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It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.
Because the Inherent racism in the title we'll ignore because its fun to blame "whites" and its impossible for non-'whites' to actually fit the paradigm. Right?
It is racist. Totally. The lack of self awareness is astounding.
History will not look kindly on this nonsense."whitey" is racist asf.
Another case of holier than thou, do as I say not as I do.
I have no respect for that. I'm out
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:01:44
Gert wrote: Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.
I actually have struggle to get it to work on dakka. Not sure if I doing it wrong or that the iPad format makes it hard or what :(
Nope, it's just super intuitive for people not used to code or markup language. Essentially, you have to find the first closing bracket ] and then select everything afterwards EXCEPT the final /quote tag. Hit the spoiler button afterwards.
Alternatively, you can type the spoiler and /spoiler tags manually where you want them.
Be aware that you cannot properly spoiler posts which already contain spoilers - in that case it usually would be better to just delete all quotes from the original post and just leave whatever the person you are responding to wrote last.
Thanks let’s see if it works!
Lol, I got something wrong. I will work it out I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:52:40
Because its going that way it "Seems", for example the new Plague war book has a marines commenting on the fact the primaris are more progressive than their older marine brothers when it comes to new technology and tactics, then throw in the deus ex machina of mary sue cawl and the resurgence of new (not re discovered) tech for the space marines and imperium at large, it "seems" like its not longer teetering on the edge but having a massive resurgence.
This is purely down to GW mishandling as usual though, Chaos being the big bad but always losing and having a joke of a codex really does not help either, they need to hand some permanent and severe defeats to the imperium, kill of Dante, Calgar or some other major characters or a major world like Fenris, give the bad guys some damned teeth
That is what I am saying, it is not a lore progression, but more the fact that someone at GW wanted to reset the setting for 8th, found Cawl , a character that did not exist before, to be a great to be a great vessal for it, and here we are now with the ideas. If GW went with Cawl and primaris the way it should have went and according to how the setting works, there would be a gigantic civil war spanning all branches of imperial society. I have no idea what the writers were thinking writing the 8th ed and later lore the way they did. It is a world where people can't turn a wrench on a bolt, if they are not ordained to do it. Get shot for seeing the wrong things and turning a 10k year old rhino on and off, is considered a religious event . And somehow the same people who are not okey, with non marines using Land Raiders or the Church having non mercenary regiments as their fighting force, are okey with gene modifications of a projects done by the Emperor himself.
Plus there is the rest of the stuff like making planets being uneaten by nids in a couple of years etc.
Because the Inherent racism in the title we'll ignore because its fun to blame "whites" and its impossible for non-'whites' to actually fit the paradigm. Right?
It is racist. Totally. The lack of self awareness is astounding.
History will not look kindly on this nonsense."whitey" is racist asf.
But there are no "whites" in w40k. Same way we don't have minoan bull worshipers or ancient proto egyptians today.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:01:14
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Because its going that way it "Seems", for example the new Plague war book has a marines commenting on the fact the primaris are more progressive than their older marine brothers when it comes to new technology and tactics, then throw in the deus ex machina of mary sue cawl and the resurgence of new (not re discovered) tech for the space marines and imperium at large, it "seems" like its not longer teetering on the edge but having a massive resurgence.
This is purely down to GW mishandling as usual though, Chaos being the big bad but always losing and having a joke of a codex really does not help either, they need to hand some permanent and severe defeats to the imperium, kill of Dante, Calgar or some other major characters or a major world like Fenris, give the bad guys some damned teeth
That is what I am saying, it is not a lore progression, but more the fact that someone at GW wanted to reset the setting for 8th, found Cawl , a character that did not exist before, to be a great to be a great vessal for it, and here we are now with the ideas. If GW went with Cawl and primaris the way it should have went and according to how the setting works, there would be a gigantic civil war spanning all branches of imperial society. I have no idea what the writers were thinking writing the 8th ed and later lore the way they did. It is a world where people can't turn a wrench on a bolt, if they are not ordained to do it. Get shot for seeing the wrong things and turning a 10k year old rhino on and off, is considered a religious event . And somehow the same people who are not okey, with non marines using Land Raiders or the Church having non mercenary regiments as their fighting force, are okey with gene modifications of a projects done by the Emperor himself.
Plus there is the rest of the stuff like making planets being uneaten by nids in a couple of years etc.
Not all conflict needs to be out and out civil war. Also the actual recent novels from BL do seem to be setting up for increasing friction between Guilliman and his progressives vs. the more status quo or reactionary Imperials, especially as Guilliman starts changing or bending the rules in the name of expediency or practicality. It's more of a shadow war.
The reactionaries for example destroy a Retribution class battleship, the sister ship of the one Guilliman was on, by arranging the timetable for a plasma engine test to occur for an engine, and sabotaging a precise location to disable the magnetic containment fields of the exhaust, resulting in a jet of plasma jetting into a half-full fuel store, which had the right mix for a detonation to then knock off a reactor regulator leading to the reactor detonating. This then also detonated the warp engines which were undergoing a conveniently rearranged testing, with the resulting final explosion destroying the battleship, 6 other ships, heavy damage to 17 others, and damage to orbital facilities.
One has to remember that Guilliman is not just an action superhero kind of figure that one can easily rebel against. As a Primarch there is a religious aura associated with him, like that associated with an archangel. In an Imperium structured around revering the Emperor and people that have come into contact with the Emperor, what cultural and psychological barriers are there against outright rebellion or violence against an individual that has a claim to being a son of the Emperor and who has been given permission by the Custodes to wield the Emperor's sword? It's not just about fear of him being able to kill you, but that in opposing Guilliman you might be opposing the Emperor, and that could mean bad things for your soul. The average Imperial would care more about that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:15:32
Got it. Authors not allowed agency. Have to write to tick boxes of representation agenda.
Get angry at people who see this as a cultural stifle cult
Do you mindlessly consume media without lending a critical eye to any of it concerning how it could be improved?
Have you never watched a movie or read a book and came out thinking that there were problems with it that could be addressed? Never had an issue with 40k's lore that you'd prefer they changed?
Because its going that way it "Seems", for example the new Plague war book has a marines commenting on the fact the primaris are more progressive than their older marine brothers when it comes to new technology and tactics, then throw in the deus ex machina of mary sue cawl and the resurgence of new (not re discovered) tech for the space marines and imperium at large, it "seems" like its not longer teetering on the edge but having a massive resurgence.
This is purely down to GW mishandling as usual though, Chaos being the big bad but always losing and having a joke of a codex really does not help either, they need to hand some permanent and severe defeats to the imperium, kill of Dante, Calgar or some other major characters or a major world like Fenris, give the bad guys some damned teeth
That is what I am saying, it is not a lore progression, but more the fact that someone at GW wanted to reset the setting for 8th, found Cawl , a character that did not exist before, to be a great to be a great vessal for it, and here we are now with the ideas. If GW went with Cawl and primaris the way it should have went and according to how the setting works, there would be a gigantic civil war spanning all branches of imperial society. I have no idea what the writers were thinking writing the 8th ed and later lore the way they did. It is a world where people can't turn a wrench on a bolt, if they are not ordained to do it. Get shot for seeing the wrong things and turning a 10k year old rhino on and off, is considered a religious event . And somehow the same people who are not okey, with non marines using Land Raiders or the Church having non mercenary regiments as their fighting force, are okey with gene modifications of a projects done by the Emperor himself.
Plus there is the rest of the stuff like making planets being uneaten by nids in a couple of years etc.
Because the Inherent racism in the title we'll ignore because its fun to blame "whites" and its impossible for non-'whites' to actually fit the paradigm. Right?
It is racist. Totally. The lack of self awareness is astounding.
History will not look kindly on this nonsense."whitey" is racist asf.
But there are no "whites" in w40k. Same way we don't have minoan bull worshipers or ancient proto egyptians today.
Yes because the ironically self unaware racistly titled trope model doesn't make any sense in 40k. It only makes sense to those looking for a problem that doesn't exist, those who misrepresent a clear homage and nod to the steppe warriors, same crowd who doesn't have any clue that light/white/pale/fair call it what have you skin IS A THING for mongols, turkics, steppe warriors in general, and their ignorance of that and subsequent false outrage is actually kind of funny
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:13:58
This goes way beyond my understanding of english I have to say. Do people really think that all the great khans and kaggans were 100% one race, and there for should look as Terry Prachet said it "look like a peasent of a given folk" ? Because in case of nomadic nations like Turks, Tatars, Mongols etc "racial" purity was never a thing.
And trying to transfer things that never existed on a fictional scifi setting just makes my head hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iracundus 799882 11182532 wrote:Not all conflict needs to be out and out civil war. Also the actual recent novels from BL do seem to be setting up for increasing friction between Guilliman and his progressives vs. the more status quo or reactionary Imperials, especially as Guilliman starts changing or bending the rules in the name of expediency or practicality. It's more of a shadow war.
In an authoritarian sociaty there is no other way. The state or the organisation in power, can not accept the existsance of disonance, because the very existance of a different point of view proves to the society that the goverment is both weak and probably wrong. Shadow wars happen between two separate entities, like lets say cold war or western/easter catholic conflicts. They never happen inside one organisation. The moment a bishop, western or eastern, starts having new ideas, the rest are going to gang up on him. And being and old leader returning ends always in assasination. And this one the writers of the new lore actually did show. So we can say that they are not always divorced from how sociaties work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:26:46
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Got it. Authors not allowed agency. Have to write to tick boxes of representation agenda.
Get angry at people who see this as a cultural stifle cult
Do you mindlessly consume media without lending a critical eye to any of it concerning how it could be improved?
Have you never watched a movie or read a book and came out thinking that there were problems with it that could be addressed? Never had an issue with 40k's lore that you'd prefer they changed?
Just because I respect an artist's freedom of expression does not mean I am a mindless consumer of media. Ridiculous and insulting argument.
Someone wrote something bad, or had something in it that I didn't personally like.....boo hoo....it's not my duty to give a crap to tell that artist how to do their job. That is arrogant and narcissistic asf
What is the point. THe die is cast....they already produced it?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:51:30
To add something to this (IMO) very overblown topic:
In my eyes Space Marines - just like orks - have never really been male of female. They were designed to create the most strength, withhold the most punishment, have the best reflexes. The reason they ended up looking male is very likely just out of scientific pragmatism.
As for "women have no way to represent themselves on the tabletop" - I have never played against anyone who created a miniature of themselves, but sure. However, your list is suspiciously short. AM, Inquisitors and Assassin all have numerous female models and characters in the lore, Imperial Knights have both male and female pilots and their houses do not discriminate between gender for any office, there have been tons of female princeps piloting titans, and if you fancy BFG you have females in every position of the navy, too. Since PA it's even possible to run sisters of silence as part of your custodes army again. As for xenos, the tau supreme commander is a woman and you have to do the job that is assigned to your caste irrespective of your genders.
So inside the imperium, a woman can be anything up to a high lord of terra except a space marine, which is not because it's boyz only club, but because the geneseed kills them. Which kind of makes sense when you look issues scientists are facing today when creating medicine for females. If cures for regular illnesses have vastly higher risks to kill women over men, it's not surprising a geneseed specifically engineered to reshape the entire body of a man (and even kills a good portion of them) fails catastrophically when implemented in a person with a different organic structure.
The only factions which make it hard for a woman to represent themselves are orks (brawling fungi), nids(bugs) and necrons(skeletons) - though my wife insists that the hive mind is indeed a female entity. Oddly enough, among the female players I've encountered, nids and orks are among the most popular armies, while IG and Tau are not very popular despite having plenty of female representation.
On the corset thing, I don't even... though I'm very sure though that there are quite a number of male eldar wearing corsets.
About Khan, I've always assumed him to be Mongolian, because of the name, the look of his models and because his sometimes smug, sometimes wise, sometimes bad-ass attitude fit very well with how Dschingis and Genghis Khan are usually portrayed in historical movies. And let's face it, that's probably where GW got their inspiration from anyways.
Or in other words - I don't think the setting is inherently racist or sexist. Everyone being equally worthless is a big theme behind 40k.
Some of the content? Definitely. It's almost stupid how every novel has a beautiful women describe in detail how super-hot an astartes is, but he doesn't care because 404. But that's a different topic.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Gert wrote: @GoldenHorde Yeah that's not even close to true. "Your Dudes" and making a version of yourself in your army had been a pretty big thing for 40k since like always.
People are tyranids or murder bots? That's a very limited understanding of "your dudes". "Your dudes" isn't about self-insertion, it's about creating an army that's yours. Could be about fluff, could be about conversions, could be about paint. It is not about self-inserting yourself into your army.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Just because I respect an artist's freedom of expression does not mean I am a mindless consumer of media. Ridiculous and insulting argument.
Someone wrote something bad, or had something in it that I didn't personally like.....boo hoo....it's not my duty to give a crap to tell that artist how to do their job. That is arrogant and narcissistic asf
What is the point. THe die is cast....they already produced it?
Okay first of all I'm afraid you don't get to whine about people insulting you after all of the posts insulting others and making wild assumptions about other people in this thread. You simply have willingly forsaken your right to be perceived as a reasonable or respectable adult.
Second of all that was a very long-winded way to say "Yes, I do in fact mindlessly consume media without any critical thought" if you think the very act of criticizing or assessing art has no place within discussions about it.
Why are you even here my friend? What value could someone of this perspective possibly provide to any discussion about fictional media?
People are tyranids or murder bots? That's a very limited understanding of "your dudes". "Your dudes" isn't about self-insertion, it's about creating an army that's yours. Could be about fluff, could be about conversions, could be about paint. It is not about self-inserting yourself into your army.
"Creating an army that's yours" does not preclude creating an army that is representative of, in this instance, your gender. It very easily could be about "self-inserting" some part of yourself into your army and to suggest otherwise is gakky gatekeeping my friend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 08:59:31
Just because I respect an artist's freedom of expression does not mean I am a mindless consumer of media. Ridiculous and insulting argument.
Someone wrote something bad, or had something in it that I didn't personally like.....boo hoo....it's not my duty to give a crap to tell that artist how to do their job. That is arrogant and narcissistic asf
What is the point. THe die is cast....they already produced it?
Okay first of all I'm afraid you don't get to whine about people insulting you after all of the posts insulting others and making wild assumptions about other people in this thread. You simply have willingly forsaken your right to be perceived as a reasonable or respectable adult.
Second of all that was a very long-winded way to say "Yes, I do in fact mindlessly consume media without any critical thought" if you think the very act of criticizing or assessing art has no place within discussions about it.
Why are you even here my friend? What value could someone of this perspective possibly provide to any discussion about fictional media?
Don't make a strawman.. There is a difference between being critical and discussing things (which is what we are already doing) and actually demanding authors do things and removing authors agency.
People are demanding X,Y or Z without regard to the artist, the art or the context of the artwork, instead bringing in their own outside AGENDA and ENFORCING IT upon the artwork.
That is not critique, that's censorship with an authoritarianist bent
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:06:40
Gert wrote: @GoldenHorde Yeah that's not even close to true. "Your Dudes" and making a version of yourself in your army had been a pretty big thing for 40k since like always.
People are tyranids or murder bots? That's a very limited understanding of "your dudes". "Your dudes" isn't about self-insertion, it's about creating an army that's yours. Could be about fluff, could be about conversions, could be about paint. It is not about self-inserting yourself into your army.
It’s a bit of both, I have seen a few times with players making themselves, friends and others on the table top.
Making something your own and expression it can be putting a little off yourself into it, the same way that players can get into and make a tyranids swarm there own and express though them color and style of there own.
But there is a heavy part of that in 40k, making things your own. I would even think a lot of the alternatives models are about providing things that GW doesn’t.
It’s a setting and tone at the forefront of the marketing, and it’s just way harder if you want a specific style and have to spend more effort to get there to make it your army. And then face the fact that you now need to ask permission for tournaments and you face the issue off being unofficial.
Which is probably a whole issue off itself in this part of the hobby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:10:55
Don't make a strawman.. There is a difference between being critical and discussing things (which is what we are already doing) and actually demanding authors do things and removing authors agency.
How very interesting that you see at least one woman (who you assumed was a man and accused of having patronizing concern towards females because of your own sexist preconceptions) and one or two others saying things like "There should be more positive female representation in this game" and "The character based off of Genghis Khan appears white to me in this FW image and should look more ethnically Mongolian (I personally can't really comment on the veracity of this claim in particular)" and took it as them removing the author's agency. I didn't know that these posters had rifles to the heads of GW's writers and were forcing them to cater to their whims.
To me it just looked like a few posters giving their perspectives on how the setting could be improved in this way or that way and then one particular poster getting hysterical over it and insulting them over it.
Don't make a strawman.. There is a difference between being critical and discussing things (which is what we are already doing) and actually demanding authors do things and removing authors agency.
People are demanding X,Y or Z without regard to the artist, the art or the context of the artwork, instead bringing in their own outside AGENDA and ENFORCING IT upon the artwork.
That is not critique, that's censorship with an authoritarianist bent
Stop editing your posts several times. Don't post again until the post is fully ready.
And word? Show me where anyone advocated for authors to be forced by legislature or government to write how said posters want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:10:35
People are tyranids or murder bots? That's a very limited understanding of "your dudes". "Your dudes" isn't about self-insertion, it's about creating an army that's yours. Could be about fluff, could be about conversions, could be about paint. It is not about self-inserting yourself into your army.
You didn't read what I wrote.
"Your Dudes" and SI Characters are two separate things and I specified them as separate in my but they are very much connected concepts. My Deathwatch for example are all "My Dudes" in that I have given them all names and small amounts of background. However, I also have myself and my hobby group as units/models reflecting our Deathwatch RPG Characters which is very much a case of SI. Many people choose to make their army leaders reflections of themselves in model form. I'm not claiming that individuals are Tyranids or Necrons, it's disingenuous to suggest I am. What I am saying is that in many instances hobbyists, especially more narrative driven ones, will place a fictional version of themselves at the head of their army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote: I didn't know that these posters had rifles to the heads of GW's writers and were forcing them to cater to their whims.
We've been rumbled lads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:13:54
Worth remembering that authorial intent is at best a polite suggestion when dealing with a corporate-owned intellectual property. The vision of any author is going to get a lot of meddling from people who are not artists of any kind before you or I ever see their work.
Gert wrote: I'm not claiming that individuals are Tyranids or Necrons, it's disingenuous to suggest I am.
My apologies, I was not clear. I meant to query how one can self-insert into a Tyranid and Necrons army when they are so darned alien (well, 3rd edition Necrons at least. Ward necrons are more human than alien). It seems to run contrary to the idea of "your dudes" being primarily a self-insertion mechanism.
What I am saying is that in many instances hobbyists, especially more narrative driven ones, will place a fictional version of themselves at the head of their army.
Curious, I must be an exception then. As well as most other players I've met. Then again, I haven't run into many narrative types.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:30:37
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Don't make a strawman.. There is a difference between being critical and discussing things (which is what we are already doing) and actually demanding authors do things and removing authors agency.
How very interesting that you see at least one woman (who you assumed was a man and accused of having patronizing concern towards females because of your own sexist preconceptions) and one or two others saying things like "There should be more positive female representation in this game" and "The character based off of Genghis Khan appears white to me in this FW image and should look more ethnically Mongolian (I personally can't really comment on the veracity of this claim in particular)" and took it as them removing the author's agency. I didn't know that these posters had rifles to the heads of GW's writers and were forcing them to cater to their whims.
A female patronising females is a thng. Happens all the time. I called it out, because in my opinion it was patronising to other women as a whole. I don't care if you think that's an illegal move or sexist. It is not. Feel free to disagree.
Stop editing your posts several times. Don't post again until the post is fully ready.
And word? Show me where anyone advocated for authors to be forced by legislature or government to write how said posters want.
I guess you think being authoritarian only comes from the government. Maybe confusing the meaning of the word Authoritarian with Authoritarian government?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:27:27
A female patronising females is a thng. Happens all the time. I called it out, because in my opinion it was patronising to other women as a whole. I don't care if you think that's an illegal move or sexist. It is not. Feel free to disagree.
You can lie to yourself my friend, but you can't lie to me. That is not what you were saying.
I guess you think being authoritarian only comes from the government lol
authoritarian adjective
au·thor·i·tar·i·an | \ ȯ-ˌthȯr-ə-ˈter-ē-ən , ə-, -ˌthär- \
Definition of authoritarian
1: of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority
had authoritarian parents
2: of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people
an authoritarian regime
Cite the authority these posters advocated blind submission towards.
A female patronising females is a thng. Happens all the time. I called it out, because in my opinion it was patronising to other women as a whole. I don't care if you think that's an illegal move or sexist. It is not. Feel free to disagree.
You can lie to yourself my friend, but you can't lie to me. That is not what you were saying.
We already went through the allegory of what was claimed as fetishism as being 'poor to females' or whatnot. As I mentioned and another poster agreed, females enjoy fetishism and I found the sentiment of fetishism by default being poor to woman as patronising to women.
and it was because it was a default statement with no nuance at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:33:41
What I am saying is that in many instances hobbyists, especially more narrative driven ones, will place a fictional version of themselves at the head of their army.
Curious, I must be an exception then. As well as most other players I've met.
Then again, I haven't run into many narrative types.
A fictional version of ones self doesn’t have to be a one to one representation. It’s fantasy, so you can make a characterthats yourself if you where said thing.
D&D players makes characters based on themselves all the time, even if they are not elves tieflings and dragon borne.
Just as representation doesn’t have to be human to be important or good.
Necrons are a strange thing to be gendered so much, and yet GW did. The representation there I think is way important, and I think it would be awesome to see more off it.
Monsters as well have this issue, it’s ether male or not is fairly common. Which I think has actually been odd and and modern thing.
Lots of older myths and legends have more equal representation.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: My apologies, I was not clear. I meant to query how one can self-insert into a Tyranid and Necrons army when they are so darned alien (well, 3rd edition Necrons at least. Ward necrons are more human than alien). It seems to run contrary to the idea of "your dudes" being primarily a self-insertion mechanism.
Nid's are the exception to the rule. Every other faction has enough character and sentience that SI is possible. Obviously, while a GSC Patriarch might not be the best choice a Magus or Primus would be fine as they still retain free will (or at least the illusion of it).
I apologise if that reply came across as aggressive, the whole "but Nid's and Crons can't SI, checkmate" happens a bit too much for my liking and it's usually someone trying to be deliberately irritating.
Curious, I must be an exception then. As well as most other players I've met.
Then again, I haven't run into many narrative types.
I used to see it a lot more in the past but not so much nowadays.
In an authoritarian sociaty there is no other way. The state or the organisation in power, can not accept the existsance of disonance, because the very existance of a different point of view proves to the society that the goverment is both weak and probably wrong. Shadow wars happen between two separate entities, like lets say cold war or western/easter catholic conflicts. They never happen inside one organisation. The moment a bishop, western or eastern, starts having new ideas, the rest are going to gang up on him. And being and old leader returning ends always in assasination. And this one the writers of the new lore actually did show. So we can say that they are not always divorced from how sociaties work.
That's just plain incorrect and wrong. There are plenty of shadow wars that happen within a single organization. We have plenty of historical dynastic intrigues, all happening within the same government. In more modern times there are still such conflicts within authoritarian parties such as for example within the Chinese Communist Party or within North Korea. The public only sees the final effects when all the pieces fall into place and one side finally loses, when major members of the losing side or clique are taken to trial and then executed, placed under house arrest, or have to flee to exile. All the while they present a seemingly united polite front for outside observers, because it would not look good for the organization to be seen at war with itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:39:11
It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.
except that the Khan's skin colour is beside the point.
First of all, ALL of the Primarchs are "Strangers from outside who are better then the natives are at their own culture" every single fuckine one of them.
And they're not better because they're white. Skin colour is completely irrelevant here, and everyone knows it. they're better because they're geneticly engineered supermen.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Curious, I must be an exception then. As well as most other players I've met. Then again, I haven't run into many narrative types.
I used to see it a lot more in the past but not so much nowadays.
Oh perhaps. Rogue Trader and 2nd edition were more akin to RPGs, weren't they? I started in the tail end of 3rd edition and SI army leaders were not a thing in my area. I do vaguely recall seeing some custom army fluff though. I do certainly remember seeing conversions, but I don't think they had much to do with their owner's inner nature.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:51:18
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.
except that the Khan's skin colour is beside the point.
First of all, ALL of the Primarchs are "Strangers from outside who are better then the natives are at their own culture" every single fuckine one of them.
And they're not better because they're white. Skin colour is completely irrelevant here, and everyone knows it. they're better because they're geneticly engineered supermen.
They don't care that it is irrelevant, they make it a melodrama no matter what ironically its kind of an complicated unaware racist hyper skin colour obsessed behaviour in itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 09:47:13
Just because I respect an artist's freedom of expression does not mean I am a mindless consumer of media. Ridiculous and insulting argument.
Someone wrote something bad, or had something in it that I didn't personally like.....boo hoo....it's not my duty to give a crap to tell that artist how to do their job. That is arrogant and narcissistic asf
What is the point. THe die is cast....they already produced it?
Well they can do their job bad. Effort is not the same as results. And the end game is always more important, then what ever someone worked hard, or not, on something. And I get it if the stuff the artists did was free. If someone writes a fanfiction or does an art I don't like, it doesn't matter, they can do what ever they want with their time. The problems start, when I pay for something or when something is created to be sold. The job of lets say a movie, is to generate income, boost sales of toys and merch , in a way it is often secondary how the movie is. But if the movie or other art in question impacts the sales in a negative way. And I would say that making buying customers unhappy is that. Then both the art and the artists have a problem. And it is what it is, is very strange way of thinking. At least to my people. We were being convinced for a long time that the world is what it is, and that we should just switch our culture, religion, languge etc to different ones. Someone how it didn't work that well. And I think that people around the world are similar.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.
except that the Khan's skin colour is beside the point.
First of all, ALL of the Primarchs are "Strangers from outside who are better then the natives are at their own culture" every single fuckine one of them.
And they're not better because they're white. Skin colour is completely irrelevant here, and everyone knows it. they're better because they're geneticly engineered supermen.
I think that trope linked is specifically about that.
It’s also a case of Tone within the setting coming at odds to the tone outside.
Within the setting it makes sense, and even can push the ideas of what the primarchs are.
Outside looking in, and this is where GW is probably focused on in modernisation, that it’s a tired story trope that a lot of people have seen before.
And with other culture issues, It doesn’t really hold anything unique or interesting on its own. Considering it’s a visual medium, models first, art and then the written books coming at the end. It is of concern to GW when so much of it was written first in a time where a lot of people show little concern to the issues it may present.
It may have even better to try and tackle it head on in the setting to make people know that GW is trying to do it right and well.
That's just plain incorrect and wrong. There are plenty of shadow wars that happen within a single organization. We have plenty of historical dynastic intrigues, all happening within the same government. In more modern times there are still such conflicts within authoritarian parties such as for example within the Chinese Communist Party or within North Korea. The public only sees the final effects when all the pieces fall into place and one side finally loses, when major members of the losing side or clique are taken to trial and then executed, placed under house arrest, or have to flee to exile. All the while they present a seemingly united polite front for outside observers, because it would not look good for the organization to be seen at war with itself.
A dynasty is not an organisation. And even in case of those the end result of everyone conflict in those is a purge. The last kim dies, his son takes over, one of the first thing he does is order the execution of his uncle and imprisoment of his aunt. Communists parties are well known for their purges, and there was nothing shadow or hidden about it. In my own country we had one in 1949, then another one in 1956, then another one in 1968, then another one in 1971, then we actually did have a covert operation made by the military to place agents in Wien'a and secure private companies after communism fall. But all of that shadown stuff culminated in war state being declared in 1981. And we had it easy comparing to other places in the soviet block. All shadow wars in places like Hungary, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia would always end in either local purges or soviet or soviet block intervention.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
let’s see if it works!
Oddly enough, among the female players I've encountered, nids and orks are among the most popular armies, while 
~4100
~1660
That is not what you were saying. 
