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Yes, but do you *need* a unit of Enlightened in order to accomplish that? I feel like theres probably better options that can do roughly the same thing. Ahriman and Thousand Sons DPs both bring the army precision anti-character tech while also providing other capabilities to the army, especially the DP, whereas the Enlgihted seem kind of like a one-trick pony.

But yes, the MVB I would say had the biggest glow-up in the codex. My only concern with it is whether or not its resilient enough to survive the attention its likely to attract from your opponent.

Also pretty sure the TS Defiler has a typo on it - lascannon listed as S9, every other Defiler card for the other chaos factions lists it as S12.

Enlightened have never really been good. They have always been super fragile and are actually more fragile now as they are down to a 6++, so you really need to run them with a shaman or they will just get deleted quickly, which adds to the points investment. I love the models so I will probably use them a few times, but I don't think they will be shaking the meta. Also they have always costed to much, and their points in 9th were laughable, probably the worst value in the game, so if the points are similar they are dead on arrival.

Depending on points if you can get a shaman and a 10 man of Tgors for about the price of 5 Rubrics it might be a nice back field objective camper that can generate an extra cabal point, and have a bit of punch against light targets getting into the back field. Currently I believe 10 Tgor and a shaman is 130 points, while 5 Rubrics with a soulreaper is 110, so close. The rubrics would be a bit more survivable likely, and a bit more punchy likely, but if those points are similar or even more tilted to Tgors and Shaman (say 110 for them and 110 for Rubrics) it could be a good option.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Hell, I even want to try out the Defiler ! Too bad I find the kit so ugly

You need to embrace the crab

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Hell, I even want to try out the Defiler ! Too bad I find the kit so ugly

You need to embrace the crab

If had more time I'd definitely buy one just to sculpt some new heads/arms/weapons in greenstuff and magnetize all of it. The crabby parts are actually the only thing I like about the model
By the by, anyone noticed that the new datacard of the infernal master implies that he tosses his baby screamers at his opponents

On the serious side, I noticed that the Hellbrute's aura isn't limited to once per phase or by model. So if you stack three next to each other and next to a bunch of character it can get bonkers pretty quickly no ? Especially if you picked the enhancement that allows to use one cabal ability twice.

I'm waiting for them to release a new defiler kit. I love the design of it (for the most part), think it looks great, but its showing its age.

Psychic (Strat) inferno weapons with +1 to hit and +1 to wound (Magnus aura) + faction rule + re-rolls to hit and to wound (Strat)

I have calculated that 10 terminators with their rapid-fire Inferno combi-bolters will inflict against an Imperial Knight

Double rerolls + Devastating (= 40 shots)
16,2 wounds

Double rerolls + Devastating + Leader with Lethal (= 44 shots)
18,5 wounds

Double rerolls + Sustained + Leader with Lethal (= 44 shots)
18,1 wounds

Double rerolls + Sustained (= 40 shots)
13 wounds

I assumed the Knight will have a 4+ save after our ap-1.

Is the outcome disappointing for such an expensive combo? Hard to say. I know Eldar players can do Heavy wraithcannon + Strands of Fate and easily kill Magnus with auto-devastating-mortal-wounds in one volley at 36'' (the Wraithknight has 2d3 shots if he takes two Heavy wraithcannons) and we will not be able to use our Destined by Fate stratagem (Aeldari being the masters of fate...).

Back to us, whatever the target, if you can wound on a 4+ and can negate all its saving throws with Twist of fate Cabal,
you do 35 wounds with Double rerolls + Sustained (= 40 shots)
and 42,8 wounds with Double rerolls + Sustained + Leader with Lethal (= 44 shots).

With Precision from the Deamon Prince, even without some Rapid fire shots, you can snipe and kill three characters even if they have a 4++.

What do we think of the DP now? Once per game buffs Rubrics or Scarabs with PRECISION and has 14 attacks in melee...

Need to get foot version is what i think.

Yea it is nice the foot version has a reason to exist now

 dreadblade wrote:
What do we think of the DP now? Once per game buffs Rubrics or Scarabs with PRECISION and has 14 attacks in melee...

Foot-DP looks viable, time to remove the dust from my old metallic 3.5 DP.
Doesn't the Stealth-aura affect himself as well? And yeah, those 14 attacks don't look like that much initially, but since they're [psychic] we can do some fun with them.

As for the Winged-DP however, I don't see myself using with these rules.

Against an Imperial Knight, the output of a Dæmon prince (Strat + faction + Arcane Vortex)
meaning Double rerolls + Sustained hits (which is here very slightly better than Devastating)
is 10,4 wounds, which means in fact 8 or 12, which is a standard vehicle or half a Knight.
The Dæmon Prince may survive one fight phase with the help of save reroll Cabal and Fate Strat.

The points are up. Ten Rubrics are 190. Magnus is 410 (more than Morty, less than Angron), as are ten SOTs. MVBs are 145 apiece, which seems nice.

My default loadout survived about as is. Just need to decide do i drop 1 unit of 5 rubrics or 1 of 3 exalted for enchantments.

After reading trough the pointcosts my impression is "fair enough".
It looks mostly fine or "good enough".

Magnus be a bit on the cheap side given how resilient you can make him (since technically it's possible to give him 3 rerolls and 2 wounds that can be turned into damage 0 per turn), and MVB's might be slightly underpriced.

On the flipside, Vindicators of all flavours seems slightly overpriced, and I can't see myself using the Wing DP (not sure what the point of him is).

In the end, nothing too extreme on either end. Looking forward to dust off (pun not intended) my Thousand Sons now in 10th.

Just noticed the Winged Prince is T9 while the foot version is T10.

How do you feel about Pink and Blue Horrors? Are they good?

 xeen wrote:
Enlightened have never really been good. They have always been super fragile and are actually more fragile now as they are down to a 6++, so you really need to run them with a shaman or they will just get deleted quickly, which adds to the points investment. I love the models so I will probably use them a few times, but I don't think they will be shaking the meta. Also they have always costed to much, and their points in 9th were laughable, probably the worst value in the game, so if the points are similar they are dead on arrival.

Depending on points if you can get a shaman and a 10 man of Tgors for about the price of 5 Rubrics it might be a nice back field objective camper that can generate an extra cabal point, and have a bit of punch against light targets getting into the back field. Currently I believe 10 Tgor and a shaman is 130 points, while 5 Rubrics with a soulreaper is 110, so close. The rubrics would be a bit more survivable likely, and a bit more punchy likely, but if those points are similar or even more tilted to Tgors and Shaman (say 110 for them and 110 for Rubrics) it could be a good option.

Enlightened are 45pts/3 so i'd say theyre gonna be pretty useful as skirmishers that snipe characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm waiting for them to release a new defiler kit. I love the design of it (for the most part), think it looks great, but its showing its age.

it's the worst GW kit in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
Just noticed the Winged Prince is T9 while the foot version is T10.

How do you feel about Pink and Blue Horrors? Are they good?

I don't know if its gonna be good, but i want to bring 6 squads of blues and infiltrate all of them right in my opponent's face to block them in.

(probably not gonna be a good strat lol)

ok, so running the quickmath on my existing collection, about ~1750 points is now 1525. basically everything has gotten cheaper. Im guessing this is to partially offset our new vulnerability to [anti-psychic] we now have (its been clarifed that [anti-x] effects kick in if ANY model in the unit has the relevant keyword, which is not what i thought it would be, but apparently i was wrong)

which...is nice. now i need to buy more to make up for it!

MSU Rubrics + at least one 10 man of Scarabs seems to be the base build again.

Tzaangors stay on the shelf.

Mutaliths look cheap, but before I buy and build three I'd be worried they would get +20/40 points in six months time.

Free upgrades is as stupid as you would expect it to be.

EightFoldPath wrote:
MSU Rubrics + at least one 10 man of Scarabs seems to be the base build again.

Tzaangors stay on the shelf.

Mutaliths look cheap, but before I buy and build three I'd be worried they would get +20/40 points in six months time.

Free upgrades is as stupid as you would expect it to be.

so, i have something of a soft spot for my birdbois, and at 6.5 points a pop, the same as cultists, Im happy to run them, at least in the local club. I Don't expect great things form them and they generally meet my modest expectations.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
MSU Rubrics + at least one 10 man of Scarabs seems to be the base build again.

Tzaangors stay on the shelf.

Mutaliths look cheap, but before I buy and build three I'd be worried they would get +20/40 points in six months time.

Free upgrades is as stupid as you would expect it to be.

so, i have something of a soft spot for my birdbois, and at 6.5 points a pop, the same as cultists, Im happy to run them, at least in the local club. I Don't expect great things form them and they generally meet my modest expectations.

My birdbois are definitely happier in AOS land
Do we start a new thread for 10th now that we have everything we need to play ?

Mutaliths are priced aggressively to the point I might actually call them overpowered.

Played a game of 10th yesterday and first I love it other than devastating wounds being ridiculously overpowered. The lethality is way way down, other than if you can spam mortals (which we can). Cover and reduced ap made a huge impact, especially for 3+ 2+ saves.

If thousand sons are not in the top tier I would hate to see what its. Here are my impressions:

My list
Ahriman on foot leading
9x Flamer Rubrics (I don't own 10)
Exhalted Sor with crystal on foot leading
10x Rubrics with bolters, soul reaper etc.
Sor in Terminator Armor leading
5 x Scarab Occult fully loaded
5 x 5 x Scarab Occult fully loaded
5 x Scarab Occult fully loaded
5x Rubrics with bolters, soul reaper etc.
5x Rubrics with bolters, soul reaper etc.
Dreadnought with LC and ML
Dreadnought with LC and ML
DP with wings

play against a nid list with big brick of carnifexes, lots of gaunts, psychic bugs, and some big monsters, so a real mix.

Cabals:
These are awesome. One of the best faction abilities and I used every one of them multiple times in the game. Doombolt is vicious especially with the winged DP (discussed below). It is not a shooting attack so it can't be countered with strats that give feel no pain. The remove armor is straight broken. It will be used multiple times in probably every game. Move again had real utility allowing me to capture an objective and put my flamers close enough where there was no escape. The strat one was used to get the psychic shooting attacks with the bolters, which with devastating wounds it silly good. And even the little re-roll save one was clutch in allowing me to convert 2 of 3 4++ saves for my terminators. We got really lucky with our faction ability.

Detachment:
As I will explain with the psychic shooting/melee below this ability is both meha and AWESOME at the same time.

Units

Ahriman and the flamers: yea these do exactly what they are billed to do. The +1 to wound is incredible, and being able to use overwatch with these is straight broken. Then you use the cabal to remove armor and this things are back to 9th level lethality. In this game they took down the remainder of the carnifexes (2) after I removed their armor despite only wounding on 5+. They also BBQed a squad of little bugs in overwatch and in my shooting. So what you can do with these guys is if you want to shoot two units with them is you aggressively move them within like 2" of the enemy units (cabal if you have two) then flame one of them. Then the other unit, if it does not have enough movement to get out of the 12" range has to either not move or charge or you will get to shoot that unit too. Obvioulsy a bit situational, but it proved decisive in my game allowing me to get both of his big gaunt units with my flamers before he could really make a charge. oh and re-rolling wounds against units on a objective with this unit is just straight gross. This unit is a must take.

Exhalted with Rubrics: this unit was good. I did not get to use the crystal believe it or not as there was never a good time. The Rubrics did their damage, but the lower ap and cover could really be felt. I also did not not get the chance to resurrect anyone. I probably need a few games to get a better read.

5 Man Rubrics: Did their job and sat on objectives and the soulreaper cannons plinked off a wound or two with Devastating wounds. All is dust was missed, but with how much lower lethality is the Rubrics were doing ok, and quite frankly All is dust would probably be quite broken in the new environment. I understand why 3+ armor does not go to 2+ against ap0, it would be busted.

5 man terminators: holy cow these guys are freaking great. the new rule with -1 to would against S that is higher than T is sooooooooooooo much better than all is dust on these guys. All is dust only worked on D1 weapons so only mattered really against small arms. Small arms are no doing much against these guys with the new T5, 2+ and cover being everywhere (my opponent and I believe cover saves were taken on over 2/3 of the shooting attacks). I was keeping track most of the game and the -1 converting 3s to wound to 4s to wound (no 2s to wound due to T5) and it cost him 17 wounds and we ended the game at the top of turn 5. It is incredible and combined with the 4++ even large guns will struggle to take down SoT (unless mortal wounds due to devastating, but those are going to wipe almost anything). Again must bring unit (although we don't have many alternative anyway)

The terminator sorceror: He was cool. I kept forgetting about the lethal hits he hands out so I probably did not get the best read on him. The re-roll 1's to hit was my only to hit re-roll, and it was kind of meha. His psychic shooting was ok, did a few mortals to a big monster but nothing meta shaking.

Dreadnoughts: they were ok, much tougher to take down even despite losing -1d. the shooting was ok, the LC was good against the big stuff but swing-y with the one shot. The special ability with the cabal points only came up once, so not all that crutial. That was because these were shooting Dreadnoughts so were more in the backfield. CC ones might get more use out of that ability.

DP with wings: Great. His ability to go to deepstrike reserves at the end of the opponent's turn is soooooo good. You can put him anywhere you need, and now he has a pretty good shooting attack, so it is not just about hail mary 9 inch charges. Also, unless the opponent is heavily screening, his ability allows you to put a Doombolt Cabal into basically anything on the battlefield at will. I know people are liking the stealth, but this guy might be better, and he is cheaper.

Psychic Shooting (normal)
It was pretty meha to be honest. It kind of felt like an ok round of smites from 9th, doing a couple mortals here or there with one or two more failed saves. It is nice to have, sustained hits kind of helps the output, but overall it is just more of a nice to have, rather than the main thrust of damage (Magnus probably would change this a bit).

Psychic Shooting (Strat)
The turning the bolters to psychic shoots is really good. Devastating wounds is just so effective in mass, but I also used sustained hits with this one turn 1 against some smaller bugs and it was good. This is probably not broken (like below) but is definitely going to be a staple in TS armies. I did not have a ten man SoT squad to use it on either, so that might be crazy.

Psychic melee
Straight up broken as hell. The moment our army is in mass combats switch to devastating wounds and watch the mortals fly. Ahriman and the DP (whose CC is psychic) with the flat 3 damage becoming 3 mortals is outrageous. In one combat the two of them put out 15 mortal wounds, with just them. That is better than all but the best psychic phases I had in 9th. And that doesn't include the handful of other mortal wounds put out by the Aspiring Sorcerers. The devastating wounds allows us to punch up against many units especially with our characters. Personally I think devastating wounds is a real problem for the game at a game design level, with our CC being a great example of how it can get out of control when it is spam-able. But for now enjoy the sheer carnage.

Hope this was helpful.

Noticed you had 2 dreads. Maybe moot point but were you gaining 1 or 2 cabal points if 2 were in range? Just checking you noticed as aura's don"t stack(i know i was planning trio to farm them>

(at least that'smy intepretation>

tneva82 wrote:
Noticed you had 2 dreads. Maybe moot point but were you gaining 1 or 2 cabal points if 2 were in range? Just checking you noticed as aura's don"t stack(i know i was planning trio to farm them>

(at least that'smy intepretation>

I would not have stacked them but it never came up


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think about this. Daemon prince with the enhancement for +1 damage on his attacks. In CC use the strat to re-roll psychic attacks. Fish for sixes. Each one is four mortal wounds. That could get crazy.

tneva82 wrote:
Noticed you had 2 dreads. Maybe moot point but were you gaining 1 or 2 cabal points if 2 were in range? Just checking you noticed as aura's don"t stack(i know i was planning trio to farm them>

(at least that'smy intepretation>

They don't stack ? I don't see where in the rule it specifies that.

Thanks for the report Xeen !

How good was the winged DP in melee ? Was he able to hold on his own ?

That's my interpretation. Multiple same named aura's(and the ability is aura) don"t stack as per core rules. Don't see how hellbrute ability would ignore that restriction.

tneva82 wrote:
That's my interpretation. Multiple same named aura's(and the ability is aura) don"t stack as per core rules. Don't see how hellbrute ability would ignore that restriction.

I agree with this interpretation. Would be kinda busted if they stacked and you could theoretically get 3 Cabal Points-back every time you did a ritual.
Let's say you generate 12 CaP.
Weaver of Fates would in effect gain you a CaP (use it twice with LoFL), so now you're at 14 CaP.

Surge is essentially 2 CaP, Echoes is 3 CaP, Doombolt is 4 CaP and Twist is 6 CaP.

You can easily make a regular list where you'd be able to get more or less every ritual off every turn at 2000 pts (or Twist twice).

so, just a reminder to those who haven't clocked onto this yet, but the same mechanics that allow [anti-psychic] to work on rubrics due to their leaders being psychic also apply to [anti-fly] as well. So, all those "icarus" weapons the primaris have on various dreds and vehicles are at increased effectiveness against a squad with a attached character on disk.

on the flip side, if you can get the helldrake into melee with jump infantry it will be doing 2 mortals on 2+ to wound. Its now nasty into things like van vets, sang guard or crisis suits.

So if you put a disc in a squad and they gain the fly keyword, they should be able to make a fly move right? That seems odd. Also why bother having the psychic keyword separate out if it will just apply to the whole squad? Maybe in some circumstances kill the sorcerer first?

15 mortal wounds. So you rolled five 6s to wound. I think you were lucky. But yes, it seems strong.
Your post was helpful, thanks !

Psychic melee
Straight up broken as hell. The moment our army is in mass combats switch to devastating wounds and watch the mortals fly. Ahriman and the DP (whose CC is psychic) with the flat 3 damage becoming 3 mortals is outrageous. In one combat the two of them put out 15 mortal wounds, with just them. That is better than all but the best psychic phases I had in 9th. And that doesn't include the handful of other mortal wounds put out by the Aspiring Sorcerers. The devastating wounds allows us to punch up against many units especially with our characters. Personally I think devastating wounds is a real problem for the game at a game design level, with our CC being a great example of how it can get out of control when it is spam-able. But for now enjoy the sheer carnage.

Hope this was helpful.