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Indeed.

Horus was but the first stone. The infantile power struggles within the Imperium ever since have only made things worse.

But, that’s what happens when there’s a power vacuum.

The point about xenos is interesting. Would they largely leave humans alone? During the golden age their couldn’t have been 40K levels of war otherwise it wouldn’t have been that golden. Then all the planets were cut off by warp storms but millions of human worlds survived so did the warp storms prevent them from attacking humans or did they not want to.

And then at first chance the emperor just went crazy and decided to kill them all

Golden Age doesn't mean peace though. It could just mean that humanity was doing all the winning, which they obviously were because of Men of Iron.

Fair point

 Gert wrote:
Golden Age doesn't mean peace though. It could just mean that humanity was doing all the winning, which they obviously were because of Men of Iron.

and if they where winning without humans even needing to see combat it could have been a golden age for humanity while bloody bloody wars where being fought "elsewhere"

Gsc cults are no traitor, they are xenon tainting the very DNA of the population. You can't betray the Imperium if you aren't even human. But loyalist and traitor are just neutral words, the ones who remained loyal (wether it's a good thing or not) and the ones who didn't (like the rebels in Star Wars, rebel isn't good or bad, it's just the name of people who are in a rebellion). I see no issue with that

Golden Age Tech also included complete STCs, and technology so advanced it could snuff out Suns - so wrecking any Xenos might not have been that notable an achievement.

I don’t mean to belittle anyone, but it is super easy to look at the technology available within The Imperium and assume that’s as good as humanity will ever get. The Golden Age dwarfs it utterly.

Consider Titans and Legion Flagships. Colossal and near undefeatable even today. Then think that during The Golden Age, the only thing limiting their construction and deployment was gathering the necessary resources.

Thanks to the more advanced STCs (not all were equal. Some only produced blueprints and the tools to build them, some might as well have been Industrial Replicators. More on that in another thread), that might’ve been even easier than we might think, if they were capable of sorting, smelting and synthesising the necessary materials.

mrFickle wrote:
But of course if you think being loyal to a totalitarian genocidal theocracy makes you a goodie then you need to check yourself. The irony of the use of loyalists and traitors is that it really makes the CSM the goodies because they turned their back and want to destroy the horror that is the imperium that would make the the goodies and the space marines baddies.

Hello, we are the Night Lords, we are going to torture you for the lols, and to destroy the horror that is the Imperium and all that.

Aside from that - loyalist/traitor are simply because the setting is primarily shown from the imperial perspective, the chaos marines are nothing if not totalitarian genocidal theocrats, and none of them turned their back on the Imperium out of a desire to 'destroy the horror'.

mrFickle wrote:
There’s a speech by angron where says he doesnt kill and slaughter because he not moral, he does it because the butchers nails compel him.

"I don't kill people because i'm bad, I just kill people because the nails in my head tell me to. Now if you would excuse me i've got new recruits in and i've misplaced my hammer..." - Angron.

Angron also refused to lead his Legion because he thought they were weaklings, killed like half the Legions high command, encouraged the implantation of the Nails and then butchered the parts of the Legion who weren't down with implants that make you murder harder.
Angron is not a morally good character in any way shape or form.

We could describe Angron as morally compromised though, rather morally evil.

The Butcher’s Nails aren’t exactly conducive to rational thought, creating as they do an addiction to violence.

Like any addict, can we really blame someone in the throws of physical and mental addiction needing their fix as evil?

If a junkie mugs someone at knife point to get money for their next fix? It is absolutely not a moral act - but it doesn’t make the person underneath the addiction evil per se (nor does it excuse their action, for clarity)

Sure but Angron still had a lot of lucidity, especially in the earlier years of the Crusade. He could easily have told his Legion not to implant the Nails and certainly shouldn't have encouraged it. Angron was a spiteful git who, like every other Primarch, had a massive ego. He forced the Nails upon the World Eaters so they could share his pain. He felt such disdain for them he literally stole a ship and just left for two years until Kharn found him. He gave them impossible tasks and then ordered decimations when the Legion failed.
There's making bad choices because of the Nails and then there's Angron.

Or he had been driven beyond full rationality by the Butcher’s Nails.

It may have been him simply trying to recreate his fallen brethren. The one The Emperor left to die on their hill, instead of doing something actually constructive, like intervening in the conflict in some way.

Most of these responses seem to argue over "loyalist" and "traitor" in real world demographics/politics and little to do with 40k.

That the chaos gods are fundamentally evil isn't really something that can be denied - it's just how the gods are in the 40k universe. Daemons are described as hating all mortals for purely existing, and only fight alongside if beholden to by their gods.

You could argue that the horus heresy was initially motivated by a sense on bringing justice to the emperor for some legionaries. Even then it's merely them being rather petty about arguing who shoud be in charge.

And the Imperium is clearly not "good" in and of itself.

IMO there are no "good guys" in a general sense in the 40k universe, which of course was probably GWs original idea with the grim-dark setting.

Tbh Angron’s mistreatment of his legion is probably a combination of a deliberate FU to the Emperor combined with the nails making it difficult for him to think of them as people rather than the Emperor’s tools plus a bit of self hatred at the fact that he’s been cast in the role of those he was trying to overthrow before the Emperor abducted him.

 Boringstuff wrote:
Most of these responses seem to argue over "loyalist" and "traitor" in real world demographics/politics and little to do with 40k.

That the chaos gods are fundamentally evil isn't really something that can be denied - it's just how the gods are in the 40k universe. Daemons are described as hating all mortals for purely existing, and only fight alongside if beholden to by their gods.

You could argue that the horus heresy was initially motivated by a sense on bringing justice to the emperor for some legionaries. Even then it's merely them being rather petty about arguing who shoud be in charge.

And the Imperium is clearly not "good" in and of itself.

IMO there are no "good guys" in a general sense in the 40k universe, which of course was probably GWs original idea with the grim-dark setting.

Very much the last point.

Chaos offers absolute freedom - but with no safety.

The Imperium offers security - but for pretty much everyone, absolutely no freedom and a life of drudgery.

The only species actively enjoying themselves are Orks, because the state of the Galaxy is exactly to their liking. And given Orky outlook, not actually evil. Might makes right for all Orks. Sure, you might be a weedy humie. But, potentially, if you can stick a ten penny one up the bracket of an Ork and kill him? You’re no longer weedy. Sure, the next biggest Ork will just come and duff you up. But that’s just their society. They don’t do what they do out of any malice as we understand it.

Chaos offers absolute freedom - but with no safety.

Nope. Chaos offers absolute slavery, with even death being no escape. But it also offers a chance for the power to lash out against everyone/everything that's ever hurt you. (and the Imperium does a lot of hurting, and life seems grindingly pointless and hopeless, so its no surprise that people will take the chaos option)


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mrFickle wrote:
I was thinking about the use of the words loyalist and traitor for Space Marines and CSM. I feel like their intention is to set out instantly who the goodies and baddies are, because they aren’t just words used by imperial characters in the stories they are used all over the place in marketing etc.

But of course if you think being loyal to a totalitarian genocidal theocracy makes you a goodie then you need to check yourself. The irony of the use of loyalists and traitors is that it really makes the CSM the goodies because they turned their back and want to destroy the horror that is the imperium that would make the the goodies and the space marines baddies.

There’s a speech by angron where says he doesnt kill and slaughter because he not moral, he does it because the butchers nails compel him. If he were a moral man he would have killed the emperor already.

I suppose it’s just another way in which GW try to make us all look at the 40K universe through the eyes of an imperial citizen

Maybe its a cultural thing, but 'loyalist' absolutely doesn't make you a 'goodie.' It just means you're on the side of whoever's currently in the big chair (or someone who was just ousted, depending on the context).
It isn't really a moral judgement-- here, for example, 240-odd years ago, loyalist and traitor were synonyms.
Same would be true of anyone who fought for Charles I- they'd be loyalists.

I still argue Chaos offers freedom.

In a way, it’s more of a meritocracy as Ork society, as your the judgement of your performance depends on which god you pledge yourself to - if you even did.

Yes, you’re still ultimately beholden to another being - but their rules are loose at best.

Imperium are objectively the good guys, their ultimate goal is to save humanity against its countless enemies.

Everything the Imperious does, it does for that reason. Sure, sometimes harsh or brutal measures are necessary, but ultimately its towards a good cause.

People who disagree are not only objectively wrong, but also either heretic or xeno sympathizers.

Good joke.

I suspect ia not a joke... That is what GW marketing has done to the perception of the setting. :(

Daemonhammer wrote:Imperium are objectively the good guys, their ultimate goal is to save humanity against its countless enemies.

Everything the Imperious does, it does for that reason. Sure, sometimes harsh or brutal measures are necessary, but ultimately its towards a good cause.

People who disagree are not only objectively wrong, but also either heretic or xeno sympathizers.

And here's where you say that you're joking...


... right?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:I suspect ia not a joke... That is what GW marketing has done to the perception of the setting. :(

That's not just GW's marketing - that's a lack of insight in real life, especially regarding the whole "sometimes harsh or brutal measures are necessary, but ultimately its towards a good cause" sentiment.

I could sort of understand that sort of reasoning... but thats not what the IOM do.

The IOM fanatics might fill self-rightjeous, but they are clearly playing in favour not of humanity as a species but rather of a corrupt elite and the chaos Gods, who are very happy of the existence of the IOM... dont want to get political but you could find parallels with certain "Imperial Republic" between two oceans.

Thats why you need 40K to be a satire or else is just a celebration of militaristic bigotry.

Or people can just be capable of separating fiction from reality.
I like the 40k universe and the Imperium is a compelling empire that has a lot of interesting background. That doesn't make me a goose-stepping Xenophobe.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I still argue Chaos offers freedom.

In a way, it’s more of a meritocracy as Ork society, as your the judgement of your performance depends on which god you pledge yourself to - if you even did.

Yes, you’re still ultimately beholden to another being - but their rules are loose at best.

yeah no dude, thats not how it works. you might think you're free, but in reality you've just changed one master for another. the HH novel "Slaves of darkness" does a good job of showing how it really works

Well Gert this is sort of problematic... because actually myth and fiction are a product of human mind and they exist precisely to alterate human social behaviour (even if they are concealed as entertaiment).

So if people start thinking about militaristic bigots as "the good guys" (IE: defenders of humanity) without any level of irony or criticism... precisely in a moment when in the real world that sort of ideology is on the rise globally... well it sort of rises some red flags.

Please try to understand my words with some nuance and dont take them literally for an easy reply.

The only nuance needs to be in the experience of the individual and what media they consume.
It doesn't matter if 40k portrays the Imperium as "good" (it actually doesn't as soon as you scrape a millimeter beneath the surface and read a single novel) if a hundred other pieces of media show that militant authoritarian Xenophobic systems of governance are bad. Which they do, like all the time.

 Boringstuff wrote:
That the chaos gods are fundamentally evil isn't really something that can be denied - it's just how the gods are in the 40k universe.

I disagree. If the Chaos gods are a reflection and manifestation of the emotions of living beings, then they are capable of anything which living beings are which are tied to the emotions which created them and currently sustain them. They are made the way they are by the misery inflicted on the galaxy by the Imperium of Man. If humanity were not actively and deliberately oppressed by the imperium, then it is possible that the resultant reduction in negative emotions would change the chaos gods to reflect that change in the emotions which feed them.

The chaos gods seek to negatively impact the universe (from the point of view of the Imperium, at least) because they are manifestations of negative emotions and actions as that is the strongest source of emotion in the Imperium. If it were reversed, and the Imperium was not an oppressive, fascistic regime constantly stamping on the face of humanity, allowing humanity to more freely experience positive emotions then it is entirely possible that would also be reflected in the actions of the chaos gods.

BTW it's not just the Imperium that makes the Gods the way they are. The War in Heaven was so cataclysmic that it turned the Warp from a safe and beautiful place into the hellscape we know today. The Old Ones basically kept it in balance and then the eradication of their race combined with the massive psychic backlash caused by the War polluted the Warp. By the time Humanity discovered Warp Travel it was already too late then the Fall of the Aeldari just made everything worse and was the final nail in the coffin for the empire of man.

How can you genuinely complain about militarism, fanaticism, xenophobia and bigotry in the Imperium? The Imperium is completely justified in having those attitudes.


A single heretic or genestealer hybrid on a planet of billions is enough to sow the seeds of what would eventually cause its destruction.

Interstellar travel works by traveling trough hell, where getting licked by a daemon once is enough to consign you to eternal torment and the only semi-reliable means of salvation is faith in the Emperor.

The forces of Chaos are entirely made up of insane psychopaths who worship evil and want nothing more than perpetual suffering for everyone.

Xenos range anywhere from devouring swarms or terminators to anarchist fungus and communists.

On top of all that, the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years.
Harsh and brutal behavior is not only justified but even necessary for the Imperium to survive.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
How can you genuinely complain about militarism, fanaticism, xenophobia and bigotry in the Imperium? The Imperium is completely justified in having those attitudes.


A single heretic or genestealer hybrid on a planet of billions is enough to sow the seeds of what would eventually cause its destruction.

Interstellar travel works by traveling trough hell, where getting licked by a daemon once is enough to consign you to eternal torment and the only semi-reliable means of salvation is faith in the Emperor.

The forces of Chaos are entirely made up of insane psychopaths who worship evil and want nothing more than perpetual suffering for everyone.

Xenos range anywhere from devouring swarms or terminators to anarchist fungus and communists.

On top of all that, the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years.
Harsh and brutal behavior is not only justified but even necessary for the Imperium to survive.

Gert, this is why you need to make the fact that the Imperium is bad painfully obvious.

Because there are people who look at a xenophobic, genocidal war machine and think "Yes, they need to do that to save the human race!" without any hint of irony.

They say "...the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years." without considering the fact that the Imperium started those wars itself when it began a crusade of genocidal expansion with the aim of human supremacy over the entire galaxy and the extermination of all other intelligent life. If Nazi Germany didn't want to fight against the whole world then it shouldn't have declared war on it. It doesn't get to whine that it had to kill millions of Poles and completely flatten Warsaw as they were subversive and trying to undermine its rule when it didn't need to invade Poland in the first place.