Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah blood axes new stuff seems really tailored to infantry play for the most part. Biggest speedwaugh upgrade is still provided by infantry (Spotted Em!) I think the big thing the blood axes tricks give you is flexibility, especially your kommandos. Now your kommandos can even more reliably kill things in melee, provide assistance for shooting, and are an even better screen for countercharge play. They even got a big defensive boost with duck an cova, I just wish we had a way to infiltrate a character that can take it.

There is an absolutely brutal first turn charge infantry list in there for blood axes. Maybe not something that will take top tables, but its going to ruin someones day. Lots of stormboyz, kommandos, trukk boyz, warbikers, and some fire support to taste, and you have a pretty cool army there. Especially with abilities like being able to advance and do actions, a sniper shoota relic, and all the other weird little things they can do.

For example. You could take Duck and Cover with Fight detector to protect a home objective. Opponent cant shoot unless theyre within 12", meaning theyll want to deepstrike a unit in to take them out. If they deepstrike the unit close enough to shoot, odds are theyre close enougg for fight detecta to proc. Probably not something youd use a lot but could be handy if something like tau deepstriking suits or IG stormtrooper doom drops became real common. If nothing else, a fun thing to use for friendly games.

Freeboota buggy lists without infantry has been already seen on top places I believe. These units in such list screen. Do not score. Screen.

Because you don' t need to score if the opponent is dead T2.

And the only strategy to win with such list is to table opponent asap.

And you can screen with jets/bikers/koptas too.


However. There is one detail to see with the Speedmob in general.

Any of your moves will be an advance. Even 1” move will be advance (6 forward, 5 backward) to get 5++. Even stationary units will advance (6” forward, 5,999” back). Which is little bit “that guy” system imho…

So it' s full 5++.

Except if you go second. It is before you move, so in such case, in the moment you need 5++ the most, you get just 6++.

yeah kinda weird they didnt put a "end their move X distance from their last position" restriction in there.
Even if it was just 6" it would force them to move and sometimes block a vehicle or two from getting the 5++

 Tomsug wrote:
Freeboota buggy lists without infantry has been already seen on top places I believe. These units in such list screen. Do not score. Screen.

Because you don' t need to score if the opponent is dead T2.

And the only strategy to win with such list is to table opponent asap.

And you can screen with jets/bikers/koptas too.

That might be, but when I went through articles on goonhammer for the past few weekends, the overwhelming majority of high placing lists did have those. And I honestly can't picture such a list doing well when running into Death Guard, Dark Angel or Custodes which still have a relevant amount players in tournaments.

 Tomsug wrote:
Freeboota buggy lists without infantry has been already seen on top places I believe. These units in such list screen. Do not score. Screen.

Because you don' t need to score if the opponent is dead T2.

And the only strategy to win with such list is to table opponent asap.

And you can screen with jets/bikers/koptas too.


However. There is one detail to see with the Speedmob in general.

Any of your moves will be an advance. Even 1” move will be advance (6 forward, 5 backward) to get 5++. Even stationary units will advance (6” forward, 5,999” back). Which is little bit “that guy” system imho…

So it' s full 5++.

Except if you go second. It is before you move, so in such case, in the moment you need 5++ the most, you get just 6++.

I mean the socal list and London GT 18x buggy spam won it all but as you said did it with alpha strike lists with good matchups at the end. As jidmah said these lists had issues with admech and deathguard in those tournaments which they didn’t face in the final tables or won it all despite losing those games during the tournament.

The speedmob lists tend to lose a little alpha strike potential for more move, assault, and obj secured play. Which is better for longer games. My gut says the list is better overall as it’s less swingy and less dependant on alpha strikes. However dropping warbikers and deffkoptas even in speedmob is still easier then ramshackle buggies and aircraft spam.

How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.

Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.

 Niiai wrote:
How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.

Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.

It's pretty brutal. If there's one thing GW is worse at than pricing appropriately for shooting units with BS5+ it's pricing appropriately for units with poor leadership and no morale mitigation. The price increase on Boyz was unwarranted when they'd already compensated for the buffs they'd given with the nerf to mob rule. I do think straight up ignoring morale is fairly lame and don't think the old version of mob rule ought to have remained, but this was the wrong way to address it.

Few reasons to ever break the 3, 5 or 10 unit sizes

Elite multi wound units with ld6 stay at 3 if possible

Elite leadership 7 units try to stay at 5

Horde units ld7 try to stay at 10…

U need some pretty generous buffs or combos to break the 10+ unit size with ld6/7.

The warboss or Waagh banner should have had a breaking heads type aura built in…

 Niiai wrote:
How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.

Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.

Essentially, I'm simply not running units of more than 10 models anymore. It rarely factors anywhere else except when you have expensive multi-wound models like koptas, kanz or mek guns. Those you just run in threes.

I think it's a good thing that morale matters now, though I feel like it is a bit overtuned for boyz - mobs of 20 should not be a total liability like they are now.

Madjob wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.

Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.

It's pretty brutal. If there's one thing GW is worse at than pricing appropriately for shooting units with BS5+ it's pricing appropriately for units with poor leadership and no morale mitigation. The price increase on Boyz was unwarranted when they'd already compensated for the buffs they'd given with the nerf to mob rule. I do think straight up ignoring morale is fairly lame and don't think the old version of mob rule ought to have remained, but this was the wrong way to address it.

It pretty much highlights GW's problem with rules writing for morale in general. They put it in the game but then faction rules or strats either straight up let you ignore it (i.e. synapse or Rubric Marines) or you have enough ways to mitigate it that it through MSU or stuff like ATSKNF that its effectively only going to only come up like once or twice a game.

It's been a problem even since 5th ed, it's always been an all or nothing affair and smaller units have almost always been able to game the system too. Fearless with No Retreat meant power armoured guys like KB would be able to tank the losses they suffered in combat from morale whereas sufficient losses on the side of a big mob of boyz meant we could lose an entire unit depending on how many boyz died in combat. The worst part is that some factions suffer from it more disproportionately than others. Morale really should be about debuffs on a unit rather than fleeing, like -1 to hit, halved movement, being unable to do actions, etc.

I mean a smarter system would have made it so larger units mitigate morale issues better BUT blast weapons do more damage to larger units.
Instead the both blasts and morale are better with smaller units.

I mean mob rule would have been better if most ork units were leadership 6 and every 5 models gave them +1 leadership. With units like vehicles hq, and nobs being ld7 and a very few solo models being ld8

This would work best making orks strong morale mitigation early but as they take casualties the units fall apart. I also think Gw moved the ignore morale abilities into ignore attrition abilities now which is almost as bad.

Morale is a weird thing anyways when in the fluff essentially all but two factions wouldn't hesitate one second before charging a building-sized daemon towering above them. And one of those factions would do it anyways after their superior officer was shot in the head by a comissar.

 Jidmah wrote:
Morale is a weird thing anyways when in the fluff essentially all but two factions wouldn't hesitate one second before charging a building-sized daemon towering above them. And one of those factions would do it anyways after their superior officer was shot in the head by a comissar.

Yeah, 40k's setting is such that regular ideas of morale in warfare basically don't exist since so many warriors have either a death wish, are inured to fear, or are automotons. So when you do lose a model to morale, it's supposed to potentially reflect people dragging back their wounded amongst other things but it ultimately feels like a very "lose more" mechanic when it should be more nuanced especially for armies that are like Necrons or Nids where they wouldn't care about casualties.

yeah running more than 10 boyz is stupid now.

More nobz +1
More units for objs/actions +1
Easier to move through terrain +1
Never have half the unit unable to swing +1
Morale fails just as often for big units as small units but you roll way less 1-2's on the attrition test +1
Can fit in trukks w/o issue +1

What do bigass mobs giv eyou?
A giant bullseye for blast weapons and the typical 10+ AP1 shot weapons -1
Average 3-6 extra deaths from poke-damage morale failure -1
Issues squeezing into melee -1
Literally no extra perks due to their size -1
Technically better target for stratagems such as More Dakka or Badmoonz Strat +1

For some stupid reason Mob Rule is only looking at the "half strength" trigger not how many models are actually in the unit now. So now a random squad of 3 nobz sitting near some boyz can prevent said boyz from running away on a 2. And thats such a minor buff anyway.

Previously: 10 bolter shots hit 30 boyz = 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3-4 dead orks, impossible to fail morale.
Now: 10 bolters shots hit 40 boyz = 7 hits = 2-3 wounds = 2-3 dead orks and can fail morale on a 50-50 roll. If they fail, 1 dies and now roll 26 flippin dice which typically is 4-6 MORE that die for a total of 7-9 on average (not 100% exact math but close enough).
The morale nerf hurt ork boyz way harder than the T5 buffed them. AND they cost more.

Big blobs of orks are useless, never field more than 10 again.
Its legit a big enough issue ive thought about fielding the core rule book Leadership warlord trait somewhere, since the ork ones arent really that great for a Big Mek generally.

Looks like buggies got the nerfbat in the new rules update. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/

Edit: No point hike but now limited to 1 unit of each buggy for your army.

seriously? that is fething stupid beyond stupid.
Lets prevent them from getting multiple buggies with kustom jobs
Actually lets prevent them from using multiple buggies too if they want kustom jobs.

Thats an even bigger knee-jerk reaction than the Tau Commander spam lists. This is ARMY WIDE limit of 1, not per detachment.
Jesus freaking christ what an overreacted nerf.

For those who need to see it with their own eyes.


Hilariously, this doesn't affect my army list at all, since I've been playing it highlander style anyways

Should have just removed squadron, and make it single buggie per slot. Would have been better in most cases.

blufury wrote:
Should have just removed squadron, and make it single buggie per slot. Would have been better in most cases.

Literally was not the issue so it would not have changed a thing.

Nobody is spamming 9 of a buggy, only in theory they are. The actual lists being ran are 3x1 squads, which are unaffected by removing squads.

This technically doesnt affect me since the only buggies i have repeats of are Squigbuggies and Boostablastas (which i have 2 of rather than 1). But i didnt like running them as a squad purely because squads of a model that big are obnoxious.

They need to bring back the splitting and/or multimodel kustom jobs now. Limited to 1 in the entire ARMY is bullgak

They need to bring back the splitting and/or multimodel kustom jobs now.

That's what I mean by removing squadrons. I ran a 2 unit squigbuggy and 1 nitro squig. You will rarely see kustom jobs now, esp since the squigbuggie has the best job.

Way to go Games workshop. Let add a "fix" that creates new issues and doesnt work well with our own rules of kustom jobs. They're just bowing down to peer pressure and making a fast "fix" rather than actually thinking properly about how to make this work with a proper thought through nerf.


And im assuming theres no increase to leadership, so if 2 scrapjets dies, i should casually accept that i lose 90 points to morale if i roll a 6.

Thanks daddy games workshop.

I think most orks players dont mind a balance nerf to buggies but this is the most slowed update ive ever seen. I wasnt even capable of comprehending such a stupid way of balancing buggies so it hadnt even crossed my mind this could be a thing.

I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
seriously? that is fething stupid beyond stupid.
Lets prevent them from getting multiple buggies with kustom jobs
Actually lets prevent them from using multiple buggies too if they want kustom jobs.

Thats an even bigger knee-jerk reaction than the Tau Commander spam lists. This is ARMY WIDE limit of 1, not per detachment.
Jesus freaking christ what an overreacted nerf.

Makes kustom jobs absolutely useless on buggies and that’s all this does..
People will still spam 6-9 buggies. And an ever slight chance to overkill a buggy if the ork doesn’t go first… it does little to slow first turn surge.

I’d be fine with this if kustom jobs were allowed on a model in a unit.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)

All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.

At least Boosta Blastas and Dragstas will have their comeback now.

3 Squigbuggies, 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets, 3 Boosta Blastas, 1 Dakkajet and 1 Wazbom it is.
Or maybe just 2 of each except the Squigbuggy to be safe morale wise.

I really wish they had just made it something like 1 Buggy per Slot or maybe even 1 per detachment each.
I'd rather field 2 x 1 than 1 x 3 tbh.

Madjob wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)

All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.

Why is units of 1 shokk jump bad?
Regardless none of these slot restrictions stops buggy spam from winning people will still take 2-3 of the best buggies. You just might see 2-3 KBB or shock jumps as well now. I mean the socal list was 3x squig, 3 scrap, 1 kbb, 1shokk. (4 planes though)

I really don’t like the kustom job on buggy nerf. They were mostly bad already but it was a good place to drop a few extra points leftover on list building.

Oh wait. this might fly under the radar for most of you guys, but we are also limited to 2 flyers in a single strike force battle.


Which is sad, i ran 3 flyers.

gungo wrote:

Madjob wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)

All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.

Why is units of 1 shokk jump bad?
Regardless none of these slot restrictions stops buggy spam from winning people will still take 2-3 of the best buggies. You just might see 2-3 KBB or shock jumps as well now. I mean the socal list was 3x squig, 3 scrap, 1 kbb, 1shokk. (4 planes though)

I really don’t like the kustom job on buggy nerf. They were mostly bad already but it was a good place to drop a few extra points leftover on list building.

My bad, I totally misread his post and thought he was asking for 0-1 on each buggy datasheet, not 1 model per FoC choice.

Madjob wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)

All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.

There actually has been a tournament winning list running two SJD - they are part of the kill rig/wazbom list.

What a time to have bought two extra scrapjets for variety, dammit. Im lucky compared to kost though. Still that limit is ridiculous. Wheres the dark eldar raider limit? The admech ironstrider limit? Couldve just done a points increase