Peace through power!

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Made in gb
Barpharanges







 lord_blackfang wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
All those smug people who mewled over the 'whiners' being sceptical of Warhammer+ are probably feeling a bit stupid about now.


No they just gonna double down and find some justification for why this is good


Ardent GW defenders are some of the most bizarre people on the planet.
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Well if content creators start to avoid GW even more, if the + channel is the only place to find GW content and the other official socials are discontinued then it will suck for the current channels that need to restructure themselves to avoid problems but I can live without any GW content... heck I mostly do that now.

Theres almost an infinite amount of alternative and free content today to keep painters and gamers entertained.




   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GaroRobe wrote:
It's a shame that GW is ruining the fan friendly reputation they had started repairing a decade prior.

Back then, we had great deals (Start collecting, battle boxes, etc), the return of specialist games, more active communication with the community, made-to-order, etc.

Now, prices are creeping higher, they got rid of start collecting for 40k, their "great deal" boxes are limited supply and its really hit or miss if you can pick one up, made-to-order is pretty much dead, and now this. I get some of it, like protecting IP from third parties, but the animation thing seems like shooting themselves in the foot. I wonder if we'd even have Warhammer+ if Astartes hadn't gotten such a huge reaction.


Advertising works, when done right it can do a lot for even the worst company. And GW has lots of YouTube channels willing to be exclusive to them.
Other games company only really get the chance on a few channels, and often they are lucky if they can turn there few chances into anything.

It also means that GW can be more direct in how it enforces its IP.
This isn’t really that different from other companies, but i don’t think you would see most others in this industry pushing it ether.
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Well how disappointing, this again..

My main concern is the impact this will have on the fan communities, because all it needs is one legal notice and it will cause shockwaves.

For those who were not around last time, during the Chapterhouse court cases and other goings on, it's not possible to overstate what an impact it had on the forum community. It wasn't just Chapterhouse, it was just a sequence of events that took place that made you think the fans (those who cared enough to create and maintain these sites) were pretty far down the pecking order when it came to consideration.

Established figures on one very well known forum were actually supplying names of users it thought were committing IP infringement or re-casting to GW.

Another forum that I was a very active part of actually had to change it name because it was worried the title of the forum was an infringement. Posts that were critical of GW (this was during Finecast) were removed, reference to other websites that were seen to be 'heretical' (and I gak you not - I saw language like that used), such as Beasts of War, was disallowed.

Many forums, including the ones above, were actively deleting user posts and imposing draconian rules over what could or couldn't be posted - I remember actual stock images of GW minis being taken down by mods in one example.

It was a horrible, horrible time to be an active member of that fan community. We all come here because we enjoy posting and the behaviour by GW at that time absolutely sucked the life out of it. In one case with the forums cited above, users unsurprisingly drifted away and it eventually shut down.

I will say that I don't know how much of these forums policies were actively forced by GW - I suspect actually very little, and few C&Ds issued - but the fact was that it created such a climate of fear with the mere threat that a site could be issued with a legal notice (and if I had invested lots of time and money in a community site, I would be worried about it being shut down too and probably impose those draconian measures!)

Let's hope, for all our sakes, it is just an updating of policy, and we don't have the 'Monty Burns legal team' gearing up for round 2.

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Made in gb
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UK

 Yodhrin wrote:


All I can say is I very much hope they bring a case against someone in the UK who's willing to fight them, because I look forward to contributing to that person's legal fund in the hope Lucasfilm v Ainsworth will screw GW over for good.

In the meantime, yo ho yo ho etc is doubtless about to become a very common refrain.




Is the Lucasfilm vs Ainsworth case the reason I ended up with a delightful Marks and Spencers chocolate 'Original Stormtrooper' helmet at Easter in a box that did not say Star Wars anywhere on it?

   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

The two things that really stand out to me about this are the stuff about recasting and imitation models. They just cannot enforce that crap. If I make a model that is similar to a GW model, how exactly are they going to sue me for it? They'd lose in court because it only needs to have minor differences to not be a direct copy, and as long as I don't advertise it as a GW model and give it a different name they can do nothing about it.

And as to recasting, I can recast any of my models. They're mine. I fully own them after I buy them. I can recast any object I own, make copies of anything I have bought. I can scan them and make 3D prints. Of course I can. And then I can sell them as well, they're my property and I can go to a car boot sale or flea market or sell them to any other individual.

There's obviously a difference if I set up an online shop selling GW recasts and so on. That's fair enough. But any hobbyist can recast, scan, or 3D print whatever the hell they want, and yeah, they can go sell their army on ebay afterwards if they want to. GW cannot enforce that and look stupid for trying.

As for fan animations and creations, well, I hope people stop creating them then. Less advertisement for a stupid company with an asinine approach to their IP, most of which is stolen from Michael Moorcock or folklore in any case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 12:39:38


   
 
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