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DoktaRoksta wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just always flips out when orks are meta, still pouring one out for nob bikers, the salt is fresh in the wound for Sags, and a good hunk of my mek guns and now buggies being unplayable is a fresh slap in the face.

Wait, Mek gunz? Do you mean with the switch to 9th or did I miss something with this FAQ?
I do get the feeling that Orks aren’t “supposed” to be competitive in the opinion of the community or GW. Fluffy yes, comic relief sure but never a serious threat. It’s a real shame.

We went from max 18 (something people ran) to max 9

We are and we will be a serious threat.

Today is a time to be angry and complain, but we will be fine.

Delete the “if go first, kill everything” kind of the list is always good and this time it was our turn.

I just don' t like the “system” they use for this nerf. It makes a mess and it is stupid.

And it does not solve the problem.
The problem is, that we have no chance to score. So we need to delete enemy ASAP. So any kind of our succesfull list will be “if go first, kill everything” kind of the list and the story will be the same.

Fix ork secondaries and orks start to be kunnin.

The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.

All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.

 Dendarien wrote:
The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.

All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.

The freebooter speedwaagh went no where it’s just as strong if not stronger due to ad mech nerfs….
I mean the point hike in CA may kill it a bit but this nerf did little to address it.

Also orks aren’t being touched again rules wise til 10th Ed. Point adjustment here and there that’s it. 3 years minimum you are stuck with this. Considering the survey they just sent out said they are planning on the next edition now.

 Dendarien wrote:
The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.

I'll just say i'm dying for the Tau, Astra, and Craftworld codexes to hit the table just to see people getting a seizure at how worse it will be.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I’m glad orks never change, we’re already back to being the off-meta it seems.

I can't help but feel the irony in comments like this while people claim this FAQ by GW was knee jerk.

I mean come on they nerf flyers 2 weeks after the last major tournament was won by an ork player who abused flyer bases… no other major tournament since had that issue since.

The Internet lost thier proverbial gak with numerous threads with titles like nerf orks, ork player wipes out 1800 pts first turn and game is to lethal…

Shortly followed by a rare almost never seen emergency rules update to nerf flyers oh and nerf orks… with the added bonus of moving up the admech and drukari point updates which was already planned months ago and printed in the CA book a little earlier…

But sure this wasn’t knee jerk reaction to orks winning at all…

Again...Admech flyers were a problem waaaay before Orks. Orks just got hit as a side-effect. The buggies were ALSO a problem and people should have been well aware of their capabilities by now.

Again they already had admech points adjustment planned for next month. Nothing new from the last 6 months on admech flyers that entire time to have an emergency update except 1 tournament. After that ork win we get an emergency nerf 2 weeks later. I mean my toddler can follow this logic here.

Orks were the reason for this nerf. The side effect was releasing the already planned ad mech and drukari points changes earlier. In fact the only new nerfs were all ork related. No other army had nerfs that weren’t already planned. The entire emergency part was orks.

The good news is, that I' m back on 1 detachement with my buggy list now.

What shall I do with all these CP now?

gungo wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.

All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.

The freebooter speedwaagh went no where it’s just as strong if not stronger due to ad mech nerfs….
I mean the point hike in CA may kill it a bit but this nerf did little to address it.

Also orks aren’t being touched again rules wise til 10th Ed. Point adjustment here and there that’s it. 3 years minimum you are stuck with this. Considering the survey they just sent out said they are planning on the next edition now.

GW just showed they are willing to touch data sheet rules and not just points with the changes to Necrons who already have a 9th book.

Well, my list is done. Nothing serious. Show can go on. What next? When shall I expect the whole Chapter Approved?

I'm actually happy they made these changes. AS others have said the Freebootaz 4xFlyer list was a little crazy.

gungo wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.

All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.

The freebooter speedwaagh went no where it’s just as strong if not stronger due to ad mech nerfs….
I mean the point hike in CA may kill it a bit but this nerf did little to address it.

Also orks aren’t being touched again rules wise til 10th Ed. Point adjustment here and there that’s it. 3 years minimum you are stuck with this. Considering the survey they just sent out said they are planning on the next edition now.

Stuck with this? Umm...ain't that kind of ironic since all this salt is due to book being changed before new book came. Lol. Gw just proved you wrong today,

Hey guys, do any of you remember what the list was like with the 3 Kill tanks and ghaz and goffs? I cant find it anywhere. Id like to do something similar but i need a reference point.

I might actually dust off my shokkjump dragstas to replace some scrapjets.

They certainly aren't a bad unit in terms of firepower, probably not far from the scrapjets against armoured targets. They're really fast too, even without the deep strike shenanigans.

Or Snazzwagons for that matter. I certainly won't turn my nose up at lots of S5 AP-2 D2 shots.

gungo wrote:
Again they already had admech points adjustment planned for next month. Nothing new from the last 6 months on admech flyers that entire time to have an emergency update except 1 tournament. After that ork win we get an emergency nerf 2 weeks later. I mean my toddler can follow this logic here.

Orks were the reason for this nerf. The side effect was releasing the already planned ad mech and drukari points changes earlier. In fact the only new nerfs were all ork related. No other army had nerfs that weren’t already planned. The entire emergency part was orks.

So you think they suddenly and urgently released a regular quarterly update that only specifically targets buggies, because an Ork list with flyers, buggies, and freebootas won a tournament? Even my newborn can tell that's a gak diaper. Or something?

Did people suddenly get amnesia that Admech with planes caused a concession on turn 1 at the LGT a month ago?

Ork players need to stop thinking they're the only game in town. They released a quarterly update when they intended and added the Admech and DE point drops, because if they didn't people would freaking the feth out right now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Again...Admech flyers were a problem waaaay before Orks. Orks just got hit as a side-effect. The buggies were ALSO a problem and people should have been well aware of their capabilities by now.

The issue is not GW cracking down on obviously untended buggy spam. The issue is doing it the dumbest way possible.

GW explicitly introduced buggies as splitting squadrons to enable orks to play as many as they like, so people could run multiple with their limited FA slots. Then they go full surprise pikachu when people bring the best one 6-9 times and people use squadrons to get the most out of kustom jobs. With the new codex, they then tried to punish them for squadroning by removing the ability to split them up, force them to suffer from morale and ban people from using kustom jobs on big units. All to encourage running singles.
Except for the one buggy that sucked so badly that no one bought it outside of collectors, they buffed that one to the skies, broke their design paradigm of making indirect fire expensive in 9th and also let it keep one of the most powerful kustom jobs for good measure. Now that buggy was running rampant, and as a response to that they now force people to run ALL buggies in squadrons again.

None of that would be necessary if buggies weren't squadrons to begin with. Instead of cleaning up the mess they caused, we now just have dysfunktional pile of band-aids.

For feth's sake, if their vision for buggies is to have people run one of each buggy, write that into the gork-damned rules. Make it a buggy mob and make each buggy 0-1 and let them split up. Or do it like they did for the DG support characters, allowing any combination of 3 to sit in one slot. Or just make them singles, let the rule of 3 take care of it in fair way at all point levels. It's not like orks are hurting for CP to take outriders.

So yes, this is a complete knee-jerk. They killed off kustom jobs on five units to tackle one overpowered one. That's like nerfing every gravis unit in Codex:Space Marines because Eradicators are a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Again they already had admech points adjustment planned for next month. Nothing new from the last 6 months on admech flyers that entire time to have an emergency update except 1 tournament. After that ork win we get an emergency nerf 2 weeks later. I mean my toddler can follow this logic here.

Orks were the reason for this nerf. The side effect was releasing the already planned ad mech and drukari points changes earlier. In fact the only new nerfs were all ork related. No other army had nerfs that weren’t already planned. The entire emergency part was orks.

So you think they suddenly and urgently released a regular quarterly update that only specifically targets buggies, because an Ork list with flyers, buggies, and freebootas won a tournament? Even my newborn can tell that's a gak diaper. Or something?

Did people suddenly get amnesia that Admech with planes caused a concession on turn 1 at the LGT a month ago?

Ork players need to stop thinking they're the only game in town. They released a quarterly update when they intended and added the Admech and DE point drops, because if they didn't people would freaking the feth out right now.

So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?

Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?

Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.

Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.

Do I think this is the best approach? No. I would have preferred that no LOS units got some sort of malus alongside some other small tweaks, but this change is good enough without actually hurting the unit itself at all.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I might actually dust off my shokkjump dragstas to replace some scrapjets.

They certainly aren't a bad unit in terms of firepower, probably not far from the scrapjets against armoured targets. They're really fast too, even without the deep strike shenanigans.

Or Snazzwagons for that matter. I certainly won't turn my nose up at lots of S5 AP-2 D2 shots.

Honestly I think all the wagons are decent currently, it's just that scrapjets nosedrilled their way a little further than the competition. Wargamers being wargamers, they then got spammed. I took 2 units of four because I loved em and have been taking them in a lotta lists since they were released. I'll probably be using my KBB to fill the same roll.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?

Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.

Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.

Do I think this is the best approach? No. I would have preferred that no LOS units got some sort of malus alongside some other small tweaks, but this change is good enough without actually hurting the unit itself at all.

Rukks are good under any kulture. Certainly they don't gain much from certain kultures, but they aren't "terrible" as you say.

I completely agree that this is a knee jerk reaction, because otherwise why nerf all of the buggies? Rukkatrukks and Scrapjets were the only ones that needed nerfing, and now the other buggies suffer.

I think they will repeal the buggy limit as soon as they work out the best way to nerf the main offenders without crippling the others. Otherwise it's a bit like nerfing Sentinels because Leman Russes are too good, and makes no sense whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I might actually dust off my shokkjump dragstas to replace some scrapjets.

They certainly aren't a bad unit in terms of firepower, probably not far from the scrapjets against armoured targets. They're really fast too, even without the deep strike shenanigans.

Or Snazzwagons for that matter. I certainly won't turn my nose up at lots of S5 AP-2 D2 shots.

Honestly I think all the wagons are decent currently, it's just that scrapjets nosedrilled their way a little further than the competition. Wargamers being wargamers, they then got spammed. I took 2 units of four because I loved em and have been taking them in a lotta lists since they were released. I'll probably be using my KBB to fill the same roll.

I agree, Scrapjets are just too good at everything. I settled on Snazzwagons in the end over SJDs, they full the gaps in my list a bit better.

I mean a simple buggy fix would have been limiting them to 3 buggies total irrespective of unit size. Which means you can squadron them or single unit size and use the kustom jobs they obviously intended us to use.

I mean this still doesn’t fix the squigbuggy is to strong combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?

Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.

Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.

Do I think this is the best approach? No. I would have preferred that no LOS units got some sort of malus alongside some other small tweaks, but this change is good enough without actually hurting the unit itself at all.

Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.

gungo wrote:

Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.

*IF* they took a point hit that made them palatable under Freebootas THEN they would be bad under other kultures. I never said they were bad now, but they definitely benefit most in FB.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:

Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.

*IF* they took a point hit that made them palatable under Freebootas THEN they would be bad under other kultures. I never said they were bad now, but they definitely benefit most in FB.

The only point increase I can see them getting that makes them a bad choice under a kulture is one that makes the unit unplayable full stop. Like, making a rukkatrukk 200 points. Obviously this won't happen, and the rukkatrukk will remain to be good under basically every kulture. The only one that they don't gel with realistically is Evil Suns and that's generally because they don't really move around, and even then ES gives then the option to remain mobile while shooting at full capacity.

Something that caught my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.

Personally, I don't see those changes as particularly huge nerfs. They can be annoying to those who spammed heavily a few overtuned units though these were bound to be quickly plugged exploits due to their nature. I still think you can make excellent speed freak lists that will be able to compete at high level and the Alpha Strike list is completely intact.

epronovost wrote:
Something that cought my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.

It would have been better if they did something like buggies are 1 per unit, but they have the ability to squad up in deployment. That way you can be flexible in your unit selections without going overboard.

The squig buggies are good for triggering the freeboota trait honestly. If your opponent has anything reasonably squishy within range, out of LOS or not it's a prime target for the buggies.

epronovost wrote:
Something that caught my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.

Personally, I don't see those changes as particularly huge nerfs. They can be annoying to those who spammed heavily a few overtuned units though these were bound to be quickly plugged exploits due to their nature. I still think you can make excellent speed freak lists that will be able to compete at high level and the Alpha Strike list is completely intact.

Technically it’s harder to move 3 large base buggies in coherency. Ironically squigbuggies care the least about that.
Also there is some small issues w morale w 3 in list where you can roll poorly and losing the last buggy in a squad
There is also no more forcing your opponent to waste shots over killing a unit of 1.
Finally they made kustom jobs useless unless you only take 1 buggy. The vast majority of kustom jobs weren’t good enough even less so now.
The above issues nerf even the least useful buggy but overall they don’t do much but make list building annoying and convoluted.

epronovost wrote:
Something that caught my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.

Personally, I don't see those changes as particularly huge nerfs. They can be annoying to those who spammed heavily a few overtuned units though these were bound to be quickly plugged exploits due to their nature. I still think you can make excellent speed freak lists that will be able to compete at high level and the Alpha Strike list is completely intact.

The only buggy unit that could reasonably be run in units of 3 were squigbuggies, because they didn't need to move and get around terrain or other models - they sat and plunked shots around the board with a comfortable range of 36", and maybe shuffled a bit every so often. Every other buggy wants to move, and driving those huge bases around in groups of more than 2 is difficult to play around. But these vehicles are cheap, and you're likely to want more than just 1-2, but now the only way to do that is to field them in an immovable clump. Before, you could have had 3 separate units of 1, or a unit of 1 and a unit of 2. You can't do that anymore, so it's a nerf.

Still not convinced? Here's one particular example that's very obviously a nerf: Shokkjump Dragstas cannot conceivably teleport 2-3 of those bases and remain outside 9" of any enemy units unless the board is basically already clear, or you're teleporting into your own deployment zone where there are no enemy units. Easy enough work around was to take as many as you wanted as a single model unit, but now you can't. What do you tell people who owned even a single extra Dragsta? Sure, they can still drive them around as a unit of 2 as previously mentioned, but it's ruined one of their main utilities and just reduces them to "backup Skrapjets".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:

Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.

*IF* they took a point hit that made them palatable under Freebootas THEN they would be bad under other kultures. I never said they were bad now, but they definitely benefit most in FB.

You seem to have missed the point the main gun… the reason people take squigbuggies doesn’t even work with freebooter kultur. It already has a nonstackable +1 to hit on the main gun. I mean the best kultur for squigbuggies is really bloodaxe cause they can fall back and shoot. And it’s largely considered the worst all around kultur but only okay cause buggies are good.

It would be great if GW didn't write garbage internal balanced codexes so that buggies weren't the defacto units to build an army around...

0-1'ing all the buggies won't fix a damn thing

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?

Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.

Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.

*sigh*
This is the ork tactics thread, and you should adhere to its rules. Which includes not making up facts. Multiple clans besides freebootas, including deff skulls, evils suns, bloodaxes and bad moons have had top 10 placements in the last weeks with an overabundance of squigbuggies.

Freebootas are not part of the problem, and the ruin DID make buggies terrible for all cultures. Or in other words, you're flat out wrong.

And about that "consistent ruling", so you do agree that every single power armor unit should be nerfed if any single one of them is too good, correct?

Madjob wrote:
The only buggy unit that could reasonably be run in units of 3 were squigbuggies, because they didn't need to move and get around terrain or other models - they sat and plunked shots around the board with a comfortable range of 36", and maybe shuffled a bit every so often. Every other buggy wants to move, and driving those huge bases around in groups of more than 2 is difficult to play around. But these vehicles are cheap, and you're likely to want more than just 1-2, but now the only way to do that is to field them in an immovable clump. Before, you could have had 3 separate units of 1, or a unit of 1 and a unit of 2. You can't do that anymore, so it's a nerf.

That's a good point, I tend to play smaller games than the 2000 pts usual so traffic jam isn't such a big problem, but I must admit that squadrons are problematic for mobility purpose. A more refined rule could have been max 3 buggies of each type (either 1 group of 3 or three groups of 1) if you wanted to avoid spam. It brings almost the same result, but leaves a little bit more flexibility in army design.