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 Overread wrote:


A lot of this is also complicated by the fact that over the last 10 or so years we've seen the rise of things like Patreon where fan created works go from being just a fan making a fan work for fun; into something that generates significant income to the point of being their primary income source (or a significant income source at the very least). This significantly changes some things when it comes to fan works.

That's the key point here - if someone is just doing fanwork for fun there's no reason not to carry on making it. If you get a cease and desist you desist. That's a shame, but y'know, you find a new hobby. But once you make it your job, or a significant income source, then absolutely, you can't take the risk any more. You can't risk not being able to afford the rent.

And that's always the risk you take if you base your living on someone elses' work. Should it be a risk? I don't honestly know. I don't think it's actually that clear cut. Should you be able to make your own fan animation in the Warhammer universe? We mostly think yes? But should you be able to make your own Harry Potter film or novel? We mostly think that would be too far? But I don't know exactly where the middle is.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

Don't be naive.

This "But they didn't make him do it!" line of argument that Sarouan is peddling in his desperate attempts to protect GW is so disingenuous as to be actually insulting. I'm surprised to find you following along.

In my view its not "protecting" GW. GW has no more nor less rights than they did before they updated their legal disclaimer. The legal situation hasn't changed and GW has no more nor less protection nor right to act. The only difference is that GW is more likely to now act upon the legal powers that they have. Accepting that we might never know what they are unless something went to court.

That said as noted this isn't just fan-works anymore. These are serious businesses making money off GW derived content. The situation and the playingfield have changed, however from all that we've seen so far GW aren't doing this like they did before. This isn't the hammer and fist approach toward shutting everything down. GW is being more sensible with what they legally can do and is more likely to also turn around and offer work (esp for the video content)/contracts to the content creators.

This is a very different approach to how things happened before; and as noted the field for the fan creators is also very different.

 Overread wrote:

In my view its not "protecting" GW.

It's certainly not. I just don't like people distorting facts to fit their own narrative, no matter how right they think they are. They don't make themselves any better than the ones they criticize and think they are the devil or something by doing that, IMHO.

If GW actually sent a cease and desist letter leading to TTS forced closure, I would have understood the reactions. But we're not even close to that here.

Like I said, I believe it's really a shame the TTS guy didn't try to talk to GW before taking that decision. Maybe he would have had a good surprise, like the "not nighthaunt" kickstarter. But he's clearly afraid to do so / thinks it's a lost cause. Maybe he'll change his mind later, who knows.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

Don't be naive.

This "But they didn't make him do it!" line of argument that Sarouan is peddling in his desperate attempts to protect GW is so disingenuous as to be actually insulting. I'm surprised to find you following along.

It feels like a lot of people who are saying that GW didn't directly do anything actively don't want to understand that a chilling effect is something that happens even if some entity doesn't actively interfere. From the wikipedia link:

In a legal context, a chilling effect is the inhibition or discouragement of the legitimate exercise of natural and legal rights by the threat of legal sanction.[1] A chilling effect may be caused by legal actions such as the passing of a law, the decision of a court, or the threat of a lawsuit; any legal action that would cause people to hesitate to exercise a legitimate right (freedom of speech or otherwise) for fear of legal repercussions. When that fear is brought about by the threat of a libel lawsuit, it is called libel chill.[2] A lawsuit initiated specifically for the purpose of creating a chilling effect may be called a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation ("SLAPP").

"Chilling" in this context normally implies an undesirable slowing. Outside the legal context in common usage; any coercion or threat of coercion (or other unpleasantries) can have a chilling effect on a group of people regarding a specific behavior, and often can be statistically measured or be plainly observed.

It seems like GW didn't do much this time around but all these changes in aggregate seem to have created a chilling effect in the fan creator community (GW wanting to start their own streaming service, people getting hired or otherwise stopping their releases, people knowing GW's history with IP enforcement,…). For TTS this reached a tipping point and they have chosen to stop making further videos until they feel that it's safe again. Because of all the individual elements surrounding this issue, GW didn't even need to directly threaten them with a lawsuit or some other way to enforce their IP rights.

Like somebody faking a punch to your face, it can still make you flinch even if they didn't actually hit you. Different people have different levels of tolerance for that type of "but I didn't even touch you" games and GW has a history of playing around in that way (and sometimes even hitting people).

Isn't GW encouraging people to report perceived copyright infringement? That probably doesn't help matters.

We've definitely seen this chilling effect in 3d print Patreons, a lot of creators are pausing for a month or two to let this all shake out.

I can understand pausing the relevant content on the channel in lights of the recent law text update on GW's website. Just as a precaution.

Now the content creator should get in contact with GW and ask about their stance towards them. (Something you might want to do as soon as you start earning money with somebody else's work...)

There's really no reason to be angry at anyone before such a talk happened and we know the outcome.

I think the analogies are perhaps getting a little daft

And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.

Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.

So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?

 Overread wrote:
I think the analogies are perhaps getting a little daft

Well, not really. What GW did is the legalese equivalent of unholstering a gun and putting it on the table.

They might not do anything with it. But they also might.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.

So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .
Its just one Step back to old gw at a time

Anyway, seeing at the comments on TTS channel, it's clear that the main caucus is "how dare GW did that to you", so the guy will certainly not change his mind by reading them. All it's doing is comforting him in his decision.

It's to the point of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, at this stage.

Heh, whatever. If people like to hurt themselves so much than they'll ignore basic logic and facts, who am I to try to force them to see what they don't want to look at.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.

So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?

It's objectively not the same policy.
The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Now it's "no fan animations at all, zero tolerance".
Shortly before implementing that change to their policy they shut down several well known animators, such as Astartes and SODAZ.
So it's easy to see why a change is being perceived.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the analogies are perhaps getting a little daft

Well, not really. What GW did is the legalese equivalent of unholstering a gun and putting it on the table.

They might not do anything with it. But they also might.

Not exactly, what GW did was walk straight into a room full of 40k animators, put a loaded gun on a table and loudly proclaim that they're going to now use it to shoot anyone that makes 40k animations, unless they kneel before them.

Seeing people bail and claiming GW had nothing to do with it in such a situation is pretty daft and ignorant.

That would be more a matter of degree ^^

Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

So far, GW has done nothing of that. But hey, keep building that fake narrative of yours to consolidate your own beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative

Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative

Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?

Sadly, we are to this stage now...GW haters don't care about facts anymore. They just spin them so that it comforts their beliefs.

Proofs, true evidence...that doesn't matter. Low salaries to creative designers become close to poverty wages, content creator deciding to put his own channel on hiatus becomes forced closure by evil GW, people pointing facts become GW protectors.

It's not because the cause is different that the means can't be used in the same despicable way.

Sarouan wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative

Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?

Sadly, we are to this stage now...GW haters don't care about facts anymore. They just spin them so that it comforts their beliefs.

Proofs, true evidence...that doesn't matter. Low salaries to creative designers become close to poverty wages, content creator deciding to put his own channel on hiatus becomes forced closure by evil GW, people pointing facts become GW protectors.

It's not because the cause is different that the means can't be used in the same despicable way.

...

Okay, pardon the bluntness but: I meant you. You're literally going fake new, fake news, get destroyed by logic and facts!


Jesus.

 MJRyder wrote:
Goodness me there is a lot of overreaction in this thread. And in many cases, a total lack of understanding of how these things work!

Thank you Sarouan and Overread (as ever) for being voices of reason in this maelstrom of internet whining.

Some of the over-reactions and hyperbolic takes I've seen with this whole thing are just absurd. I can totally understand why people might be concerned with this, but it seems to go beyond just reasonable concern and instead in some cases seems like trying to find any excuse just to say "GW Evil!" regardless of having an actual understanding of the situation or how things work or not.

The first thing is that Games Workshop are well within their rights to do all of this and what they said in that article lines up with what copyright law covers in the first place. Regardless of whether they'd written that article or not, all of what was said in there applied to their IP and them writing the article hasn't changed that. They own the copyright and trademarks, they're theirs to defend. Granted, the article doesn't mention the exceptions allowed under copyright law like parody or review....but neither did the previous version.

The previous version of this article said the same thing as this new one does, which again is the same thing copyright law protects It's worded differently but it's all there - the same things about not distributing their copyrighted material, or using their trademarks, or making them look bad etc. It even, just like the new version does, says you need a license from them in order to make things using their IP:

...want to make a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost) using Games Workshop’s IP then you need permission in the form of a license from Games Workshop

Animations would be covered under either "movie" or "anything else". The new article is not some new stance on that, the idea that you don't have permission to use the IP for that sort of thing and need to get a license has been there for over half a decade. That the new one outright says "animations" doesn't mean it wasn't covered before and it having its own line now is no more indicative of their intent with those than the game section getting its own line is. All the infringement stuff has been written like that now.

As for the wording of the article itself, with it overall being written in a somewhat less 'friendly' seeming way, that's something that applies to the entire article and not just a specific part of it. It's a condensed version of the original that instead goes for clearer, shorter sections - the harsher language applies to both the friendly guidelines section and the infringement section, so that overall being worded like that is not something that suggests any sort of approach regarding the infringement part specifically. It's just a part of them rewriting the article to remove the flowery language from the actual descriptive parts of it, but still has some of that present before the important guideline and legal stuff gets mentioned too. The tone is down to the article format.

There's been a lot of things said like "GW are forcing them to join or remove their work!" and saying they're bullying people into doing what they want...even though the creator of "The Last Church" has said that was not the case at all with how they talked to him and that they were perfectly reasonable.

They've re-worded the policy that was already in place for the past half a decade, and they made an offer to those infringing on their IP to give them a job - which they're perfectly fine to refuse, as several have. No C&Ds or threats or anything along those lines, yet people are still making it out that they're acting evil or in an extremely aggressive way that shows disdain for the community. That's not the case at all.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Tabletop Inquirer is the GW bootlicking champion 2021.

"If we shill them enough maybe they'll offer us a job like those other web comics!"

In the end the discussion is going to collapse under itself somewhat because there's really nothing much else to say.

Until TTS or GW reach out to each other to negotiate and establish a factual relationship with each other; then all we have is one creator deciding to pause their content in advance of GW stating to assert their IP/Copyright/Trademark rights within the video industry.


It should be noted that with patreon and payments on the table its actually amazing GW waited until now to do any acting; in theory one could say that they should have stepped in legally years ago.

Again we are seeing a shift with fan works from a simple "fan work" into a business earning profit. The situation does change then and whilst some will be safe because they are parodies, others might not.


It is change and we might well lose some things. I thik most importantly what we are seeing from GW right now (not in the past under different managers) is that they are more willing to come to a mutual agreement with content creators rather than outright just barge in and shut them down.


We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded; we've seen them specify exact models and reasons for infringement; they've offered employment to video creators. These are all optional steps GW does not have to take, but are choosing to do so.

I think that it represents that whilst GW is taking the copyright seriously (as honestly we'd expect of any firm); they are also more willing to try and work with not against the market. This is a huge difference to in the past. It's the same as how today we see leaks turned into marketing from GW instead of them chasing after and trying to shut down news websites (Though I'm sure that behind the scenes those who deliberately leak will still see sanctions/actions taken against them - its just the person who created the leak not the sites reporting and spreading it).


I think GW DOES have a different attitude to in the past and they've shown this already many times over in these dealings.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative

Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?

Sadly, we are to this stage now...GW haters don't care about facts anymore. They just spin them so that it comforts their beliefs.

Proofs, true evidence...that doesn't matter. Low salaries to creative designers become close to poverty wages, content creator deciding to put his own channel on hiatus becomes forced closure by evil GW, people pointing facts become GW protectors.

It's not because the cause is different that the means can't be used in the same despicable way.

...

Okay, pardon the bluntness but: I meant you. You're literally going fake new, fake news, get destroyed by logic and facts!


Jesus.

Shh. Just let him defend the faceless corporation that wants a monopoly over The Hobby.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.

So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?

It's objectively not the same policy.
The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".

Please, quote the exact part of these previous 2014 guidelines I here where you think they say this. They outright say the opposite.

The guidelines section says fan sites and art are allowed - like the current one does. The infringement-related section says you need to get a license for games, apps, movies and anything along those lines because you don't have permission - just like the current one does

 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded

You do understand that this is worse, right?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded

You do understand that this is worse, right?

How is it worse?

But GW IS evil. They barely pay their employees, and keep driving the already absurd prices higher and higher so the higher-ups can pocket ever-absurder amounts of cash on each sale. They make day one DLCs for their already hideously overpriced, terribly written, misspelled, terribly balanced books that are going to be outdated in weeks due to the flood of FAQs and error fixing, because their playtesters probably haven't even seen them once before they went to print. They routinely ignore vast swathes of their community and their wishes. They wield their IP like a battleaxe, making extremely thinly-veiled threats at content creators. They routinely underproduce and exploit underhanded tactics to sell as much as they can. They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase. How blind can you be?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.

Such as?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.

Such as?

Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
[

Please, quote the exact part of these previous 2014 guidelines I here where you think they say this. They outright say the opposite.

The guidelines section says fan sites and art are allowed - like the current one does. The infringement-related section says you need to get a license for games, apps, movies and anything along those lines because you don't have permission - just like the current one does

Indeed. Yet again, the myth of "fan animations are fine if not for money" kept circulating somehow for years.

At least the updated guidelines are clearer, I guess.