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 Jidmah wrote:
Units of 5 koptas super-suck because of morale though. They are quite vulnerable to both high damage weapons like melta and lances, as well high RoF weapons or melee weapons with 2 damage can easily cause additional moral casualties with next to no effort.

In my experience, 3 is the best way to run them, but then again 3x3 koptas plus 3 units of warbikers would eat a lot of slots and it seems like one should avoid tripple outrider.

I think the army of renown is on a similar level as the DG's terminus est. It's a good option when you want to run an army that looks like that, but the hefty limitations imposed on it will keep it from placing regularly, especially once the squigbuggies have received their bonk with the nerf bat.

I would agree on the number of Koptas (6 for morale means we will need to spend 2 cp on auto pass strat) but there is a case for the mortal wound when charging strat,combined with ramming speed, which just feels wasted with a 3 Kopta squadron.
I will first try 3*3, then 2*5 I think. F..ing GW

I think we need to find a way to make While we stand we fight or grind them down work, because after engagé on all fronts, the last secondary will be tough against some armies…

Overall I am not pleased at all with this supplement, I think they could not have done worse if they had tried. Of course this is a matter of personal preference, but I really would have liked any theme other than BA and speed freaks

Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?

What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?

Kebabcito wrote:
Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?

What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?

There is a strat that for 1cp deffkoptas do d3 mortal wounds on charge
Speed mod gives them 1 atk on charge but deffkoptas do 3 atks with each atk with spinning blades
There is a chance you can take a specialist mob with speed mob as neither ability is a kultur and both abilities only block kulturs. Meaning you can have -1ap boomboys to make your rokkits better
5+ invul from speedmob (and -1to hit) makes a deffkopta a bit more durable

Deffkoptas got tremendously boosted from speedmob BUT they are still fragile
Except for a 2cp strat that completely removes them from the board even out of combat
Meaning they can completely avoid all return fire a turn and you can redeploy and charge again.

gungo wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:
Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?

What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?

There is a strat that for 1cp deffkoptas do d3 mortal wounds on charge
Speed mod gives them 1 atk on charge but deffkoptas do 3 atks with each atk with spinning blades
There is a chance you can take a specialist mob with speed mob as neither ability is a kultur and both abilities only block kulturs. Meaning you can have -1ap boomboys to make your rokkits better
5+ invul from speedmob (and -1to hit) makes a deffkopta a bit more durable

Deffkoptas got tremendously boosted from speedmob BUT they are still fragile
Except for a 2cp strat that completely removes them from the board even out of combat
Meaning they can completely avoid all return fire a turn and you can redeploy and charge again.

Gungo, Goonhammer said the strat gave « most vehicules » MW on a 4+ per model, but for now, we can’t know for sure Deffkoptas will have this. Just like you I assume they will get it, but we need to prepare for disappointment, just in case. We still don’t know for sure if boomboyz or the cover save for flyers specialist mob will for sure be able to stack with speed mob.

 addnid wrote:

gungo wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:
Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?

What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?

There is a strat that for 1cp deffkoptas do d3 mortal wounds on charge
Speed mod gives them 1 atk on charge but deffkoptas do 3 atks with each atk with spinning blades
There is a chance you can take a specialist mob with speed mob as neither ability is a kultur and both abilities only block kulturs. Meaning you can have -1ap boomboys to make your rokkits better
5+ invul from speedmob (and -1to hit) makes a deffkopta a bit more durable

Deffkoptas got tremendously boosted from speedmob BUT they are still fragile
Except for a 2cp strat that completely removes them from the board even out of combat
Meaning they can completely avoid all return fire a turn and you can redeploy and charge again.

Gungo, Goonhammer said the strat gave « most vehicules » MW on a 4+ per model, but for now, we can’t know for sure Deffkoptas will have this. Just like you I assume they will get it, but we need to prepare for disappointment, just in case. We still don’t know for sure if boomboyz or the cover save for flyers specialist mob will for sure be able to stack with speed mob.

you got to stop taking goonhammer as gospel..
There is literally a screen grab 2 pages back on this forum and I’ve seen complete page scans
It’s 3 parts 1cp on a single speedfreak unit
Warbikers do a mw on 4+ Per model
Vehicles (except scrapjets and boostablasta) do d3 mw on 4+ Per model
Scrapjets and boostablasta do d3mw on 2-5 and 2d3 mortals on 6 per model (can’t use spike ram ability)

The specialist mob thing I’m just guessing (hence I said chance) cause although I’ve seen multiple full page scans. That restriction could be a 1 line item hidden somewhere that simply says you can’t take specialist mobs… although I haven’t seen it yet and I think it’s something they missed.

So, 5 koptas would do an average of 5 MW, a full unit of warbikers averages to 4.5 and trios of KBB and scrapjets are 6 MW.

Honestly, I think this is a good stratagem no matter how you set it up, so big units of koptas aren't that mandatory.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, 5 koptas would do an average of 5 MW, a full unit of warbikers averages to 4.5 and trios of KBB and scrapjets are 6 MW.

Honestly, I think this is a good stratagem no matter how you set it up, so big units of koptas aren't that mandatory.

Sorry maximum of 6 d6 rolls to do mortal wounds
So 6-9 warbikers average 3
6+ deffkoptas average 6 (3x other buggies = 3)
3 scrap/kbb buggies average 6 but you can’t use spike ram ability

3mw for cp still isn’t bad but 6 is awesome

Kebabcito wrote:
Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?

What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?

dude. It only works for aircrafts.

The 5++ doesnt give a furry fart about our ground troops who lack aircraft keyword sadly.

Ah, true. 6 koptas are just asking for getting shot with blasts though. PBCs or wazzboms will essentially be getting free kills off a unit they want to kill anyways.

Catching up with stuff, I have found this article on goonhammer with a bunch of interesting ork lists:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

Among them one guy who runs kill rigs full of beastsnagga boyz with SJD and wazzbomms, lootas in a tournament winning list and a guy who went with pure ES.
Or, in other words, you can get a way with pretty much anything as long as you spam squigbuggies, scrapjets and planes.

Ah thanks Gungo I didn’t see the scans. I don’t take anything as gospel, as a rule, hah hah.

I like that 5 def koptas, with the strat, can nearly kill an ad mech stratoraptor (if the stratoraptor has a 2+, If 3+ then he dead) upon the charge. 5 MWs from the stratagem, then 4 or 5 wounds from the kopta attacks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, true. 6 koptas are just asking for getting shot with blasts though. PBCs or wazzboms will essentially be getting free kills off a unit they want to kill anyways.

Catching up with stuff, I have found this article on goonhammer with a bunch of interesting ork lists:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

Among them one guy who runs kill rigs full of beastsnagga boyz with SJD and wazzbomms, lootas in a tournament winning list and a guy who went with pure ES.
Or, in other words, you can get a way with pretty much anything as long as you spam squigbuggies, scrapjets and planes.

Ya I’d do 5 for a little safety
In conjunction with out da sun strat you basically ignore shooting for a turn
The fact it works in combat is insane
but 3-4 cp just to do shoot, do mortal wounds on charge, do 45 atks and then disappear to do it again next turn is cool but lot of cp

Now hold on just a minute.

If you are running an actual speed freeks renown army i can see a place for 6 deffkoptas.

When presenting armies, its quite easy to make out if a unit can get hold of your deffkoptas, who mind you, can advance and shoot so distance really isnt their biggest issue anymore if it ever was. You can just place them at the far back if you want.

So if any enemies can get hold of your 6 deffkoptas, just put them in deepstrike.

If not, then you can fly up the board, shoot and use 2CP to just fly off the board again at the end of your turn, just to re-appear again in the next turn.

I can definitely see a use for 6 deffkoptas with the new army of renown as they really arent going to get killed any time soon.


Or just start them off in deepstrike, appear turn 2, shoot, charge, fly off, appear turn 3, rinse and repeat. By the time you've done this once their entire cost should have been repaid id say.

I mean thier shooting isn’t that much more a threat in an army of renown. Sure they can adv and fire but then they can’t charge. There is a chance they can be boomboys but that’s just -1ap.

You really want to charge. And the fight phase is where they got a big boost with an extra atk (3) and the mortal wound on charge strat. That’s the only reason to take 5/6.

It’s a lot of cp to protect a unit like that and it might be safer just to use 3x3. But it’s a cool trick that does decent mortal wounds for 2 turns if you can charge both turns.

Beardedragon wrote:
Now hold on just a minute.

If you are running an actual speed freeks renown army i can see a place for 6 deffkoptas.

When presenting armies, its quite easy to make out if a unit can get hold of your deffkoptas, who mind you, can advance and shoot so distance really isnt their biggest issue anymore if it ever was. You can just place them at the far back if you want.

So if any enemies can get hold of your 6 deffkoptas, just put them in deepstrike.

If not, then you can fly up the board, shoot and use 2CP to just fly off the board again at the end of your turn, just to re-appear again in the next turn.

I can definitely see a use for 6 deffkoptas with the new army of renown as they really arent going to get killed any time soon.


Or just start them off in deepstrike, appear turn 2, shoot, charge, fly off, appear turn 3, rinse and repeat. By the time you've done this once their entire cost should have been repaid id say.

Almost every army that's currently doing well has some way of taking out hiding light vehicles, as that is kind of a prerequisite to defeat the big two that are dominating everything, as well as orks.

Their costs are 300 points plus the opportunity cost of taking the speed freeks army in the first place. You then spend 2 CP for ramming speed, 1 more for crashing through, 2 CP to pick them back up. Next turn, you spend 2 more for ramming speed and another for crashing through again. Assuming that you didn't get overwatched, auspex-scanned or lost a model in combat, that's 2x 8 MW, 5 dead MEQ/13.33 dmg to vehicles from shooting and 6 dead MEQ/6 dmg to vehicles in melee. A bunch of that is going to get lost in overkill, but eh.

So it's not too bad, but not exactly loota star levels either. There are plenty of stratagems and relics that can ruin this plan, let alone the low variance on these averages. When you try to assassinate a target that can actually fight back and you roll below average, it can easily ruin you.

Double post**

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Now hold on just a minute.

If you are running an actual speed freeks renown army i can see a place for 6 deffkoptas.

When presenting armies, its quite easy to make out if a unit can get hold of your deffkoptas, who mind you, can advance and shoot so distance really isnt their biggest issue anymore if it ever was. You can just place them at the far back if you want.

So if any enemies can get hold of your 6 deffkoptas, just put them in deepstrike.

If not, then you can fly up the board, shoot and use 2CP to just fly off the board again at the end of your turn, just to re-appear again in the next turn.

I can definitely see a use for 6 deffkoptas with the new army of renown as they really arent going to get killed any time soon.


Or just start them off in deepstrike, appear turn 2, shoot, charge, fly off, appear turn 3, rinse and repeat. By the time you've done this once their entire cost should have been repaid id say.

Almost every army that's currently doing well has some way of taking out hiding light vehicles, as that is kind of a prerequisite to defeat the big two that are dominating everything, as well as orks.

Their costs are 300 points plus the opportunity cost of taking the speed freeks army in the first place. You then spend 2 CP for ramming speed, 1 more for crashing through, 2 CP to pick them back up. Next turn, you spend 2 more for ramming speed and another for crashing through again. Assuming that you didn't get overwatched, auspex-scanned or lost a model in combat, that's 2x 8 MW, 5 dead MEQ/13.33 dmg to vehicles from shooting and 6 dead MEQ/6 dmg to vehicles in melee. A bunch of that is going to get lost in overkill, but eh.

So it's not too bad, but not exactly loota star levels either. There are plenty of stratagems and relics that can ruin this plan, let alone the low variance on these averages. When you try to assassinate a target that can actually fight back and you roll below average, it can easily ruin you.

to my defence i dont think i would pick the Mortal wounds stratagem i cant remember the name of, next to ramming speed.

I'd probably do that on my warbikers maybe. or something else.

And i dont think after i had picked up my deffkoptas that i would ramming speed them in again, because by then (if i started in deepstrike) we've reached turn 3 and a lot should be dead by then given the army of renown is a generally shooty army.

Turn 2 deepstrike, shoot, ramming speed, fly out
Turn 3: shoot, hopefully get off a charge (if not, how much is even alive at the end of turn 3?), stay on the board.
Turn 4: if they die, they die.

 Emicrania wrote:
I believe there is a list out there for the Speed Freaks army. Since I hate the FB list and I´m doing fairly good with my triple squigboss treath, Board control and half MSU is always a good thing and there are nice combo to take advantage of:

ES Outrider
Deffkilla watrike Warlord and Relic (Fasta than Youz + Redder paint+ MW on CC Kustom Job)
9x Warbikers +PK
9x Warbikers +PK
5x Warbikers +PK
1 Nitro Squig RTS
1 RTS
1 RTS
1 Dakkajet 6x Supashoota

ES Outrider
Warboss on warbike +Relic Klaw and Killy but Brutal
1x MTSJ
1x MTSJ
1x MTSJ with Chains (MW on fall back)
3x Deffkoptas
3x Deffkoptas
1 Dakkajet 6x Supashoota

-------------

The deffkilla is in for abusing adv+charge bikes T1 and 2 when he should be up there, giving fight last, in order to nuke mid,easy targets.
The Warbikers is killing caracthers or veichles. (1 warbiker boss = 1 dead Dreadknight :( )
The warbikers on Speedwaahg turn shoots 108 shots AND have AP1 AND move 20" and shoots AND for 1 Cp rerolls 1 to hit AND get +1A on charge AND they are obsec AND they have 5++ AND can get +1AP and 1S for 2CP... just dont charge stuff that spam D3 and you are good to go.
The squigs are backfield or frontrow to screen (Yep. often those 2d6 mortar shots wont do much)
The MTSJ are there to do their job + use Crashing Trhu, if possible with warbikers.
Deffkoptas can use the new strat and move 20" and shoot their rockets.
Planes might get nerfed to 1 per detachment so they are there for thatand use the reroll 1 to hit strat to snipe char or clean chaff.
You get 7+5 CP to spam reroll to hits, autopass +warboss morale strat and crashing trhu + Chaaarge.


I think it has legs and might really counter 120 skitarii and drukhari. You can also effectvively cover an entire obj only by sheer base size.

Forgot a MANDATORY -1 to hit from the deffkoptas in the back that basically cover the whole army. So you start with 5, if you go second

Good list and made me rethink my list. Instead of going all in on freebooter there isn’t a lot of reason to do that so evil suns was good for the warbiker detachment.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801817.page#11250428
So now Dakkajets get +1 to hit and a warbikers unit can advance, shoot and charge with the target fighting last and I only lose freebooter banner.

Another option for the Speed Mob without using Ramming Speed on the Deffkoptas might be to run them as Evil Sunz and use 1 CP each turn to hide them again with Drive by Dakka.

Basically i see two valid options for Speed Mob:

Running them as Freebooters to trigger competetive streak for 3-4 planes with loads of buggies, Koptas and Warbikers + driving around with a Warboss with ObSec, ard as nails and Deathskull banna.

Evil Sunz with faster than yooz to slingshot Warbikers and use Drive by Dakka on a big squad of Koptas with Rezmekkas paint on your HQ of choice to sweeten things up.


While you can go for 3 detachments if you really want to go for tripple Warboss, i think taking two will be just fine and leaves you with a little bit more CP than you usual Ork lists, 7-9 CP gives enough to play with the new strats.

I don't really see a reason for tripple warboss builds in a speed freeks army though. You can't have beastbosses and the third detachment is 3 CP since you can only have outrider detachments.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Really sad the Speed Mob will never profit from a regular Waaagh. Would have made for a neat Warbike first turn strike.

Otherwise I think its a valid alternative to the Freebooters Buggy Spam as you skip the competetive streak gamble for the wound rerolls. Also the ObSec warboss with Badskull Banner and ARD as nails sounds like a fun objective stealer.

But to be fair the restrictions on Secondaries are tough, that list really needs to cripple an opponent turn 1-2.

Still I really like it, have always been a fan of the Speedwaaagh without infantry and this will be great for anything up to semi competetive, not sure if it will reach our top 3 builds.

Correct me if I am wrong...but you can take a Speed Mob with a Regular WAAAAGH! The only thing you have to do is make the Speed Mob a Secondary detachment and put a foot sloggin Warboss as your Warlord....Which with that in mind, Deffkoptas would be getting 12 attacks each! 2 base, +1 for Speedmob and +1 for WAAAAGH. If you want to be insane and really stack on the buffs, you could give them +1 attack from a Weirdboy to get them up to 15 attacks each LOL.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Really sad the Speed Mob will never profit from a regular Waaagh. Would have made for a neat Warbike first turn strike.

Otherwise I think its a valid alternative to the Freebooters Buggy Spam as you skip the competetive streak gamble for the wound rerolls. Also the ObSec warboss with Badskull Banner and ARD as nails sounds like a fun objective stealer.

But to be fair the restrictions on Secondaries are tough, that list really needs to cripple an opponent turn 1-2.

Still I really like it, have always been a fan of the Speedwaaagh without infantry and this will be great for anything up to semi competetive, not sure if it will reach our top 3 builds.

Correct me if I am wrong...but you can take a Speed Mob with a Regular WAAAAGH! The only thing you have to do is make the Speed Mob a Secondary detachment and put a foot sloggin Warboss as your Warlord....Which with that in mind, Deffkoptas would be getting 12 attacks each! 2 base, +1 for Speedmob and +1 for WAAAAGH. If you want to be insane and really stack on the buffs, you could give them +1 attack from a Weirdboy to get them up to 15 attacks each LOL.

Speed Mob is an Army of Renown, like every other Army of Renown the restrictions are applied to all detachments in the army.

Yes.. it really ruined my plans for running Ghaz with army of renown warbikers..

SemperMortis wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong...but you can take a Speed Mob with a Regular WAAAAGH! The only thing you have to do is make the Speed Mob a Secondary detachment and put a foot sloggin Warboss as your Warlord....Which with that in mind, Deffkoptas would be getting 12 attacks each! 2 base, +1 for Speedmob and +1 for WAAAAGH. If you want to be insane and really stack on the buffs, you could give them +1 attack from a Weirdboy to get them up to 15 attacks each LOL.

You are wrong

Speed Mob imposes its restrictions and benefits on your entire army.


In case anyone still hasn't seen it, in this video you can see the whole book:

Nice page by page preview
I even stopped and read the pages on army of renown and speedfreak…
There is nothing in this campaign book that prevents you from making an army of renown unit into a specialist mob… and neither ability is a kultur so they both stack…
However do remember that a specialist unit is <klan> “Specialist name” so any auras or abilities that effect your detachments actual klan will not work. I think in speed mob it only means you can’t use breakin heads strat.

Speedmob deffkopta boomboys are a go!
Or kustom boosta blasta pyromaniac

Not sure what’s better 3x deffkoptas w/ 6d3 rokkits w/ -1 Ap
or 1x KBB w 4d6 flamers that can only roll min 3 hits?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Another option for the Speed Mob without using Ramming Speed on the Deffkoptas might be to run them as Evil Sunz and use 1 CP each turn to hide them again with Drive by Dakka.

Basically i see two valid options for Speed Mob:

Running them as Freebooters to trigger competetive streak for 3-4 planes with loads of buggies, Koptas and Warbikers + driving around with a Warboss with ObSec, ard as nails and Deathskull banna.

Evil Sunz with faster than yooz to slingshot Warbikers and use Drive by Dakka on a big squad of Koptas with Rezmekkas paint on your HQ of choice to sweeten things up.


While you can go for 3 detachments if you really want to go for tripple Warboss, i think taking two will be just fine and leaves you with a little bit more CP than you usual Ork lists, 7-9 CP gives enough to play with the new strats.

I mean use both
The evil sun outrider detachment with 3x bike units, deffkopta unit, and 2x buggies
Then freebooter outrider detachment with 3x squigbuggies and 2x scrapjets and 1x deffkopta and 2x dakkajets

That entire freebooter detachment should trigger +1 to hit for the dakkajets
And the evil sun ability to charge after adv only works on core warbikers anyway

 Jidmah wrote:


You are wrong

Speed Mob imposes its restrictions and benefits on your entire army.


In case anyone still hasn't seen it, in this video you can see the whole book:

Oh well. With that in mind, I don't really see it being a buff over regular Freeboota list. It trades a 50% reduction in dmg output. (BS4+ going back to 5+) for an extra pip of AP on your attacks, being more mobile and being better in CC on the charge and of course the extra protection of an army wide 5++ if you advance...but if you do you can't charge and use the CC portion at all. Its a nice change up, but its more of the same I think.

I am a bit more impressed with the Blood axe supplement. Definitely a couple of extra tricks which are helpful and I will consider adding to my Alphork strike. I especially like the +2 to charge, I very well might change out some units again and add in some blobs of Stormboyz for that Turn 2 7' charge. It would keep 330+ pts in reserve and safe until turn 2 and I would have a somewhat reliable re-rollable 7' charge out of deep strike. Only problem is that in my list I am in my opponents face turn 1 and usually compress the areas I can feasibly deploy them in turn 2. We will see.

Yeah, agree with that. Speed freeks is a fun sidegrade and bloodaxes is a mixed bag of efficient tricks to add on top of a traditional waaagh! army.

True. im pretty stoked about fielding large quantities of stormboys and kommandos.

I mean blood axe supplement doesn’t take anything away and gives more options if you want to make more use out of kommandos or stormboys. It’s not earth shattering but blood axes was already decent and this just makes them better. I may actually like the blood axe kustom shoota relic better then the codex version, but again minor upgrade. It’s a decent supplement given the fact it doesn’t make bloodaxes noticeably better then goff or deathskulls.

However I kinda think the speedmob is ever slightly better then freebooter speed waggh for competitive lists. It may not have the big wins vs certain lists but will be more reliable overall.

The worst part of the speedmob is that you literally have no real choices in list design. Every speedmob list is going to be near identical. BUT you still take 2 detachments and your aircraft in the freebooter detachment will still get the freebooter +1 to hit… your evilsun biker detachment is just immensely better..
You lose out on the +1 to hit on the buggies but gain reroll 1 to wound aura. Multiple useful strategems. Much better deffkoptas.. obj secured units which most buggy lists lacked, a strategem to fall back and shoot, the ability to move and advance and shoot for better targeting or avoidance, move adv shoot and charge for a warbiker unit, universal 6++ invul and 5++ pretty much the rest of the game after your first move, better mobility and survivability with a little loss in first turn offensive ability. I mean I feel speedmob boomboys deffkoptas are overall better then kmk mekguns. Just looking at the speedmob list I feel I can use more CP to play it.
I mean if i had more cp I could take 6x deffkoptas 1 with big bomb, and ramming speed the unit for up to 8d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (1 is 2+). That’s insane your averaging almost 9 mortal wounds on charge followed by 45 deffkopta atks. 3cp is still a lot for that and the big bomb only works on move not charge range but still it’s a lot.

IMO the big downside of the speed mob is that you lose kommadoz and storm boyz. Almost every list placing well currently uses those to score secondaries, and three units of bikers will not be able to compensate for that.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO the big downside of the speed mob is that you lose kommadoz and storm boyz. Almost every list placing well currently uses those to score secondaries, and three units of bikers will not be able to compensate for that.

The socal list had no infantry but a big Mek… and the 18x buggy list in the London major had the same.
And I’m not thrilled with storm boys as they are extremely fragile but yes a lot of the other well rounded lists lean heavily on those units for activations which the speedmob can’t do at all. However I think multiple units of warbikers are durable for the in speed mob.. t5 3w (nob 4w) 4+sv 5++ invul and -1 to hit takes a lot to deal with. Throw in ~20x of those.

But I agree I would have loved to have kommandos if simply to have another unit in speedmob outside of fast atk slot. And they are probably our best point value unit. To be fair I’ll likely not play this list as I don’t feel like building 3x boxes of bikers as I only have 12x warbikers and a warboss on bike and 6x deffkoptas ; and I can’t even try out a speedmob version of this list unless you have these exact units… so I’m just going to stick with my beast snagga Killrig/buggy list. I’ll let the meta chasers decide if it’s better.