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Rising tide on preorder next week and still no rumors of ork rules

I see that Ghaz definitely has lost a place in comp lists, especially to alpha strike and buggy spam.

However I do want to try and field him, so I would love some thoughts or feedback on this mixed Ghaz list

The list features a strong waaagh push whatever turn you declare it.
I have dipped into a strong alpha strike, gotten some buggies to clear anything that might overwatch threat a charge, and feature bikers because they get the most benefit from ghaz (25 pts for all those stats during waagh is pretty good I think).
I have a deathskulls detachment to contest middle board objectives after the big strike wave hits and ghaz, makari, and the KFF can help push the tide of boys slowly up the board and /w goffs they can push back.

Let me know!

 Blackie wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?

3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.

With two detachments, like 2x patrols or patrol + outrider, you get 4 slots for the HQs. You can fit 2 squig bosses, a wartrike and a biker boss all together.

you can only put down 1 warboss type per detatchment. so no


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah I agree, 4-5 CP works fine for me as well.
Ramming Speed is by far my most used strat, followed by CoS & FFB.
5 CP is the sweet spot for me, because that way I can pop all 3 strats turn 1 if there is the need for it.

Otherwise 3-5 CP for detachments and another 2-4 (depending on list) for relics/ wl traits is a good investment for orks and gives us more than having 10 CP.

But aren't there limitations on taking more than one Boss per detachment?

Yeah it's one per detachment, no matter what kind of warboss.

I see. Well cloud of smoke, ramming speed and if i run warbikers, More dakka is also useful. Sometimes careen i guess, and the occational overwatch.

Still it seem like 5CP isnt really that much. But i guess ill try and work with it for a change. Ill be getting 2 squig bosses soon to try it out.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?

3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.

With two detachments, like 2x patrols or patrol + outrider, you get 4 slots for the HQs. You can fit 2 squig bosses, a wartrike and a biker boss all together.

But aren't there limitations on taking more than one Boss per detachment?

There are, you're right. Totally forgot about that since I never took, or even considered, more than one warboss/speedboss in my lists.

It is possible to field three detachments including two squigosaur and a speedboss though. I think that both wartrike and biker boss are redundant and only one of those, to call the speedwaaagh, should be needed if there are already two squigosaurs in the list.

Just read an interesting question regarding Tankbustas.

Guy asked if you run Goff Tankbusters, whether or not the Tankhammer can explode and grant extra hits.

I would argue yeah since there is no rule precluding this, but the counter argument was that since it only allows 1 attack, that as soon as that attack hits the weapon and bearer die therefore no 2nd hit can be generated.

We have a history of single use weapons being able to dish out extra hits/attacks. For instance, in 8th, the Squigbomb was a single use item, but if you rolled a 6 to hit with it then Dakka Dakka Dakka kicked in and you could end up with 2 hits instead of 1.

Anyone else have a good reason why it wouldn't be the case?

attacks =/= hits

You only make 1 attack with the tankhammer, if it happens to cause 2 hits thats totally different than the model making 2 intentional attacks.

SemperMortis wrote:
Anyone else have a good reason why it wouldn't be the case?

The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.

Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.

It's either you get an additional hit and do more mortal wounds, or you get an additional hit and resolve it with an alternative weapon.

It depends on how the wording is interpreted and is one of those wonderful things that is worded terribly and spawns a nightmare of a YMDC thread.

I err towards the latter because one infantry model putting out 2d6 mortals seems a touch silly.

In my opinion, the extra hit is also a hit generated by that attack, but I'd probably take it to YMDC. The 2d6 MW isn't really an argument, as a unit of 15 can already deal 3d6 MW and no one cares.

 MinMax wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Anyone else have a good reason why it wouldn't be the case?

The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.

Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.

this. i Asked the same question long ago and the result of that discussion was, that a roll of 6 would grant an extra hit, but with str user, 0 ap and 1 damage. because abilities dont proc twice, even if he can hit twice.

So you wouldnt get 2D6 MW from one tank hammer.

 MinMax wrote:

The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.

Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
It's either you get an additional hit and do more mortal wounds, or you get an additional hit and resolve it with an alternative weapon.

It depends on how the wording is interpreted and is one of those wonderful things that is worded terribly and spawns a nightmare of a YMDC thread.

I err towards the latter because one infantry model putting out 2d6 mortals seems a touch silly.

Beardedragon wrote:
a roll of 6 would grant an extra hit, but with str user, 0 ap and 1 damage. because abilities dont proc twice, even if he can hit twice.

So you wouldnt get 2D6 MW from one tank hammer.

Right, I get that entirely, but I am just pointing out that it did hit...but now because of the goff special rule, it hit TWICE As far as causing mortal wounds the argument I see is that you don't get to transfer hits to other weapons. So if I make 5 attacks with a Choppa/PK Nob and put all those attacks on the Choppa, I can't turn those hits into PK swings just because I want to, you have to declare what weapon you are using prior to rolling to hit. As it stands that means the Tank hammer has 2 hits from the same attack, so you have to resolve both with the tank hammer, and the tank hammer's ability kicks in twice for that exact reason. And if you follow the order of operations in the fight phase, you resolve hits first before removing casualties, either theirs or your own which means that the single use Tankhammer would in fact be dolling out 2D6 Mortal wounds.

As far as the comment about it being a 17pt model dealing 2D6 mortal wounds..I mean yeah...but if you have 3 of them in a maxed out squad of 15 you are at best averaging a 50% chance of getting a single 6 to hit because its only 1 attack per model with the Tank hammer and only if you are a Goff...which isn't exactly prime Tankbusta kulture to say the least I wouldn't build a list around this idea it was more of a factual based argument about whether or not it would/should work. As it currently stands I still don't see any argument for it not working based exclusively on rules. I understand the argument for why you think it shouldn't work, but none of them were based on rules that exist in the game atm.

SemperMortis wrote:

 MinMax wrote:

The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.

Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
It's either you get an additional hit and do more mortal wounds, or you get an additional hit and resolve it with an alternative weapon.

It depends on how the wording is interpreted and is one of those wonderful things that is worded terribly and spawns a nightmare of a YMDC thread.

I err towards the latter because one infantry model putting out 2d6 mortals seems a touch silly.

Beardedragon wrote:
a roll of 6 would grant an extra hit, but with str user, 0 ap and 1 damage. because abilities dont proc twice, even if he can hit twice.

So you wouldnt get 2D6 MW from one tank hammer.

Right, I get that entirely, but I am just pointing out that it did hit...but now because of the goff special rule, it hit TWICE As far as causing mortal wounds the argument I see is that you don't get to transfer hits to other weapons. So if I make 5 attacks with a Choppa/PK Nob and put all those attacks on the Choppa, I can't turn those hits into PK swings just because I want to, you have to declare what weapon you are using prior to rolling to hit. As it stands that means the Tank hammer has 2 hits from the same attack, so you have to resolve both with the tank hammer, and the tank hammer's ability kicks in twice for that exact reason. And if you follow the order of operations in the fight phase, you resolve hits first before removing casualties, either theirs or your own which means that the single use Tankhammer would in fact be dolling out 2D6 Mortal wounds.

As far as the comment about it being a 17pt model dealing 2D6 mortal wounds..I mean yeah...but if you have 3 of them in a maxed out squad of 15 you are at best averaging a 50% chance of getting a single 6 to hit because its only 1 attack per model with the Tank hammer and only if you are a Goff...which isn't exactly prime Tankbusta kulture to say the least I wouldn't build a list around this idea it was more of a factual based argument about whether or not it would/should work. As it currently stands I still don't see any argument for it not working based exclusively on rules. I understand the argument for why you think it shouldn't work, but none of them were based on rules that exist in the game atm.

As far as im aware, no you would not, because as much as the tankhammer is a "weapon" it does not have a weapon profile. This is why the old bomb squigs worked with dakka dakka, because it had an actual weapons profile, but the old tankhammers never worked, because they dont have a profile to attack with.

Abilities cannot proc twice in such a manner, and as far as i recall they never could. Your secondary attack has to proc its attack profile, but because the tankhammer doesnt have profile, and it only has an ability effect, you would have to end your attack with an attack str user, 0 ap and 1 damage.

The chances of this happening is irrelevant, i like you, made the argument that it should work. But ive since then found out that it does not, in fact work. Because a tankhammer has no stats, it only has an ability. And abilities do not trigger twice. Thats why bomb squigs used to work, because they were not abilities, but had weapon sheets. So your tankhammer would proc its ability first, then with the secondary hit, it would just be a str user, no ap, 1 damage hit because it has no other profile to hit twice with.

Abilities, will not proc twice.

The tank hammer does have a profile, it's just that strength, AP and damage are irrelevant as you will never reach the "to wound" step.
Old tank hammers didn't work because goff used to get extra attacks, and you are not allowed to make extra attacks. You are not limited in any way as to how often a single attack can hit, see any unit with sweeping attacks.

It's one attack that hits twice. Each of those hits fulfills the requirement for the weapon's ability, so each hit does d6 MW and kills the wielder.

The extra hit is the "proc", the ability is static/condition based. As Semper has pointed out the S:User interpretation is actually AGAINST the rules, so it cannot possibly be true.

And there is a precedent for this in the codex already - if your squiggosaur rolls sixes for its jaws, it will get extra hits with the jaw's profile that will deal MW when they roll high enough. It's essentially the same thing.

Im fairly confident theres a rule that states, that if an attack has an ability connected to it, if for what ever reason that attack gets two hits, like goff 6s, only the first attack will have the effect.


because effects dont proc twice.

Of course saying that im not near my rules book so i cant fully verify it. nor can i remember if it was an FAQ.

I just remember that Abilities dont trigger twice, even if you get one attack with two hits.

isnt it like a normal generalist advanced rule or something.

I also dont understand what you mean the tankhammer has a profile, as far as i can see, it doesnt have any numbers attatched to str, AP nor damage.

Beardedragon wrote:
Im fairly confident theres a rule that states, that if an attack has an ability connected to it, if for what ever reason that attack gets two hits, like goff 6s, only the first attack will have the effect.


because effects dont proc twice.

Of course saying that im not near my rules book so i cant fully verify it. nor can i remember if it was an FAQ.

I just remember that Abilities dont trigger twice, even if you get one attack with two hits.

isnt it like a normal generalist advanced rule or something.

I also dont understand what you mean the tankhammer has a profile, as far as i can see, it doesnt have any numbers attatched to str, AP nor damage.

Extra Hits are treated as being a numberless hit-so if a 6 to-hit generates an extra hit AND automatically wounds, you get 1 auto-wound and 1 extra hit, not 2 auto-wounding hits.

That's what you're thinking of, I think.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Im fairly confident theres a rule that states, that if an attack has an ability connected to it, if for what ever reason that attack gets two hits, like goff 6s, only the first attack will have the effect.


because effects dont proc twice.

Of course saying that im not near my rules book so i cant fully verify it. nor can i remember if it was an FAQ.

I just remember that Abilities dont trigger twice, even if you get one attack with two hits.

isnt it like a normal generalist advanced rule or something.

I also dont understand what you mean the tankhammer has a profile, as far as i can see, it doesnt have any numbers attatched to str, AP nor damage.

Extra Hits are treated as being a numberless hit-so if a 6 to-hit generates an extra hit AND automatically wounds, you get 1 auto-wound and 1 extra hit, not 2 auto-wounding hits.

That's what you're thinking of, I think.

maybe.

Im not sure.

I dont know at this point to be fair.

It's a headscratcher. And there may not be a solid RAW answer, because GW isn't very precise with their rules.

If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.

Honestly, you're probably better off just using them to shoot.

3 Tankhammers, with exploding hits on a 5+, gets you 3 hits on average. 10.5 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at... But is it worth losing the shooting, all the points invested, and using the strat on a unit that's not that great in melee relative to some other ones?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.

Honestly, you're probably better off just using them to shoot.

3 Tankhammers, with exploding hits on a 5+, gets you 3 hits on average. 10.5 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at... But is it worth losing the shooting, all the points invested, and using the strat on a unit that's not that great in melee relative to some other ones?

Yeah, it's one thing if you could maximize just taking tankhammers in a unit of five as a suicide squad, but being forced to take a unit of 15 to grab 3 tankhammers in a unit who can be interrupted or overwatched on the way in, and basically neutering the unit's shooting assuming you whiff your hits means that you may as well just invest in more consistent shooting or CC to deal damage.

Any experience with Killrigs already?

I have run tripple tank hammers quite a lot (because PL crusade without WYSIWYG is dumb), and their most common application is being the first three casualties you pull from a mob

but how the hell do you explain this to people if you run Goff tankbustas with tankhammers? The moment you open your dity mouth about how exploding 6s should give another D6mortal wounds of damage, people will give you the: that guy" look.

hell i wouldnt even be able to explain it because i dont even understand why its meant to work.

To be fair im not even fully sold on the idea that it IS how its meant to work.

Ill just stay clear off tankhammers with goff i guess. I actually made an early sketch of a list with goff tankhammers based on my best army from the previous codex. Because as i said i thought it worked at the start of this codex, but even if you say all this im not really sold thats how it works.

But its fine. ill try not get in to these weird situations where "technically" someone is correct because of a selection of rare rules happen to allign correctly.


Anyway we dont have to keep talking about it.
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I have an issue though that id like to get some help with.

a month ago i ran the usual freebootas buggy list with some dakkajets, warbikers and what not and bla bla bla. I played against Deathguard and he brough Mortarion.
When it was my turn i came to the conclusion that me, being freebootas, fighting against death guard who has mortarion, is a rather gakky situation. Because when fighting mortarion you would preferably rush him down as fast as you can, but unless you dedicate your shooting to attacking something ELSE first to proc that +1 to hit, then you would essentially fire all your guns at mortarion and it would be like you had no klan kulture at all. No kills, no "klan kulture" effects.


So do you smash all your guns (or relevant guns) at mortarion or do you actually "waste" some of your guns shooting at something else to kill it, to proc the +1 to hit, before attacking mortarion? Mind you killing death guard is a lengthy process in itself. I feel like killing mortarion turn 1 is already difficult, but killing mortarion while having to kill something else first just to get +1 to hit, is also kind of a difficult thing. And then again, killing mortarion while having no klan kulture because you chose not to killing anything before hand is equally a difficult thing to do.

I feel like its a difficult question that my brain cant really cope with.

Beardedragon wrote:
but how the hell do you explain this to people if you run Goff tankbustas with tankhammers? The moment you open your dity mouth about how exploding 6s should give another D6mortal wounds of damage, people will give you the: that guy" look.

hell i wouldnt even be able to explain it because i dont even understand why its meant to work.

To be fair im not even fully sold on the idea that it IS how its meant to work.

Ill just stay clear off tankhammers with goff i guess. I actually made an early sketch of a list with goff tankhammers based on my best army from the previous codex. Because as i said i thought it worked at the start of this codex, but even if you say all this im not really sold thats how it works.

But its fine. ill try not get in to these weird situations where "technically" someone is correct because of a selection of rare rules happen to allign correctly.

I mean, if you take them, I would talk about it before the game even starts.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.

its a laugh for sure, but definitely not competitive. As mentioned, if you roll a full mob of 15 you will need a wagon to transport them, and thats like 1/4th of your army now. And in CC the best they can do is 6D6 mortal wounds which averages out to ...21 Mortal wounds. And that is with insane luck mind you You would be better off running them as freebootas and have them kill things in the shooting phase after killing something so they hit on 4s.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.

its a laugh for sure, but definitely not competitive. As mentioned, if you roll a full mob of 15 you will need a wagon to transport them, and thats like 1/4th of your army now. And in CC the best they can do is 6D6 mortal wounds which averages out to ...21 Mortal wounds. And that is with insane luck mind you You would be better off running them as freebootas and have them kill things in the shooting phase after killing something so they hit on 4s.

Best case scenario, you're up against a big Vehicle like a Baneblade or a Knight. You do add one to hit rolls even in melee, so you'd get...

24 regular attacks
28 hits (2+ to-hit, 5+ generates extras)
28/6 or 14/3 wounds
14/9 damage

3 Tank Hammer attacks
21/6 or 7/2 hits
49/4 Mortal Wounds

For a total of 14/9=56/36 plus 49/4=441/36 totals to 497/36 or 13.81 damage

Now, let's look at shooting! A 15-Boy blob, assuming no buffs except for their own +1 to-hit targeting a Vehicle, but we'll also assume they moved.

15d3 or 30 shots
10 hits
5 wounds against T8
10/3 failed saves against a 3+/5++
30/3 or 10 damage

If they're Freebootas and you killed another unit, or if you just managed to get them to stand still, increase by 50% to 15 damage.

I was saying, if you got lucky and rolled 3 to hit rolls with the tankhammers and got all 5s and 6s with the strat the likelihood is incredibly low, possible, but not likely. And at the end of hte day you still only managed 21dmg while the actual tankbusta boyz just mostly bounce off

SemperMortis wrote:
I was saying, if you got lucky and rolled 3 to hit rolls with the tankhammers and got all 5s and 6s with the strat the likelihood is incredibly low, possible, but not likely. And at the end of hte day you still only managed 21dmg while the actual tankbusta boyz just mostly bounce off

Yeah. Even if you get the 1/27 odds of three 5+ hit rolls, you won't QUITE kill a Knight on average. 21+14/9=22.56.

Man what a year to play Orks!!!!! I remember when the only kits in the store were stikkbomma boyz and ard boyz how far we have come! So many new models and such a beautiful range and best of all a codex built to win not for comic relief.

Does the Forgeworld Kannonwagon have ramshackle?