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Well, it's obvious that hysteria gonna hysteria. And we can all mark this on our calendars as yet another day Games Workshop died, before people realize the world isn't jumping to attention over this issue either and they just move on.

 kodos wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Neither of those are anywhere near the same context as "do whatever you want with our IP without even getting permission"

which no one ever said it should?

you argue that "not allowing anything at all" is normal, while 2 other big companies with popular franchise and a tight IP, allow fan-films

they have certain restrictions what is allowed and how it need to look like, but you can use the setting to create your own films within that setting
and Lucasfilm even gives you a license for that if you participate in a fan-film contest

if you can't see the difference here and that not banning everything does not automatically mean that everyone can use the setting to do whatever he wants, I don't know
and this is before we argue about fair use and how 5 minute 40k animations on YT are free advertising for GW and not something that will hinder their sales

No, this is "normal" in the sense of it's what IP law already says. This is what is enshrined and established by the law regardless of what they wrote here and would have been already in place protecting their IP even if they had not written this article.

Only 1 of those examples you gave was allow fan-films under certain guidelines. The 2nd one was a very specific, limited duration license for the purpose of a contest and not a comparable situation.

Getting a real sense of Deja vu from all this.

GW have always been this way, they just managed to convince people that they were 'friendly' with their Social Media presence.

It's good to see GW having a nervous breakdown again. No not really. This from a company that stole their space marines from Robert Heinlien and the old world from Tolkien. The same company that used Sean Connery as a comissar. If they stopped charging 60 dollars for three guys people might just stop pirating them. If you had free rules on your website more people would buy more models. GW you caused this problem fix it! Until then I just buy more Star Wars Legion. Good luck

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
No, this is "normal" in the sense of it's what IP law already says. This is what is enshrined and established by the law regardless of what they wrote here and would have been already in place protecting their IP even if they had not written this article.

Only 1 of those examples you gave was allow fan-films under certain guidelines. The 2nd one was a very specific, limited duration license for the purpose of a contest and not a comparable situation.

Not a lawyer or experienced in regards to this stuff at all, but given the highlighted part ist true, then - so far - nothing changed compared to last week when it wasn't written on GW's website.

We have to see if and how this is going to be enforced. That one guy (sorry, forgot the name, but we had a thread about it) who recently got contacted by GW and he declined the offer to join them on their animation team. He said he was allowed to continue with 40k animations, as long as he is not earning any money with it. Would be a weird move to tell him that and then shut him down a week after only because the rights that GW already had are now written on their website, too.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wow and I thought Chapter House was a mess. I guess GW is still GW.

They never stopped. They just got a nice shiny coat of fresh paint and a Facebook page.

And the people here lapped it up.

It's ridiculous to me that even in this thread people are like "its completely fine and normal". I wonder if they'll say the same if GW decides to sue or C&D an artist who drew a 40k drawing on commission or something. Or Emperor's Text To Speech. Though on the upside I suppose it means less furry space marine art.

Give it 6 months to a year. We'll be back to Chapterhouse era GW and all us "haters" will be proven right. That's not a prediction, that's a

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They're typical copyright and trademark protection stuff.

You (and others) keep saying that. But well-known exceptions to the copyright of derivative works are e.g. reviews and parodies. Several elements of both of these (quoting text, using images and symbology derived from GW sources) would be disallowed following GW's rules, but are most certainly legal for these purposes. Claiming otherwise is most certainly not "typical copyright and trademark protection stuff". Not to mention the fact that GW obviously seems to believe it owns many concepts they didn't invent themselves anyway.

Yes, some people think fair use extends far beyond what it really covers, and yes, some people were up in arms recently when Disney allegedly tried to copyright the character of Loki. (They didn't.) Games Workshop however still seems to believe they can control and have ownership of far more than they really do. Again, the only remaining question now is whether they'll try to act on this.

Pointer5 wrote:
It's good to see GW having a nervous breakdown again. No not really. This from a company that stole their space marines from Robert Heinlien and the old world from Tolkien.

Please show me where I can find Bretonnia or Kislev on a map of Middle-earth. Or where in the Lord of the Rings I can find Tomb Kings, or Skaven. Or Imperial battle-wizards, for that matter. Or where Tolkien's estate alleges that the Old World is a direct and shameless copy of Middle-earth.

I hate this stupid claim so much. I hate to tell you this, but just because Games Workshop took some inspirational cues from a variety of previous fantasy and sci-fi settings doesn't mean that the Warhammer 40,000 universe hasn't turned into its own distinct setting over the past thirty years. People love to bellow "GW clearly stole the Alien/xenomorph from Giger and Ridley Scott to make their Tyranids and should be sued into the ground for it!!". Well, if Giger's estate and Mr. Ridley Scott had believed that to be true then surely they would have taken legal action by now?

GW constantly shoots itself in the foot with their fears of IP retention and monopolizing the "hobby".

I created an 11 page single day aeronautica imperalis campaign that had ground assests represented by epic 40k miniatures. That was not allowed. So instead of allowing me to revitalize a local scene with a fun expansion on the base rules, no one is playing at all. Great idea. It sends a signal that the product is more important than the players.

I fully expect this thread to be locked by the time I get up tomorrow morning. I'll take solace in the fact that I have not one but two friends who own 3D printers.

It's a pity there's nothing else to play but GW games in GW's universe with GW toys...

 Grimtuff wrote:
Give it 6 months to a year. We'll be back to Chapterhouse era GW and all us "haters" will be proven right. That's not a prediction, that's a

Spoiler:

spoiler!

proven right about what?

I can be, and have been, highly critical of GW. I've also stopped playing/buying for stretches. I play (and to a lesser extent buy) now for two simple reasons: I enjoy the game, and I want to collect the models. GW's morality, as judged by the peanut gallery (or myself), isn't a factor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
GW constantly shoots itself in the foot with their fears of IP retention and monopolizing the "hobby".

I created an 11 page single day aeronautica imperalis campaign that had ground assests represented by epic 40k miniatures. That was not allowed. So instead of allowing me to revitalize a local scene with a fun expansion on the base rules, no one is playing at all. Great idea. It sends a signal that the product is more important than the players.

Why was that not allowed? I don't see anything in those guidelines that would prohibit a homebrew campaign.

 Polonius wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Give it 6 months to a year. We'll be back to Chapterhouse era GW and all us "haters" will be proven right. That's not a prediction, that's a

Spoiler:

spoiler!

proven right about what?

I can be, and have been, highly critical of GW. I've also stopped playing/buying for stretches. I play (and to a lesser extent buy) now for two simple reasons: I enjoy the game, and I want to collect the models. GW's morality, as judged by the peanut gallery (or myself), isn't a factor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
GW constantly shoots itself in the foot with their fears of IP retention and monopolizing the "hobby".

I created an 11 page single day aeronautica imperalis campaign that had ground assests represented by epic 40k miniatures. That was not allowed. So instead of allowing me to revitalize a local scene with a fun expansion on the base rules, no one is playing at all. Great idea. It sends a signal that the product is more important than the players.

Why was that not allowed? I don't see anything in those guidelines that would prohibit a homebrew campaign.

Uncertainty from the manager and a fear of breaking guidelines. I could tell he was hesitant. Gw corporate definitly was placing pressue on him in one way or another. He said it was one of those "grey areas". I've heard of people being denied the ability to play older systems like epi in GW stores as well.

At the end of it I was forthcoming and told him that my epic minis were 3rd party, but honestly no one would have ever known and I prefer to have a clean conscience and not get my friend in trouble. But by disallowing stuff like that, the company stopped a scene fron coming back and getting more people to engage with their brand and products.

 Polonius wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Give it 6 months to a year. We'll be back to Chapterhouse era GW and all us "haters" will be proven right. That's not a prediction, that's a

Spoiler:

spoiler!

proven right about what?

Um, what HBMC (and others) has been saying for quite some time. Nu-GW is the same as old GW just with a new coat of paint.

But... but they have a Facebook page! They reference memes! They've changed guys! Honest!

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Why was that not allowed? I don't see anything in those guidelines that would prohibit a homebrew campaign.

Uncertainty from the manager and a fear of breaking guidelines. I could tell he was hesitant. Gw corporate definitly was placing pressue on him in one way or another. He said it was one of those "grey areas". I've heard of people being denied the ability to play older systems in GW stores as well.

At the end of it I was forthcoming and told him that my epic minis were 3rd party, but honestly no one would have ever known and I prefer to have a clean conscience and not get my friend in trouble. But by disallowing stuff like that, the company stopped a scene fron coming back and getting more people to engage with their brand and products.

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Why was that not allowed? I don't see anything in those guidelines that would prohibit a homebrew campaign.

Uncertainty from the manager and a fear of breaking guidelines. I could tell he was hesitant. Gw corporate definitly was placing pressue on him in one way or another. He said it was one of those "grey areas". I've heard of people being denied the ability to play older systems in GW stores as well.

At the end of it I was forthcoming and told him that my epic minis were 3rd party, but honestly no one would have ever known and I prefer to have a clean conscience and not get my friend in trouble. But by disallowing stuff like that, the company stopped a scene fron coming back and getting more people to engage with their brand and products.

so, it was a GW store manager who made that call? I agree that sucks, but that's a local decision by a local manager, not a corporate wide statement of principles.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They're typical copyright and trademark protection stuff.

You (and others) keep saying that. But well-known exceptions to the copyright of derivative works are e.g. reviews and parodies. Several elements of both of these (quoting text, using images and symbology derived from GW sources) would be disallowed following GW's rules, but are most certainly legal for these purposes. Claiming otherwise is most certainly not "typical copyright and trademark protection stuff". Not to mention the fact that GW obviously seems to believe it owns many concepts they didn't invent themselves anyway.

Yes, some people think fair use extends far beyond what it really covers, and yes, some people were up in arms recently when Disney allegedly tried to copyright the character of Loki. (They didn't.) Games Workshop however still seems to believe they can control and have ownership of far more than they really do. Again, the only remaining question now is whether they'll try to act on this.

Nothing GW has said in those guidelines is technically incorrect, even more so because they're not legally binding anyway. It's also true to say that those guidelines are fairly meaningless as legal guidance and anyone looking to create derivative works would do well to familiarise themselves with what is and isn't allowed by law. What companies think they can do and what they try to do in the realm of copyright is often not legally sound and when GW actually try that I'll be the first to criticise. Until then this is all just classic, typical GW hate.

 Sim-Life wrote:
GW store managers aren't left to their own devices, they're very answerable to people higher up the chain.

I'm sure, but I really doubt this guy got on the horn with GW Legal to hash out the IP ramifications. I think a lot of store managers, FLGS or GW, would be a little taken aback by an 11 page campaign, and might not be excited about it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Give it 6 months to a year. We'll be back to Chapterhouse era GW and all us "haters" will be proven right. That's not a prediction, that's a

Spoiler:

spoiler!

proven right about what?

Um, what HBMC (and others) has been saying for quite some time. Nu-GW is the same as old GW just with a new coat of paint.

But... but they have a Facebook page! They reference memes! They've changed guys! Honest!

Could you please reference what good guys there are in terms of companies in our hobby? The ones that still exist and have more than 1 person operating the whole thing, like an amazing bloke that does Reloc Blade. And what makes them good?
As soon as you reference one, I’m sure someone will bring up “that 1 time or numerous times” those examples were aholes.
Are there any other wargaming companies that have their IP leeched? Be it by making proxies, bits or other such things. I can’t think of one. No one is doing alternative sculpts for warmachine or infinity. Because not nearly as much people care about their IP. As soon as PP or Corvus Beli start seeing alternative sculpts for their systems, they’ll start scratching their head about how to stop that competition.

For the sake of the argument - sure, GW hasn’t changed its ways and still keeps its IP close. So? You are right, you win? What makes you revel at the idea, that you’d be right in that scenario?

GW stores not allowing old editions or different games isn't necessarily a new thing.
Playing Horus Heresy in store was a huge point of contention between some of the staff and customers at my local GW just before Betrayal at Calth was released. Some tried to argue that since it wasn't a core GW game that we weren't allowed to play it despite people using plastic vehicles or conversions from regular GW stuff. Heck, even when Calth came out one of the guys tried to argue that we still couldn't because we weren't playing BaC but still a non-GW game. The store manager wasn't on their side since they were a huge 30k fan and told them to stop in case the regulars all got driven away to a different game store.

At one point GW's IP policy included notes about tattoos of Warhammer stuff not being authorized

None of this really looks new to me, GW has always publicly maintained a strict IP policy, even if enforcement has been wonky.

As far as I can tell the new stuff is just the purported complete ban on fan films and animations, which is an obvious attempt to boost Warhammer+. I wouldn't be worried about anything else, all that stuff was pretty much there before and yet they still send review copies to "guy reads book" guy to read page by page on youtube so you can read every letter of text if you want to.

I mean who knows, maybe this does signal some big change and they're going to start trying to enforce all this stuff they didn't before...but I really wouldn't assume it does. This is about kneecapping the competition for Warhammer+, there's no reason to think it's about anything else.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Give it 6 months to a year. We'll be back to Chapterhouse era GW and all us "haters" will be proven right. That's not a prediction, that's a

Spoiler:

spoiler!

proven right about what?

Um, what HBMC (and others) has been saying for quite some time. Nu-GW is the same as old GW just with a new coat of paint.

But... but they have a Facebook page! They reference memes! They've changed guys! Honest!

Could you please reference what good guys there are in terms of companies in our hobby? The ones that still exist and have more than 1 person operating the whole thing, like an amazing bloke that does Reloc Blade. And what makes them good?
As soon as you reference one, I’m sure someone will bring up “that 1 time or numerous times” those examples were aholes.
Are there any other wargaming companies that have their IP leeched? Be it by making proxies, bits or other such things. I can’t think of one. No one is doing alternative sculpts for warmachine or infinity. Because not nearly as much people care about their IP. As soon as PP or Corvus Beli start seeing alternative sculpts for their systems, they’ll start scratching their head about how to stop that competition.

For the sake of the argument - sure, GW hasn’t changed its ways and still keeps its IP close. So? You are right, you win? What makes you revel at the idea, that you’d be right in that scenario?

Wyrd seems pretty good. Good pricing, free rules for everything, good first party app. Can't see why anyone would have a problem with them as a company. Corvus Belli get criticised for their pricing sometimes but their games use way less models than GW.
Privateer Press however are widely criticised (and rightly so) for almost all the exact same things GW get flak for, strangely from the insider talk I've seen its the same problem GW has of terrible upper management. You don't have to go far to find someone with an axe to grind over how PP killed their game with terrible decisions, but they haven't killed the fan made Brawlmachine method of play yet so thumbs up for that.

In any case the reason you don't see third party sculpts/pirated/alternative sculpts stuff from these companies is partly because its hard to steal something the companies give away for free (rules) and as far as I'm aware they don't head down to FLGSs and slap 3rd party minis out of your hand and ban you from the shop. But also because people have a LOT more good faith and so are willing to support the companies. Its almost like treating your customers well makes them less likely to steal/avoid your stuff.

It's mainly that there isn't a market for them. Why would you make clones of PP models when they have only 1/10th the market share or less than GW? X-Wing, Star Was Legion etc do have recasters, they spring up anywhere there's enough demand to be worth the set-up investment.

 Gert wrote:
GW stores not allowing old editions or different games isn't necessarily a new thing.
Playing Horus Heresy in store was a huge point of contention between some of the staff and customers at my local GW just before Betrayal at Calth was released. Some tried to argue that since it wasn't a core GW game that we weren't allowed to play it despite people using plastic vehicles or conversions from regular GW stuff. Heck, even when Calth came out one of the guys tried to argue that we still couldn't because we weren't playing BaC but still a non-GW game. The store manager wasn't on their side since they were a huge 30k fan and told them to stop in case the regulars all got driven away to a different game store.

Which is kind of my point. Those are the actions you'd take if you're actively trying NOT to create a fanbase or community that engages with your games. This downward pressure that GW exhibits on its managers, content creators, and players all sends a message that disincentivizes creativity and engagement.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Gert wrote:
GW stores not allowing old editions or different games isn't necessarily a new thing.
Playing Horus Heresy in store was a huge point of contention between some of the staff and customers at my local GW just before Betrayal at Calth was released. Some tried to argue that since it wasn't a core GW game that we weren't allowed to play it despite people using plastic vehicles or conversions from regular GW stuff. Heck, even when Calth came out one of the guys tried to argue that we still couldn't because we weren't playing BaC but still a non-GW game. The store manager wasn't on their side since they were a huge 30k fan and told them to stop in case the regulars all got driven away to a different game store.

Which is kind of my point. Those are the actions you'd take if you're actively trying NOT to create a fanbase or community that engages with your games. This downward pressure that GW exhibits on its managers, content creators, and players all sends a message that disincentivizes creativity and engagement.

Or they want the engagement to focus on the stuff they're actually selling. Having 30k night at the local GW, which seem chronically short of board space, cuts into the games that are on the shelves. So even if people walk in, and want to start a Lunar Wolves army, they can't!

Again, GW wants to engage with buying customers, not just fans.

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Gert wrote:
GW stores not allowing old editions or different games isn't necessarily a new thing.
Playing Horus Heresy in store was a huge point of contention between some of the staff and customers at my local GW just before Betrayal at Calth was released. Some tried to argue that since it wasn't a core GW game that we weren't allowed to play it despite people using plastic vehicles or conversions from regular GW stuff. Heck, even when Calth came out one of the guys tried to argue that we still couldn't because we weren't playing BaC but still a non-GW game. The store manager wasn't on their side since they were a huge 30k fan and told them to stop in case the regulars all got driven away to a different game store.

Which is kind of my point. Those are the actions you'd take if you're actively trying NOT to create a fanbase or community that engages with your games. This downward pressure that GW exhibits on its managers, content creators, and players all sends a message that disincentivizes creativity and engagement.

Or they want the engagement to focus on the stuff they're actually selling. Having 30k night at the local GW, which seem chronically short of board space, cuts into the games that are on the shelves. So even if people walk in, and want to start a Lunar Wolves army, they can't!

Again, GW wants to engage with buying customers, not just fans.

They're selling Aeronautica!!! They're selling 30k!!! It seems self defeating to me.

 stonehorse wrote:
Getting a real sense of Deja vu from all this.

GW have always been this way, they just managed to convince people that they were 'friendly' with their Social Media presence.

THIS.

Guys, this is GW. They didn't change, they just pretended to play nice for a while to get you all buying their gak again. As someone who was on the receiving end of this last time, I've been sitting here posting that GW's behavior was becoming more and more like the Bad Old Days of ten years ago when they were threatening their fans for supporting them.

Now, low and behold, I knew what I was talking about, and here we are again.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Gert wrote:
GW stores not allowing old editions or different games isn't necessarily a new thing.
Playing Horus Heresy in store was a huge point of contention between some of the staff and customers at my local GW just before Betrayal at Calth was released. Some tried to argue that since it wasn't a core GW game that we weren't allowed to play it despite people using plastic vehicles or conversions from regular GW stuff. Heck, even when Calth came out one of the guys tried to argue that we still couldn't because we weren't playing BaC but still a non-GW game. The store manager wasn't on their side since they were a huge 30k fan and told them to stop in case the regulars all got driven away to a different game store.

Which is kind of my point. Those are the actions you'd take if you're actively trying NOT to create a fanbase or community that engages with your games. This downward pressure that GW exhibits on its managers, content creators, and players all sends a message that disincentivizes creativity and engagement.

Or they want the engagement to focus on the stuff they're actually selling. Having 30k night at the local GW, which seem chronically short of board space, cuts into the games that are on the shelves. So even if people walk in, and want to start a Lunar Wolves army, they can't!

Again, GW wants to engage with buying customers, not just fans.

They're selling Aeronautica!!! They're selling 30k!!! It seems self defeating to me.

It comes down to the individual manager. A lot of GW stores don't allow Forge World because you can't buy it via the store (except Warhammer World). They don't want someone to see a Heresy game or a Leviathan, ask about it, have to tell them they can't grab it off the shelf and will need to go online. That'd still be a sale for the company, but not the store itself. "Well I know I'm a few thousand pounds short of my target, but it's because a lot of my customers are 30k players and all their money went to the Forge World website" probably won't go over well on a performance call.

If they start releasing a lot of plastic Heresy kits that may change.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Getting a real sense of Deja vu from all this.

GW have always been this way, they just managed to convince people that they were 'friendly' with their Social Media presence.

THIS.

Guys, this is GW. They didn't change, they just pretended to play nice for a while to get you all buying their gak again. As someone who was on the receiving end of this last time, I've been sitting here posting that GW's behavior was becoming more and more like the Bad Old Days of ten years ago when they were threatening their fans for supporting them.

Now, low and behold, I knew what I was talking about, and here we are again.

Just what is it those against this whole thing want? For GW to let anyone do anything they like with their IP?